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Flip Flopping between macOS and Windows
- Thread starter LiE_
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This has reinforced my notion that Macs are not the platform to use if gaming is a major requirement. In the gaming forum, there's a thread In 3 years, 50% of all computers capable of playing AAA games will be Macs
Its 5 years old, and a number of members are realizing that situation has not changed at all. Macs have improved dramatically, but the gaming situation has not. Apple announced metalfx in 2022, and the Game Porting Toolkit in 2023. So far not much has come from those efforts. Even CDPR which announced CyberPunk for the mac seemed to put more effort in porting CyberPunk to the Switch 2. I also think AAA gaming is in turmoil, and upheaval, I'm unsure of that's good or bad for the Mac.
The Mini is not my first mac, obviously, and I still have my M1 MBP but that was largely unused, where as the Mini is by and large my main machine. With that said, I'm needing to relearn some of the shortcuts, peculiarities of macOS - much of my windows knowledge, shortcuts is so ingrained into muscle memory that its getting in the way
I'm compiling a list of what Macs do better and what PCs/Windows does better. Right now that running list favors Macs
I have two weeks to keep/return the Mini and I want to be totally sure this is the right tool for me. I will say outside of gaming, using the Mac has been wonderful, I really don't have any complaints. With each passing revision, of windows, the less I liked it, the more it aggravated me, with ads, and telemetry. MS pushing its copilot and recall and I just have a problem with that. MS bending over backwards trying to prevent PC owners from installing windows using a local account and not a Microsoft account - I don't really understand that move at all.
Sorry this post is a rambling one, lol
Just to further expound upon my two week window. I'm currently running some benchmarks against my laptops and desktop computers, and see how they measure up against the M4 Pro Mini. If I'm motivated, I'll provide a different thread along with what I found, and graphing how the M4 measure up against what I have for PCs.
Yeah I wish I didn't have this obsession with getting to as few devices as possible. I love a future where I have my iPhone, iPad Pro 12.9", and a laptop/desktop. Unfortunately due to Mac's inability to work as a true gaming platform, I have to use Windows 11. I disable all the telemetry I can and run Chris Titus's script--and also go with Pro not Home. That allows me to run regedit stuff as well.
Do I add my mini to that mix? I already own it, and it works well, but then I need a KVM, etc.,
So right now I am trying life without the Mini. I have found my baseline mini to be the equal of my 4060 most of the time--which is really impressive honestly. But it isn't like my Windows machine is slow.
So I guess I am rambling as well. LOL.
Also, I looked into adding a small monitor that I could use as a second monitor (I have a 27" 4k gaming monitor as my main) and man do the Chinese knockoffs SUCK. I just want like a 16" 1080p or higher VESA mountable monitor, and I have tried three different ones. All got returned and ALL SUCK.
Do I add my mini to that mix? I already own it, and it works well, but then I need a KVM, etc.,
So right now I am trying life without the Mini. I have found my baseline mini to be the equal of my 4060 most of the time--which is really impressive honestly. But it isn't like my Windows machine is slow.
So I guess I am rambling as well. LOL.
Also, I looked into adding a small monitor that I could use as a second monitor (I have a 27" 4k gaming monitor as my main) and man do the Chinese knockoffs SUCK. I just want like a 16" 1080p or higher VESA mountable monitor, and I have tried three different ones. All got returned and ALL SUCK.
This has reinforced my notion that Macs are not the platform to use if gaming is a major requirement. In the gaming forum, there's a thread In 3 years, 50% of all computers capable of playing AAA games will be Macs
Its 5 years old, and a number of members are realizing that situation has not changed at all. Macs have improved dramatically, but the gaming situation has not. Apple announced metalfx in 2022, and the Game Porting Toolkit in 2023. So far not much has come from those efforts. Even CDPR which announced CyberPunk for the mac seemed to put more effort in porting CyberPunk to the Switch 2. I also think AAA gaming is in turmoil, and upheaval, I'm unsure of that's good or bad for the Mac.
