Eye strain - Returned my 2019 16" Macbook Pro

[jerryk]

I wonder whether these issues are caused by the slower response time (and ghosting) that’s been reported.

Whenever anything moves, the blurriness caused by the slow response on these panels will look like you’ve lost focus, so your eyes are naturally working harder to try and maintain it (to no avail).

It’s frustrating to me that the panels haven’t matched the quality and capabilities of the iPad Pro from 4 or 5 years ago. A real disappointment.

iPad Pros have very good displays and high refresh rates (120 Hz). But from a budget stand point they can spend quite a bit on the display since their is no keyboard, trackpad, Intel processor, limited display size, etc. And a good configured iPad pro runs the same or more than a laptop.

I would love to use my iPad Pro for all my work, but the bottom line is I can't because of the lack of an Intel processor and associated software.

 

[Evilxardas]

iPad Pros have very good displays and high refresh rates (120 Hz). But from a budget stand point they can spend quite a bit on the display since their is no keyboard, trackpad, Intel processor, limited display size, etc. And a good configured iPad pro runs the same or more than a laptop.

I would love to use my iPad Pro for all my work, but the bottom line is I can't because of the lack of an Intel processor and associated software.

In my case i had zero problems with the iphone X and ipad air 2, but i had problems with ipad pro 10.5, MBA 2018 and MBP 16"!
But i've discovered 1 month ago that i have a little bit of astigmatism and a small esophoria. Now i've fixed astigmatism and i can use "bad"devices with low synthomps. I would try again the MBP 16"and see if now i could use it!
I would try to fix also the esophoria but it's not easy.

 

[jerryk]

In my case i had zero problems with the iphone X and ipad air 2, but i had problems with ipad pro 10.5, MBA 2018 and MBP 16"!
But i've discovered 1 month ago that i have a little bit of astigmatism and a small esophoria. Now i've fixed astigmatism and i can use "bad"devices with low synthomps. I would try again the MBP 16"and see if now i could use it!
I would try to fix also the esophoria but it's not easy.

And it gets worth as we age. Once you get into your late 30s you start noticing subtle presbyopia,
"farsightedness caused by loss of elasticity of the lens of the eye, occurring typically in middle and old age.". It sucks, but better than dying to stop aging.

I am at the point now where I have prescription "computer glasses" designed for work further than 6 inches but closer than 3 feet from your eyes.

 

[spencermfi]

We must have similar eyes biologically, because I also felt discomfort on the iPhone X. On the X, I have to use the color filter feature in accessibility to make it bearable.

When you mention how your external display also gives you the same problem connected to the MBP16, it really makes me believe it's a display driver issue. It would be really interesting to see if the problem goes away if you bootcamp Windows on it.

The PWM issues with the X (and XS, XS Max and 11 Pro and 11 Pro Max) are pretty well documented. There's definitely a subset of people that have a sensitivity to it.

I suspect that whatever's happening with the MBP16", while it's not PWM, is affecting my eyes/brain the same way.

With the MBP16, I ended up returning it - just couldn't bear the discomfort, and didn't have time to install and run bootcamp (would have had to disable the license on my other machine etc etc). I also figured that even if Windows could resolve it (by disabling dithering or trying other drivers), I'd have an overpriced Windows laptop. The good news is, I've grown to re-appreciate my 2013 15" MBP which is still chugging along just fine (and not causing me any headaches).

 

[max1575]

I also have the same problem with eye strain. And it's definitely display drivers issue since I experienced same symptoms on MPB 16 and external Dell 2414h which I use with Windows (I also tried a couple of 27" displays and none of them was comfortable either). When using Dell 2414h with Windows, everything is perfect, I can spend hours working with it without any problems with eyes. I have iPad Pro 12.8 and it's also perfect, no eye strain even when reading in darkness. Tried MBP 15 and it seems to be fine too.

When reading text on MBP 16 or trying to focus on some text elements, I have a peripheral vision feeling that text is shaking/fluttering just an inch or two from focus point. Looks like I'm not the only one who experiences this as I read about same symptoms from another person on this forum.

Actually, after spending even 5 minutes in front of MBP 16, I feel like I've been swimming in an over chlorinated swimming pool without swimming glasses.

Also ghosting adds more discomfort to overall feeling. In general I feel huge disappointment about this purchase. A 3k+ thing shouldn't work like this.

Since I've missed 2 weeks return time, I have the only way to sell it as used one and loose money.

