Eye strain - Returned my 2019 16" Macbook Pro

[diopit]

It has already been done. Google Amulet Hotkey, they provide enterprise-grade virtualisation solutions. They have developed a kext to disable temporal dithering on Mac. In their documentation it states that it is enabled by default in MacOS with no user controllable way to disable it. The caveat; you need Amulet’s hardware to be able to use the kext. However as it is their IP it is not publicly available on any website.

I can appreciate why a few posters here are bemused; I mean why would anybody without symptoms be aware of this issue at all? Some might even accuse us of Apple hating. However this is also an issue on Windows PC’s/Games consoles et al. I had to sell my £2000 iMac at a loss due to this issue, so this is not a trivial matter whatsoever.

 

[diopit]

If anybody doubts how many/how long users have been affected by this, visit LED Strain and browse the archives.

I also tried to resolve my iMac issue with Apple support but I didn’t know about temporal dithering at the time. LED Strain and posts such as these reassure me that I am not alone with this issue. Would there be prejudice on a similar thread regarding photosensitive epilepsy? Nope. Silicon Valley would bend over backwards to accommodate those users. I am not suggesting that I am getting those type of effects from technology nor downplaying the seriousness of that condition.

About a decade or so ago Apple had similar claims regarding the ‘millions of colours’ on their new devices, and it is believed dithering was used to make it look 8bit. The thing is, with temporal dithering enabled, even a low quality 6bpc display would look as vibrant as 10bit. In testing between an 8bit display with temporal dithering and a genuine 10bit display, they are virtually indistinguishable. It is still a ‘down and dirty’ method to generate more colours, and by it’s very nature relies on flicker for the user to see the intermediate colours.

 

[Sanpete]

A kext may be a lot more involved than a command line, but the existence of such a thing nonetheless suggests Apple could supply a way for users to turn off temporal dithering if they wanted to badly enough, since someone else has figured out how to do it. Assuming their method didn't cause unacceptable side effects. Has anyone with this issue actually tried it?

Haven't noticed anyone expressing bemusement or accusations of Apple hating about this lately, nor prejudice, downplaying the effects etc.

I've browsed the LED strain site before, which is one reason I said what you're evidently responding to about how few are affected by this, i.e. non-PWM-related eye strain issues such as just described here. Very few are affected, a small fraction of the number affected by PWM, which is itself a small fraction of those who use screens.

Again, those affected by this with Apple equipment should be talking to Apple support about it if you think it's temporal dithering. If you don't get an adequately knowledgeable response you can normally escalate the case until someone who has some idea about it is able to address it, which will also raise awareness within Apple.

 

[garrel]

Sure! We can close this topic and address these concerns to Apple! Good idea!

Anyway, since my last post has been deleted, i’ve nothing against you and I’m sorry if i’ve misunderstood some of your words.
But it should be pointed out that we don’t actually know how many users are affected since many tend to blame themselves before questioning hardware, and try different solutions like glasses, screen protectors etc. then it’s not apple only. Windows, consoles, phones, tablets...
if you’re experimenting fan noise you don’t question for a second your hearing, so it’s hardware/software.
In this case, for obvious reasons, things are a little different.

Then there are few cases reported, no literature about it, and what we know is because of the efforts by the community. Why should they care? Intel said “we investigated and found nothing so closed topic and never ask again”. We can only hope that somehow this begins to get reports by tech press.

 

[Sanpete]

You can talk to Apple and talk here too.

People question themselves because it is so uncommon. It was the same with PWM, which is widely accepted as causing real problems for some people now. What's what doesn't become clear until enough people get involved and get enough information to impress someone to look into it. Lots of grad students could do a proper study if a few people who are sure it's a problem agree to be studied. If it's fewer people than with PWM, as it appears to be, it will be that much harder to demonstrate, but it can be done with a little tech savvy and double-blind testing.

 

[diopit]

What I don’t understand is why the sudden insistence on temporal dithering by the industry? This isn’t just on Apple products but everywhere.

Every other aspect of display control is available on computers (color depth/gamma/refresh rate) but not dithering. Why is this? I don’t want ‘fake 10bit’ color, I want to see what my monitor natively supports, with banding if that’s what it takes. I’d rather have some banding, a slightly less vibrant color palette, but more importantly, a usable machine with no unnecessary sources of flicker. (Which is precisely what PWM is as well).

 

[matram]

For Apples target customers, color accuracy is an important attribute. Apple will give that priority if the negative consequences only affect a small fraction of their customers.

Your only solution is to look for another manufacturer that has decided on other priorities.

 

[garrel]

For Apples target customers, color accuracy is an important attribute. Apple will give that priority if the negative consequences only affect a small fraction of their customers.

Your only solution is to look for another manufacturer that has decided on other priorities.

It's an industry standard nowadays. Not only apple.