The Mini is not my first mac, obviously, and I still have my M1 MBP but that was largely unused, where as the Mini is by and large my main machine. With that said, I'm needing to relearn some of the shortcuts, peculiarities of macOS - much of my windows knowledge, shortcuts is so ingrained into muscle memory that its getting in the way
I'm compiling a list of what Macs do better and what PCs/Windows does better. Right now that running list favors Macs
I have two weeks to keep/return the Mini and I want to be totally sure this is the right tool for me. I will say outside of gaming, using the Mac has been wonderful, I really don't have any complaints. With each passing revision, of windows, the less I liked it, the more it aggravated me, with ads, and telemetry. MS pushing its copilot and recall and I just have a problem with that. MS bending over backwards trying to prevent PC owners from installing windows using a local account and not a Microsoft account - I don't really understand that move at all.
Sorry this post is a rambling one, lol
In terms of gaming I think most companies in the industry don't want to invest in a platform that may not be as profitable as the one they are already in. They know their market and most gamers wouldn't even try a Mac to use as a hard core gaming rig. No separate gaming card from Nvidia? No ability to build your own? Replace parts?
Why would a serious gamer who uses a desktop even consider a Mac? Sure the benefits that have been discussed im this thread but gamers don't prioritize those things. They prioritize freedom, hardware choice, reparability, ability to customize everything and if the rig is powerful enough you can swap out older GPU for a new one. Can't do that in a Mac.
Since the priorities of demographic groups are so different I don't see things making swift changes. If gaming becomes a major thing on Mac's it will be a slow evolution with a lot of customer feedback pushing things in a direction. Otherwise I don't see any major business benefits on either side making inroads for change. Rather it seems like two separate entrenched camps trying to figure out how to work with each other.
Until someone can figure out a major revenue stream and get gaming platforms that matter on a Mac with good recent games I think the division will stand.
If I were like some here instead of buying a Windows PC for gaming and a Mac for everything else I would buy a gaming console and just upgrade that every 5 years. Way cheaper than a gaming PC. Consoles tend to last longer for games. Then you have your gaming system and your Mac for everything else. Perfect combination that doesn't cost as much as maintaining a fast gaming desktop or laptop.
That sounds great in theory, but I have been a PC gamer my whole life.
I couldn't use those double stick controllers to save my life. I can WASD with the best of them though. And I see the gaming audience for the Mac as not as easy to pin down as you do. And it didn't used to matter. Even back in the PowerPC days--when Macs were slower than Intel, Blizzard made sure all its games worked on Mac. There is more gaming appetite now than there was then.
But it really doesn't matter--you are correct there. Game designers are definitely not going to pay to port games to Mac when well over 90% of their audience is already on Windows or at least SteamOS.
Thanks to @Plutonius for posting this thread: Crossover Answers. I was able to make some changes to Crossover/Steam bottle, and now Fallout 76 is playable. I'm generally averaging 60 FPS and more importantly no real lags, so things play smoothly.
I'm very happy with the results, and this means my PC can largely be shut down. The desktop runs on a 650 PSU, though I understand its not pulling 100% of that power 100% of the time, but it will be nice to shut it down. My electric bill is high enough with all of the air conditioning units running in my house
I'm very happy with the results, and this means my PC can largely be shut down. The desktop runs on a 650 PSU, though I understand its not pulling 100% of that power 100% of the time, but it will be nice to shut it down. My electric bill is high enough with all of the air conditioning units running in my house
Yeah, I made some changes to the game, and the config of crossover.
I have it fully setup on my desk, and my PC is now offline, there may come a need for the PC, but overall, the Mini is going to be my main machine
Whelp that was short. I channeled my inner @LiE_ and returned my Mini. Talk about an unexpected turn of events
Reasons for return:
There was one other option and that was to buy PC components to upgrade my desktop. Using the Pc builder, priced out what it would take to upgrade my PC. The price tag was over 1,000 dollars if I keep my GPU. The downside was that I'd still be using windows. I opted for a clean break and as I mentioned above, went with the studio.
