The graphics cards (in the configuration on the website) is the FirePro W9000 (or Apple-only custom cards although I doubt it) because of the # of SPs and the bandwidth. However, if they are W9000s, they appear to be underclocked on the core (by ~12.5%), since two W9000s give 8 TFLOPS instead of 7.
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FirePro in New Mac Pro is FirePro W9000
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Still means nothing. You know Apple for how long? They get their chips much cheaper than MSRP since they buy in bulk, and sell them back to you, in a fancy wrapped aluminum case for much more than average PC market price. They always do. Always.
I think part of the point is that you dedicate one card to your video (support the glory of 3x4K monitors) and the other for computation.
No, he said up to 12-core CPU configuration.
He specifically said that the Mac Pro comes standard with dual workstation GPU's.
However, they probably aren't W9000 class. Could be W7000.
The "up to" for graphics came when talked about top end TFLOP performance. For all of the major performance/function categories there was an "up to" stuck in there somewhere. A major presentation theme was the contrast between size and max "horsepower" available. Talking about the lower hurdles doesn't maximize the contrast.
Yeah, entry level is not going to be W9000 class.
Don't be silly
The new Mac Pro will start around $2499 just like the current model. It will start with the base configuration, probably a 4 core Xeon, 4gb RAM, 128 GB SSD and 2 entry level AMD FirePros starting around 1gb VRAM a piece. Likely there will be an additional configuration level around $3799 where the 12-core Xeon is offered along with a number of options not available on the base configuration. Then, there will likely also be a server option starting around $1999.
How do I figure? Because that is the current price and configuration structure. While historically Apple has made minor price adjustments when introducing a redesign ($100 price adjust ment for the unibody Mac Mini when it was introduced) but it won't be a massive change.
The new Mac Pro will start around $2499 just like the current model. It will start with the base configuration, probably a 4 core Xeon, 4gb RAM, 128 GB SSD and 2 entry level AMD FirePros starting around 1gb VRAM a piece. Likely there will be an additional configuration level around $3799 where the 12-core Xeon is offered along with a number of options not available on the base configuration. Then, there will likely also be a server option starting around $1999.
How do I figure? Because that is the current price and configuration structure. While historically Apple has made minor price adjustments when introducing a redesign ($100 price adjust ment for the unibody Mac Mini when it was introduced) but it won't be a massive change.
Yeah, the Mac Pro page at Apple.com says "up to 6GB" VRAM per card. And Phil said "384-bit bus" in his preso. So clearly something W9000 class will be available at the top BUT there will be lower end versions.
Way too wimpy. The top standard iMac "mobile" GPU (GT675MX) almost outclasses a W5000. Pulling the excessive profit margin out of the Wx000 mainstream offerings is far more critical to success than trying to spin doctor a pitch "slower than iMac's" GPU cards.
The standard W5000 only has 2 display port outputs and a max 3 displays. They'll need more than that to pump multiple display port outputs into 3 different TB controllers which each need a minimum of two. There technically 7 display outputs on the upcoming Mac Pro 6 TB which can be put into DisplayPort v1.2 mode and the HDMI one. Six is less than seven.
No. Getting the costs of the other higher level cards under control so can deliver higher value at a lower price point is far more critical to Mac Pro success or not.
[ some margin added to these component prices . ]
4 core Xeon E5 v2 1620 ~ $300
8 GB DIMMs (4 x 2GB ) ~ $100 [they have to fill 4 slots and 1GB DIMMs are going to be more rare. That's just too lame since even entry level iMacs comes with 8GB. 4GB is what Mac minis come with. That is a joke. ]
256GB SSD ~300 ( rMBP has same size. Too small and Apple's complete lack of SATA drives support becomes a bullseye )
That is only about $700 so far. Throw in another $400 for rest of the system excluding GPU cards and only at $1,100. So still have a $1,400 to play with. street price on W7000 is $700. 2x $1,400. Hence $2,500 (i.e. $2499 )
If Apple can shave the price down on their W7000 equivalent to $600-625 that likely covers any shortfall on my $400 cover on other system components. (and/or a bit of an under mark-up on the 1620. Apple probably charges a bit more that is little too greedy to bust the $2,499 price point. But then again maybe $2,599).