 

[Evilxardas]

The PWM issues with the X (and XS, XS Max and 11 Pro and 11 Pro Max) are pretty well documented. There's definitely a subset of people that have a sensitivity to it.

I suspect that whatever's happening with the MBP16", while it's not PWM, is affecting my eyes/brain the same way.

With the MBP16, I ended up returning it - just couldn't bear the discomfort, and didn't have time to install and run bootcamp (would have had to disable the license on my other machine etc etc). I also figured that even if Windows could resolve it (by disabling dithering or trying other drivers), I'd have an overpriced Windows laptop. The good news is, I've grown to re-appreciate my 2013 15" MBP which is still chugging along just fine (and not causing me any headaches).

MBP16 use PWM like all Apple's notebooks:

 

[matram]

The PWM switch frequency is 131 kHz. One of the highest in the industry and well beyond what your eyes should be able to react to.

 

[-Shock-]

The PWM switch frequency is 131 kHz. One of the highest in the industry and well beyond what your eyes should be able to react to.

Beat me to it. I tried to find the research paper that referenced the upper limit for human detection, IIRC it is 5000hz. The annoying low frequency OLED PWM on phones is typically 120-250hz which is quite different.
Around 80hz the human eye can even perceive the flicker.

 

[Annv]

Sorry for posting this in the MacBook section, but I have similar problems with the iMac. So I wonder if the strain could be due to temporal dithering / graphic drivers of macOS, and all/many models are affected?

I have an eyestrain and nervous strain (sort of pressure in the forefront and, sometimes, dizziness). And after a couple of hours at the iMac my eyes suddenly start feeling very tired. They seem to be performing a hard work trying to concentrate on the image.

I've applied many different tweaks and somewhat reduced the strain to an almost bearable level, but it is still there. On the other hand, I feel much better, and the image feels more stable, when I boot the computer in safe mode. The same iMac in BootCamp also feels better. It's my first Mac, and I have never had anything like that with any other screen, including iPhone or iPad.

(Please see the signature for the models I have.)

 

[turbineseaplane]

The PWM switch frequency is 131 kHz. One of the highest in the industry and well beyond what your eyes should be able to react to.

Beat me to it. I tried to find the research paper that referenced the upper limit for human detection, IIRC it is 5000hz. The annoying low frequency OLED PWM on phones is typically 120-250hz which is quite different.
Around 80hz the human eye can even perceive the flicker.

All of that sounds good and reasonable, but something about these displays is bothering people, myself included.

If it isn’t this - what else do we think it might be?

 

[Evilxardas]

All of that sounds good and reasonable, but something about these displays is bothering people, myself included.

If it isn’t this - what else do we think it might be?

I don't think that is a display panel problem. If you try to use an external monitor you will find the same problem. It should be a driver / OS problem.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I don't think that is a display panel problem. If you try to use an external monitor you will find the same problem. It should be a driver / OS problem.

hmm.
Does that square with people that are using 2015 models also on Catalina with no issue?

Are you saying that the specific drivers for the newer hardware are the issue?

 

[max1575]

Sorry for posting this in the MacBook section, but I have similar problems with the iMac. So I wonder if the strain could be due to temporal dithering / graphic drivers of macOS, and all/many models are affected?

I have an eyestrain and nervous strain (sort of pressure in the forefront and, sometimes, dizziness). And after a couple of hours at the iMac my eyes suddenly start feeling very tired. They seem to be performing a hard work trying to concentrate on the image.

I've applied many different tweaks and somewhat reduced the strain to an almost bearable level, but it is still there. On the other hand, I feel much better, and the image feels more stable, when I boot the computer in safe mode. The same iMac in BootCamp also feels better. It's my first Mac, and I have never had anything like that with any other screen, including iPhone or iPad.

(Please see the signature for the models I have.)

What OS is installed on your iMac, Catalina or Mojave? I'm going to switch to iMac 2019 with Mojave instead of MBP16. iMac display with Mojave looked much comfortable for eyes when I checked it in a local store. Maybe, I'd to spend more time with it, but there was a big difference anyway.

 

[turbineseaplane]

What OS is installed on your iMac, Catalina or Mojave? I'm going to switch to iMac 2019 with Mojave instead of MBP16. iMac display with Mojave looked much comfortable for eyes when I checked it in a local store. Maybe, I'd to spend more time with it, but there was a big difference anyway.

Please do share your findings.

I’d love to know if there is something to this.