Now with that said, the studio is a behemoth, especially compared to the Mini, but its sitting in the spot that my mini-tower occupied, so all things being equal, I have more space on my desk. The temps are largely in the 40s even when I the system, I'm barely hitting 70c. with Macs Fan control, I can easily keep the temps in the 40s regardless of the cpu utilization.
I've run some benchmarks within my tech arsenal, the Mini (now returned) and Studio have impressive numbers, though I'm a bit surprised at the GPU numbers on the studio. I think they should be higher then the 13k range. I'm guessing I may not have been a winner in the Silicon lottery. Still very solid numbers
The CPU numbers are solid and impressive, tbh, I thought I'd see some higher GPU numbers in cinebench, closer to 14k. Not sure if these are normal, or I'm just unlucky in the silicon lottery. I am not looking to exchange the studio, in the hopes of improving those numbers. I've tried googling and it seems mid to high 13k isn't unusual for 32 gpu cores. I'm lagely stuck in the mid 13k range - sometimes lower, sometimes higher. To put it another way, I think my numbers are off 3% then what others reported, well within the variance of what to expect. Perhaps as thermal compound will break in further and my numbers will inch up in a few days
Gaming:
Reasons for return:
- Crossover played the games that are important to me on the mini they "good enough" at low detail and lower resolutions. But the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me that a 1200 computer was markedly slower doing tasks I do daily.
- Heat, this is maybe a bit of a strawman argument, because the issue, is easily solved via Macs Fan Control. Still hitting 90c as soon as the cpu/gpu was engaged was bothersome.
- Peace of mind. If I'm not at peace about the performance and potential of using this for the next 4 or 5 years then I shouldn't settle.
- Return period. Instead of waiting and then regretting not getting the studio, I decided to take advantage of the return period - kind of a weird buy once, cry once mentality, event though I technically didn't buy once.
There was one other option and that was to buy PC components to upgrade my desktop. Using the Pc builder, priced out what it would take to upgrade my PC. The price tag was over 1,000 dollars if I keep my GPU. The downside was that I'd still be using windows. I opted for a clean break and as I mentioned above, went with the studio.
Now with that said, the studio is a behemoth, especially compared to the Mini, but its sitting in the spot that my mini-tower occupied, so all things being equal, I have more space on my desk. The temps are largely in the 40s even when I the system, I'm barely hitting 70c. with Macs Fan control, I can easily keep the temps in the 40s regardless of the cpu utilization.
I've run some benchmarks within my tech arsenal, the Mini (now returned) and Studio have impressive numbers, though I'm a bit surprised at the GPU numbers on the studio. I think they should be higher then the 13k range. I'm guessing I may not have been a winner in the Silicon lottery. Still very solid numbers
The CPU numbers are solid and impressive, tbh, I thought I'd see some higher GPU numbers in cinebench, closer to 14k. Not sure if these are normal, or I'm just unlucky in the silicon lottery. I am not looking to exchange the studio, in the hopes of improving those numbers. I've tried googling and it seems mid to high 13k isn't unusual for 32 gpu cores. I'm lagely stuck in the mid 13k range - sometimes lower, sometimes higher. To put it another way, I think my numbers are off 3% then what others reported, well within the variance of what to expect. Perhaps as thermal compound will break in further and my numbers will inch up in a few days
Gaming:
- Cyberpunk w/o ray tracing, I'm getting about 70 FPS, I'm quite impressed, given that its running via Crossover.
- Fallout 76, I'm getting 60 (I think the game is locked at 60fps regardless of the GPU) but the stuttering/lagging on the studio is more smoother.
- AtomFall 100+ FPS, at 1080P and medium quality
- Starfield: Doesn't load - keep getting GPU doesn't meet minimum requirements.
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Is CP at 1080P as well?Whelp that was short. I channeled my inner @LiE_ and returned my Mini. Talk about an unexpected turn of events
Reasons for return:
What now? Well, I went to my local Microcenter, exchanged the M4 Pro Mini and in its place got a M4 Max Studio. A 600 up charge.