The W5000 is a $100-120 card being sold at a $400 price point. The value proposition just isn't going to be there relative to other $2,200-2499 iMacs.
Highly doubtful.. The 12 core Xeon itself is likely in the $1800-2100 range just by itself. Throw on top Apples 30% mark up on top of that you'll be looking at at 2,340 plus increment. So added to base price of $2,499 + 2,340 ==> 4,899 is probably around minimum.
For 3,799 probably still at 6 core 1660 and maybe a step up on the GPUs to the mid range offerings in the W8000 range.
I doubt it. With the system costs so heavily weighted on GPUs not sure there is going to be a server option. Even if so it will more likely be same structure as the Mac Mini (and current Mac Pro ) where server is actually above the entry level. (e.g., perhaps two 256GB SSD (or one 512GB ) to drive up the costs or more RAM or something in addition to the pre-installed Server app. )
You're stuck with a server with 7 video outputs which is highly abnormal. It is doubtful the pricing is going to make alot of sense in term of being under the entry level. If there was a GPU card the could toss then perhaps that would make sense but the design constraints probably don't allow for that since have to provision so many TB sockets.
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I would love to be wrong about this, but this is Apple that we are talking about. The same company that is offering the AMD 5770 as the base Mac Pro card. This card was a joke when they first introduced it to the Mac Pro line and yet, they are still charging $250 for it. I prefer to base my opinions on the historical standard and not hope that Apple will suddenly change its ways.
GL
I'm with you on this completely except for the server option. That just doesn't make any sense at all with the new form factor. There's nobody would would be better served by a MP6,1 server than a Mac Mini Server. Nobody. Full Stop. It's a market that does not exist.
Exactly. Nobody is looking to buy an OS X Server that can drive 4K displays but can't hold a single hard drive.
I think you will be wrong about this. The outdated 5770 situation was just evidence that Apple had given up trying to impress with the MP... it was limping along, available to those who needed it, but obviously falling behind. The cylinder mac is their "new great thing" that they want to blow minds with. Their whole philosophy on this thing is GPU+GPU = GOLD! So if they cheap out on that, it will be a betrayal of their very goal in creating this machine.
There is nothing to prevent people from adding OSX server to it, but I'm not sure how it would make any kind of sense when you're lacking ways to push large amounts of data through it. It isn't much more functional than the mini here. Anyone that says thunderbolt should consider the total configuration required to serve 5 or so machines and maybe a website or ftp server.
I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find the W5000s are still the entry level option, despite their price. Seems like a decent margin to make up for some cost cutting in the more expensive configs where the profit margin will be narrowed.
Also, I agree that the 12-core Xeon won't be available for the $3799 price point but that will be the model you will have to choose if you want that option.
Finally, don't be too sure about the server thing. The server option won't focus on the display capabilities of the machine but rather the GPU compute power. Just look up the S10000 that was just announced. A GPU powerhouse designed specifically for server graphics. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that 10.9 Server comes bundled with a new version of Xgrid to enable GPU compute across multiple servers.
Also, I agree that the 12-core Xeon won't be available for the $3799 price point but that will be the model you will have to choose if you want that option.
Finally, don't be too sure about the server thing. The server option won't focus on the display capabilities of the machine but rather the GPU compute power. Just look up the S10000 that was just announced. A GPU powerhouse designed specifically for server graphics. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that 10.9 Server comes bundled with a new version of Xgrid to enable GPU compute across multiple servers.
Not necessarily. I know Adobe offers partial support in OpenCL in at least Premiere Pro CS6. With full support coming soon. I expect more software venders doing this too.
The price is just Apple's policy. Apple doesn't have a glut of inventory so they have little to no incentive to have fire sales on price.
But dropping down to a W5000 would be a sudden change. The 5770 was a mid range card when introduced; not an entry level one. It sagged in relatively market performance a bit because Apple waited till the end of the 5770 release product cycle to drop it into the then new Mac Pro ( 5770 came out Oct 13, 2009 just 7 months after the 2009 Mac Pro. By time Mac Pro 2010 came out (July) the 6870 was not released (October). So it got a 2009 card.