 

[Annv]

What OS is installed on your iMac, Catalina or Mojave? I'm going to switch to iMac 2019 with Mojave instead of MBP16. iMac display with Mojave looked much comfortable for eyes when I checked it in a local store. Maybe, I'd to spend more time with it, but there was a big difference anyway.

I have Catalina 10.15.3. It was more or less the same under Mojave and High Sierra. I was upgrading all the time hoping for better drivers.

I felt some relief thanks to a few tweaks only:
Color profile — HD 709-A.
Resolution — default for display: 2560x1440 HiDPI
Color depth — Millions of colors (with SwitchResX)
I also switched off automatic brightness, font smoothing and all possible animations.

Neither did I have any strain when I checked the iMac in the store before ordering it. The screen was a bit too bright and too glossy, but nothing worrying.

Recently I've been looking for a replacement, and the 16-inch MBP caused some light dizziness immediately, even in the store. Might be also because it's not shipped with its native resolution, as discussed above in this thread, but I did not play with resolutions in the store. I liked 13-inch MacBook more, but I'm hesitating about sticking to Mac at all, as I do not understand the reasons behind this strain.

 

[danwestbrook]

Glad I’m not the only one facing issues too. As mentioned earlier it really does feel like you’ve been swimming without goggles on! Hoping Apple release a fix for this soon and will try some of the suggestions posted before and report back if it helps.

 

[diopit]

I advise anybody with these symptoms to visit LED Strain (https://ledstrain.org) and read the years of information regarding these issues.

I haven’t been able to use any Mac product since 2015. I currently have strain with MacOS/Windows10/any major Linux distribution/Nintendo Switch/Smart TV apps/iOS and android smartphones.

Even connecting above devices to an old LCD CCFL monitor causes issues, it isn’t the panel at fault, it’s the seemingly mass adoption by the tech industry of temporal dithering/sub pixel rendering to make everything look as good as 10bit on our 6/8bit monitors and to reduce banding artifacts. However it is noted in dithering patents and in recent microscopic tests that the dither algorithms could create a ‘pseudo 15hz’ flicker on a user’s display, obviously causing major discomfort.

As there is no user controllable way to switch this off, this is in many respects not just an annoyance but a real health issue.

My eyes are fine, I adopt 20/20/20, correct refresh rate, correct resolution, fonts are correct, lighting is correct. I can use a 10 year old machine for 12+hours but anything new causes issue within 20 minutes.

Apple and the rest of these companies have some explaining to do.

 

[Sanpete]

Apple and the rest of these companies have some explaining to do.

Looks like you already explained it. Maybe they should include a warning similar to the allergy warnings food makers put on food with peanuts? Though this isn't quite like anaphylactic shock in acute effects.

 

[turbineseaplane]

@diopit

Where on this scale of things are the 2015 MacBook Pro's?

 

[diopit]

@diopit

Where on this scale of things are the 2015 MacBook Pro's?

I personally haven’t used one however at the time I started getting symptoms I had just purchased a late 2013 21” iMac w/GTX750M graphics. I was on the latest (2015) software at the time. Since then I have upgraded several Mac Mini’s (late 2012 Intel) to Catalina and there is still discomfort across devices. YMMV, though.

Looks like you already explained it. Maybe they should include a warning similar to the allergy warnings food makers put on food with peanuts? Though this isn't quite like anaphylactic shock in acute effects.

I agree, with video games we have had disclaimers forever. However this happens when simply using the machine (even staring into a solid color background will be uncomfortable after a few minutes). Also it is very easy to live your life never eating peanuts again.The same can’t be said for technology.

 

[yesanton]

I have been struggling with this issue for a while.

Here is the story of all my devices that I tried in the last couple of years:

Macbook pro 2016 15
MacBook Pro 2017 13
MacBook Pro 2017 13 Touch bar
MacBook Pro 2014 15 (full specs)
MacBook Air 2015
MacBook Pro 2013 late --- all give me headache

Iphone XS --- the most headache
Iphone SE --- the least headache (stil present)
iPhone 6s
iPhone 8

Samsung galaxy book (OLED) - headache
Samsung Tab s3 (Oled) - NO headache

DELL XPS 15 4k 2016 with Nvidia - was awesome but faulty hardware
Microsoft Book 2 (15 inch) - bad, but with settings fixable (read below)
Lenovo Thinkpad - so-so

google pixel 2 - awesome for eyes
samsung s8 - awesome

It all started when I was starting to do filmmaking and my HP laptop wasn't powerful enough:
I bought a Macbook pro 2016 15 and started happily using premiere pro. But after a few days, I realised (quite surprisingly) that I cannot focus in real life normally anymore. If I look at the window or the mirror, my eyes focus somewhat weirdly on something else. I thought I am loosing my eyes or something. than I realised that it was actually new MacBook that I had hardest time focusing on. I sent it back.

than I had a DELL XPS 15 4k 2016 with Nvidia card, it was a faulty item (was rebooting all the time) but it was excellent for the eyes as I remember. I sent it back.