- Crossover played the games that are important to me on the mini they "good enough" at low detail and lower resolutions. But the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me that a 1200 computer was markedly slower doing tasks I do daily.
- Heat, this is maybe a bit of a strawman argument, because the issue, is easily solved via Macs Fan Control. Still hitting 90c as soon as the cpu/gpu was engaged was bothersome.
- Peace of mind. If I'm not at peace about the performance and potential of using this for the next 4 or 5 years then I shouldn't settle.
- Return period. Instead of waiting and then regretting not getting the studio, I decided to take advantage of the return period - kind of a weird buy once, cry once mentality, event though I technically didn't buy once.
There was one other option and that was to buy PC components to upgrade my desktop. Using the Pc builder, priced out what it would take to upgrade my PC. The price tag was over 1,000 dollars if I keep my GPU. The downside was that I'd still be using windows. I opted for a clean break and as I mentioned above, went with the studio.
Now with that said, the studio is a behemoth, especially compared to the Mini, but its sitting in the spot that my mini-tower occupied, so all things being equal, I have more space on my desk. The temps are largely in the 40s even when I the system, I'm barely hitting 70c. with Macs Fan control, I can easily keep the temps in the 40s regardless of the cpu utilization.
I've run some benchmarks within my tech arsenal, the Mini (now returned) and Studio have impressive numbers, though I'm a bit surprised at the GPU numbers on the studio. I think they should be higher then the 13k range. I'm guessing I may not have been a winner in the Silicon lottery. Still very solid numbers
The CPU numbers are solid and impressive, tbh, I thought I'd see some higher GPU numbers in cinebench, closer to 14k. Not sure if these are normal, or I'm just unlucky in the silicon lottery. I am not looking to exchange the studio, in the hopes of improving those numbers. I've tried googling and it seems mid to high 13k isn't unusual for 32 gpu cores. I'm lagely stuck in the mid 13k range - sometimes lower, sometimes higher. To put it another way, I think my numbers are off 3% then what others reported, well within the variance of what to expect. Perhaps as thermal compound will break in further and my numbers will inch up in a few days
View attachment 2522064
Gaming:
- Cyberpunk w/o ray tracing, I'm getting about 70 FPS, I'm quite impressed, given that its running via Crossover.
- Fallout 76, I'm getting 60 (I think the game is locked at 60fps regardless of the GPU) but the stuttering/lagging on the studio is more smoother.
- AtomFall 100+ FPS, at 1080P and medium quality
- Starfield: Doesn't load - keep getting GPU doesn't meet minimum requirements.
yep, 1080p, medium settings, though I have selected low for the crowds.
I finally cleaned off my desk. The studio is definitely a chonky boy
I have a Uperfect 17 inch 4k monitor and I like it a lot. It fits in my bag and is light and USB-C power and optional HDMI input. I stick with Dell Ultrasharp for desktop monitors and have been using them for about 25 years.
Energy costs in MA have been a dumpster fire the past few years.
I give the Mass Saves program a moderate amount of the blame.
Whelp that was short. I channeled my inner @LiE_ and returned my Mini. Talk about an unexpected turn of events
Reasons for return:
What now? Well, I went to my local Microcenter, exchanged the M4 Pro Mini and in its place got a M4 Max Studio. A 600 up charge.
- Crossover played the games that are important to me on the mini they "good enough" at low detail and lower resolutions. But the more I thought about it, the more it bothered me that a 1200 computer was markedly slower doing tasks I do daily.
- Heat, this is maybe a bit of a strawman argument, because the issue, is easily solved via Macs Fan Control. Still hitting 90c as soon as the cpu/gpu was engaged was bothersome.
- Peace of mind. If I'm not at peace about the performance and potential of using this for the next 4 or 5 years then I shouldn't settle.
- Return period. Instead of waiting and then regretting not getting the studio, I decided to take advantage of the return period - kind of a weird buy once, cry once mentality, event though I technically didn't buy once.