No one here is trying to suggest a standard configuration without dithering. Just a disable function. Since it's mainly an health problem it should be addressed. This is the minimum.

Posts like yours sounds like "yeah don't like it? search somewhere else. this is just the way it is". But you don't know what you're talking about, because you couldn't say such thing if you knew, believe me.

Instead we pretend. And we have all the right to do so.

 

[diopit]

For Apples target customers, color accuracy is an important attribute. Apple will give that priority if the negative consequences only affect a small fraction of their customers.

Your only solution is to look for another manufacturer that has decided on other priorities.

We just want the option to disable dithering. Leave the current configuration as it is so that 99% of customers are happy, but just bury a dither toggle in advanced options or via a terminal command. It’s a win/win, only those that need that option will ever use it, and macs out of the box will look the same as they do now.

 

[Sanpete]

Has anyone tried the method of disabling dithering mentioned above?

 

[diopit]

Has anyone tried the method of disabling dithering mentioned above?

I can’t see a method above, unless a post was deleted?

 

[Sanpete]

The method is the one you described as already done above. Has anyone actually tried it, or any other method of disabling temporal dithering?

It has already been done. Google Amulet Hotkey, they provide enterprise-grade virtualisation solutions. They have developed a kext to disable temporal dithering on Mac.

 

[yesanton]

The method is the one you described as already done above. Has anyone actually tried it, or any other method of disabling temporal dithering?

Is there anyone who successfully disabled dithering with Amulet Hotkey software? I saw they offer on their website both mac and windows disabling drivers. but you need to own some hardware from them and ask them directly.

I attached their pdf.

here is also some discussion about the topic

 

[diopit]

Is there anyone who successfully disabled dithering with Amulet Hotkey software? I saw they offer on their website both mac and windows disabling drivers. but you need to own some hardware from them and ask them directly.

I attached their pdf.

here is also some discussion about the topic

I emailed them a few months ago to try an obtain a copy of the kext but they wouldn’t budge unless I provided a serial number/proof I was a customer.

It still demonstrates that a) it has been done and b) there are legitimate reasons why dithering may need to be disabled.

Apple support won’t help an individual, maybe somebody on this forum who is a Mac wizard can help us out.

 

[esaelias187]

funnily I had some eye strain the same feeling I have when I had my iPhone 11 Pro which I gave back like a funny tickle feeling in the middle of my head but how can a led screen do this? I have an iPhone 8 which works fine and doesn't cause this ?
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is the previous 15.4 screen and new 16 inch screen use the same technology?

 

[Sanpete]

Apple support won’t help an individual

Have you talked to Apple support about this issue in connection with temporal dithering?

is the previous 15.4 screen and new 16 inch screen use the same technology?

Yes.

 

[esaelias187]

Have you talked to Apple support about this issue in connection with temporal dithering?

Yes.

so I should not be having eye strains as the previous one wa fine on my eyes

 

[yesanton]

what if we try to find a developer who is experienced with kernel extensions for mac, and can program disabling dithering?

we could hire someone on upwork?

if Amulet hotkey did it, it should be possible to do right?

 

[Sanpete]

so I should not be having eye strains as the previous one wa fine on my eyes

It suggests your trouble isn't related to temporal dithering, nor PWM, as that's at a ridiculously high frequency for the 16". The resolution has changed slightly, could possibly be related to that, though it's a very small difference. Or it could be that your screen resolution setting is different and bothering you more.

 

[esaelias187]

It suggests your trouble isn't related to temporal dithering, nor PWM, as that's at a ridiculously high frequency for the 16". The resolution has changed slightly, could possibly be related to that, though it's a very small difference. Or it could be that your screen resolution setting is different and bothering you more.

how can MacBook Pro have Pwm when it isn't oled?

 

[Sanpete]

PWM isn't limited to OLED.

 

[esaelias187]

PWM isn't limited to OLED.

so iphone 8 etc all got them?

 

[Sanpete]

so iphone 8 etc all got them?

I don't know. You'd have to google that.

 

[matram]

how can MacBook Pro have Pwm when it isn't oled?

Basically all displays use PWM as the mechanism to adjust brightness by changing the duty cycle.

As OLED reacts more slowly compared to LED, it is switched at a lower frequency and therefore becomes noticeable.

 

[0837990]

Basically all displays use PWM as the mechanism to adjust brightness by changing the duty cycle.

As OLED reacts more slowly compared to LED, it is switched at a lower frequency and therefore becomes noticeable.

Not true. Most displays that are of good quality use DC for dimming. DC is flickerless.

My Lenovo P1 Gen 2 1080P/500nit uses DC. My LG 27GL850 uses DC.My BenQ SW270C uses DC. None of them need scaling either, and all look great as a result at normal viewing distances. I’m personally avoiding any display that need some sort of scaling or PWM to work.These displays work far better for my eyes than the MacBook Pro 2018 15” ever did.