After that I tried all other MacBooks that I purchased in different ways (I love operating system so I tried so many times in hopes it will work), all of them give me a sensation that my eyes need extra work to focus on the screen and that they get tired in like 2 min. If I spend time with MacBook for 10 min or so, going out for a walk still feels bad, in terms of headache, or blurry vision.

In between I got tested and prescribed glasses, I got them, but for MacBook they do not bring any effect (I see clearer, but after a few min, everything becomes blurry again)

I tried to install Windows on the MacBooks, it does make fonts less blurry, but generally still giving same problems.

I tried iPhones, the worst is iPhone XS, and the best is maybe Iphone SE, but still none is great for eyes.

I tried Microsoft device, and while it gave me similar story effect (of giving headache) I tried different settings, and one helped a lot, but made laptop unusable. If I go to the settings and disable the graphics driver, the standard driver will be used. it is extremely slow, but right away makes screen clear and not blurry. WEIRD!

I use Thinkpad for work with windows, it is bearable but still the effect is present. I tried to use it with linux and it was much better. I think with linux it is great for eyes.

Android smartphones - pixel 2, and s8 are excellent for eyes. I could stare for ages without any bad effect. Samsung tab s3 is also great for eyes. while the Samsung galaxy book, gives same effect as Microsoft device.

I also tried to use external screens, and for all MacBooks it gives me headache anyway.

If I can solve this mistery and find a device I can use without headache I will be in the 7th heaven, as my work and a lot of hobbies completely depend on computers. But computers make me sick.

 

[iandk]

I only have this issue with the new MBP 16" and only the internal display.
Reading text or seeing moving objects on this panel is just horrible.

Will definitely return and hope they'll put a proper panel in the next update

 

[garrel]

I don't think we need warnings, although it would be better than nothing. I tend to think of this as a political problem. Companies should be forced to provide solutions for such invalidating issues. The most worrying aspect: the many workers who are stuck at work with this tech and can't just get away or buy something different. Also users don't read forums. They just deal with problems like this underestimating, or blaming themselves, continuing using their stuff (because you've spent a lot and then you can't afford anything different and you need to work or for your everyday life or what else...). We don't know the long term damage, there is no literature about this.
It's not just Apple. But the most ridiculous thing is that they could simply provide a way to disable temporal dithering. And make it clear that there is this possibility. It should be just a line of code... They simply couldn't care less.

About temporal dithering: anyone has proof or knows if the standard driver use it? I remember experimenting no strain during the initialization process(setup and stuff...), but immediate strain after the desktop appeared the first time. As far as i know bios and setup or diagnostic screens just don't load the card driver.

 

[Sanpete]

The political problem, if you view it in those terms, is that this affects only a very small portion of users, so you can expect solutions to be a low priority.

Might be more involved than an on/off command to disable temporal dithering. May be pretty well integrated into the processes that use it.

 

[garrel]

The political problem, if you view it in those terms, is that this affects only a very small portion of users, so you can expect solutions to be a low priority.

Might be more involved than an on/off command to disable temporal dithering. May be pretty well integrated into the processes that use it.

I don't know in your country, but where i live politics is often concerned also about minorities.

You don't have any data that sustain your claims. It could be a small portion of users or a relevant percentage. The vast majority of users don't read forums and just do nothing, and even here several users are affected.

Law should protect the working class. In this case, avoiding tech that could harm even 1 worker. Forcing companies to investigate or providing strict requirements for working places.
You add a option if you risk to lose thousand and thousand of orders from other companies.

And even in the case you're right and it is a very small portion, who would care for such a small issue? A multibillion dollar company or Consumer's rights associations?
You're right in a way. This is a small priority for apple(and other companies...). That's the reason why we who are affected should act in some way.

And no. There is nothing more involved. You can disable temporal dithering and the only downside could be less vibrant colors.