There was one other option and that was to buy PC components to upgrade my desktop. Using the Pc builder, priced out what it would take to upgrade my PC. The price tag was over 1,000 dollars if I keep my GPU. The downside was that I'd still be using windows. I opted for a clean break and as I mentioned above, went with the studio.
Now with that said, the studio is a behemoth, especially compared to the Mini, but its sitting in the spot that my mini-tower occupied, so all things being equal, I have more space on my desk. The temps are largely in the 40s even when I the system, I'm barely hitting 70c. with Macs Fan control, I can easily keep the temps in the 40s regardless of the cpu utilization.
I've run some benchmarks within my tech arsenal, the Mini (now returned) and Studio have impressive numbers, though I'm a bit surprised at the GPU numbers on the studio. I think they should be higher then the 13k range. I'm guessing I may not have been a winner in the Silicon lottery. Still very solid numbers
The CPU numbers are solid and impressive, tbh, I thought I'd see some higher GPU numbers in cinebench, closer to 14k. Not sure if these are normal, or I'm just unlucky in the silicon lottery. I am not looking to exchange the studio, in the hopes of improving those numbers. I've tried googling and it seems mid to high 13k isn't unusual for 32 gpu cores. I'm lagely stuck in the mid 13k range - sometimes lower, sometimes higher. To put it another way, I think my numbers are off 3% then what others reported, well within the variance of what to expect. Perhaps as thermal compound will break in further and my numbers will inch up in a few days
View attachment 2522064
Gaming:
- Cyberpunk w/o ray tracing, I'm getting about 70 FPS, I'm quite impressed, given that its running via Crossover.
- Fallout 76, I'm getting 60 (I think the game is locked at 60fps regardless of the GPU) but the stuttering/lagging on the studio is more smoother.
- AtomFall 100+ FPS, at 1080P and medium quality
- Starfield: Doesn't load - keep getting GPU doesn't meet minimum requirements.
I bought the M1 mini in 2021 and it wasn't enough. I bought the M1 Max Studio in 2022 and it's nice. Still not great for running x86 Windows programs but okay. It looks like you were testing during a major heatwave which may have skewed your numbers a bit. I've never hit 90 degrees on my mini or Studio. I think that the highest I've reached for the Studio is 46 degrees and maybe 55 for the mini. The cooling on the Studio is great as are all the ports.
I love the spreadsheet analysis as that's what I do too.
More then moderate, the state was going to give them 5 billion for 3 years, at a time when we were seeing 700 dollar gas bills
Yeah, my wife shakes her head at my hyper-fixation and over analysis of things.
It makes sense to me, and gives me a peace of mind, knowing I did everything I could to make the right decision.
You can get a "tiny Mac" that actually "works"... sort of. It displays the time, the weather and various other tidbits. Plus, it comes with tiny perfect replicas of the original Macintosh keyboard and mouse!
Here is mine in the photo below:
Google "MicroFruit" to get to their website (https://microfruit.computer)
I got one for Christmas and I love it.
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I think there's a couple, I'll see if I can dig out the urls. The macintosh I printed was from printables, but the PC was from a 3d plan I found, and exported as a STL
Here's what I was thinking about:
pico-mac-nano : a diminutive macintosh facsimile -
pico-mac-nano is a miniature, functional, scale replica of the original 1984 Apple Macintosh. It is 62mm high (no, that's not a typo) and has USB keyboard and mouse support. Below is a journal of the journey but if you just want to see it in action, start building one yourself, buy any of the parts
blog.1bitrainbow.com
1-bit rainbow : pico-mac-nano
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I've been looking at a lot of Windows laptops from Micro to Mini to 16 inch models and there is a wide variety of interesting models and it's hard to figure out what I really want.
The minis would be great for portability and my portable monitor would take care of situations where I need a big screen. I used this setup with my M1 Pro MacBook Pro 16 yesterday at our Boston house and it worked fine on a table. But would a very small laptop, say 9-10 inches work when on a plane or train where there isn't room for the portable monitor? One of my trading buddies told me that he often works in his car and a portable monitor wouldn't work so he has a 17-inch laptop. I don't work in my car but I can see his point.