While AMD chart may tag the W5000 as mid range
http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/Pages/product-comparison.aspx
that is a bit of a joke. Most of the stuff in their entry level section is old as dirt. Like almost 5770 old. (2009-2011 era stuff). One of the newer ones V3900 (feb 2012 ) is an underclocked variant of some of this older stuff.
Frankly it is a bunch of hocus pocus to try to justify selling the $400 W5000 when the roughly equivalent mainstream card of that sells for $150-170 street pricing.
The 5770 was a better entry card relatively speaking that the previous 2009 Mac Pro's GT120 was.
Kneecapping the Mac Pro isn't going to help them sell more Mac Pros. If they are going to keep the price the same Apple needs to put more value into the boxes. Even more so when it is pragmatically not upgradable card.
That means whether the Mac Pro holds value over time is based in part with what ships with.
As I pointed out in another post they can fit the W7000 almost at street prices as long as not goughing on other Mac Pro components. If can shave 20% off street for W7000 it actually fits and generates Apple their usaual tidy profit. A W5000 can't even drive all of the display outputs they put on the box. It is lame even up against the Mac Pro's design criteria.
Unless talking 5 concurrent users on transferring large files, that's Mac Mini level. In their XServe transition guide
www.apple.com/xserve/pdf/L422277A_Xserve_Guide.pdf
Apple pegged at mac mini at the double digit user range. And that was an old core 2 duo.
The Mac Pro would be more functional than the mini as bandwidth demands went up. Three TB controllers (and no video traffic to get in the way) is going to have pretty good bandwidth cap over a Mac Mini.
Not really. The lowest level drivers are not Apple's responsibility. Sure they could pick up the phone or drive over to Santa Clara and bark at the AMD/Nvidia folks to try to move faster...... but 3rd part vendors could release cards updates if the GPU package vendors updated the low level drivers.
Apple only really gets deeply involved in the process when they update the Mac Pro and they just were not motivated in 2010-2011. Probably for a variety of reason but at least one of them was probably that Mac Pro wasn't growing like other Macs (before the lull in updates from Intel ).
The 3rd party graphics card market was bit disfunctional because if any one implementing vendor put in the extra work that was quickly hijacked by others and ROI would go down. So few were highly motivated.
It isn't gold as much as it more uniform with what the other > $1,400 Macs have been doing for years now. But having two GPUs standard isn't new at all in the Mac lineup.
There is little to nothing in the XServe App bundle that promotes this. You could not install any server stuff at all and run a remote command line batch job to do grunt work that leveraged the GPUs.
If the difference is just the hardware BTO configuration there is no reason to create another product SKU with special software bundle , support classification, and separate BTO parameters.
That is far more aimed at supercomputer nodes which tend to be able to better deal with higher than average power consumers.
Xgrid was axed over about a year ago.
http://lists.apple.com/archives/xgrid-users/2012/Jul/msg00012.html
It isn't coming back. There is no way they would tell eveyone to go away an then turn around and say "Oh never mind". If they were kicking the can down the road it would be something like what did with Mac Pro and do a marginal update and then pitch as "just wait it is going to be very good" hint.
And cluster software pointed to in that letter as alternatives can invoke an command line application which accesses the GPUs.. There is nothing special needed at all.
Or maybe..its time to consider Mac for work and Console for games.
Just Joking ..sorry.
Realistically i have to see the price,if it will go over 2500€ as it seems i will have to move ...because a Mini its not enough for my Pro needs...and over that my wallet is gonna kill me^^..while i still understand the ones who need real GPUs for working and Mac mini is not enough... .
Strange Apple could left so market space for Hackintosh to fill this hole... .
By the way we have to wait to "open the real box" and see what brings within it..
Replaceable GPU?Good Starting Price Point?..no one knows it but our curiosity ,so
better hold our thoughts without killing us under tons of speculations..