One thing that stood out in watching video laptop reviews and that was build quality. One thing that I ran into on premium Windows laptops videos was the build quality relative to the MacBook Pro. The MacBook Pro seems to be the standard to which Windows laptops are compared to. And I didn't find any reviews indicating build quality equal to or better. That's quite remarkable as any company could do better build quality - though I don't know what they would have to charge for it.
Another thing that really bugs me is having to carry a 200 watt charging brick around instead of using a standard USB-C charger. Yesterday, I brought a 30 watt charging block with me and my MacBook Pro 16 ran on that during the day and even powered my external monitor. Battery stayed at 100% the whole day. You can use a USB-C charger with the Windows laptops but they won't necessarily stay at 100% and it can increase the battery cycles used. My understanding is that it is not a good idea to use a charging block below the level of discharge.
Does build quality really matter? Probably not in terms of functionality and normal use. But it would bug me anyways.
I do not know the exact timeline for when Rosetta 2 support ends but it means that the only way for me to run my trading software would be in a Windows 11 ARM virtual machine. That would probably mean that I'd need to go up to more than 32 GB of RAM. I will probably do that anyways with my next MacBook Pro but was hoping to wait for M6 when they get rid of the notch. It would be an easier choice to go with a MacBook Pro if they kept Rosetta 2 around or if they added hardware support for better x86 translation.
The minis would be great for portability and my portable monitor would take care of situations where I need a big screen. I used this setup with my M1 Pro MacBook Pro 16 yesterday at our Boston house and it worked fine on a table. But would a very small laptop, say 9-10 inches work when on a plane or train where there isn't room for the portable monitor? One of my trading buddies told me that he often works in his car and a portable monitor wouldn't work so he has a 17-inch laptop. I don't work in my car but I can see his point.
One thing that stood out in watching video laptop reviews and that was build quality. One thing that I ran into on premium Windows laptops videos was the build quality relative to the MacBook Pro. The MacBook Pro seems to be the standard to which Windows laptops are compared to. And I didn't find any reviews indicating build quality equal to or better. That's quite remarkable as any company could do better build quality - though I don't know what they would have to charge for it.
Another thing that really bugs me is having to carry a 200 watt charging brick around instead of using a standard USB-C charger. Yesterday, I brought a 30 watt charging block with me and my MacBook Pro 16 ran on that during the day and even powered my external monitor. Battery stayed at 100% the whole day. You can use a USB-C charger with the Windows laptops but they won't necessarily stay at 100% and it can increase the battery cycles used. My understanding is that it is not a good idea to use a charging block below the level of discharge.
Does build quality really matter? Probably not in terms of functionality and normal use. But it would bug me anyways.
I do not know the exact timeline for when Rosetta 2 support ends but it means that the only way for me to run my trading software would be in a Windows 11 ARM virtual machine. That would probably mean that I'd need to go up to more than 32 GB of RAM. I will probably do that anyways with my next MacBook Pro but was hoping to wait for M6 when they get rid of the notch. It would be an easier choice to go with a MacBook Pro if they kept Rosetta 2 around or if they added hardware support for better x86 translation.
Here's where gaming laptops have a major downside. Those GPUs need lots of power, and they also generate a lot of heat, so fan noise is a major thing.
I fired up my Razer (I7 9750H/RTX 2070) to run benchmarks to compare that laptop with the studio - after hours of updates, I realized at how used to the quietness I got with my desktops (even my pc desktop) and how ungainly large the brick was. This is running a relatively low powered CPU (compared to later generations) and GPU yet those fans were annoying. I'm not sure how I was so used to them back in the day. I never got used to lugging the power brick with me, but it was something I did often.
AMD has some really nice offerings, and while the Thinkpad T14s isn't a gaming laptop, I was able to run some of my games fairly decently. What I likked about that was the smaller brick, light design, and thinkpad quality. I'm a big fan of thinkpads, and I'll grab the thinkpad before I think about my M1 MBP