Last..we had the Cube in the past..and it failed..now we have the Cylinder..lets hope Apple learnt from that beautiful fail..and avoid to make us wait for the Pyramid one.
There is no large substantive change in hackintosh stance here.
The relatively small lunatic fringe that wants to hack around "in the basement"/non-commercially with tweaked Macs and PC and hodgepodges of combining the two are largely free to continue what they have been doing. Apple doesn't particularly approve, but as long as not being a significant nuance they will take some losses as price of being in the game.
Besides to some extent it is free R&D. If they discover some combo that makes a big diff or find bugs or exploit weaknesses this is a why to find and track those to be fixed over time. It is also an outlet relieve value effect.
As much as the flashed-video cards were a funding source for hackintosh activity ..... this move actually reduces that. (flow of money into funded into taking more money out of Apple's market is not going to put you on Apple's christmas card list. )
Apple not using a mainstream card as the reference design and not adopting bleeding edge GPU cards will keep the hackintosh momentum to a minimum. There won't be drivers for the bleeding edge cards to even hack.
If there is a steady flow of used Macs in reasonably good condition into the used market that will siphon off some of the folks who go hackintosh on price point. ( Not the I have to have the newest shiny tech crowd but where price, not performance, is the major disconnect. )
It is obviously replaceable/serviceable. Even Apple's website animaton shows it coming out. An open market for replacements is a different dimension.
Given the circular aspect of the cylinder is driven by a fan.... Yes they have.
Largely relying on low density air convection was never going to work well. Jumping back into the pick shape before function zone. Not going to work.
There is no large substantive change in hackintosh stance here.
The relatively small lunatic fringe that wants to hack around "in the basement"/non-commercially with tweaked Macs and PC and hodgepodges of combining the two are largely free to continue what they have been doing. Apple doesn't particularly approve, but as long as not being a significant nuance they will take some losses as price of being in the game.
Besides to some extent it is free R&D. If they discover some combo that makes a big diff or find bugs or exploit weaknesses this is a why to find and track those to be fixed over time. It is also an outlet relieve value effect.
As much as the flashed-video cards were a funding source for hackintosh activity ..... this move actually reduces that. (flow of money into funded into taking more money out of Apple's market is not going to put you on Apple's christmas card list. )
Apple not using a mainstream card as the reference design and not adopting bleeding edge GPU cards will keep the hackintosh momentum to a minimum. There won't be drivers for the bleeding edge cards to even hack.
"This is a very good point..i also think that the main fear is on how Apple managed the Gpu in the past..but given how they built the Imac 27 with GTX680MX i really hope to see this machine with changeable (Gpu) parts within...well i'll be really happy to find that"
It is obviously replaceable/serviceable. Even Apple's website animaton shows it coming out. An open market for replacements is a different dimension.
Given the circular aspect of the cylinder is driven by a fan.... Yes they have.
Jumping back into the pick shape before function zone. Not going to work.
Gosh..i hoped to have a Pyramid one on my desk to activate my Ring Consoleby the way i agree...i clearly didn't notice the Gpu were replaceable..this is a good news for me...now...lets hope the price to be..."human"...
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...i clearly didn't notice the Gpu were replaceable..this is a good news for me...now...lets hope the price to be..."human"...
I think Apple is going to sell repair parts when it is broken. I don't think there is going to be alternatives being sold in open market.
Depending upon how stable the connector format is and Apple's interest they may/may not offer an "upgrade service" (bring in your Mac Pro and well swap it out). I wouldn't count on that happening. Apple built, completely custom cards will probably be better priced than AMD FIrePro standard cards but will not be matching mainstream cards in price.
There maybe an eventual market of boneyard spare parts from failed Mac Pros for those looking for swap out yourself trades, but that probably won't be all that later, nor available/viable for a couple of years.
..but they might sold those cards on the Apple Store..making you bringing your Mac Pro to a real shop to be retired later on..or maybe we will see Nvidia and Ati announcing new Mac Pro cards availability...we will see...
without any chance to upgrade my Gpu i won't buy it...so i will wait and i won't be with the first one buying it..