Flip Flopping between macOS and Windows

[maflynn]

2 minis at Microcenter would be $450 each or a total of $900.

Its not the cost, I don't see the value in two macs, Its not like I can use photoshop on both macs at the same time for double the computational speed, or play a game that somehow leverages both macs at the same time. My workflow, apps, and preferences are a single computer.

I am heading to Microcenter when my schedule permits. I actually tried to go to Microcenter today, but the traffic in East Boston is at a stand still, not sure why. I don't think its related to a parade that is scheduled but it might be.

I may try either later this afternoon or tomorrow.

 

[maflynn]

My humble opinion you don’t need ssd on mac mini. For stationary device you can plug in big external ssd and forget about it.

I agree, its more that I'm looking to have the M4 pro for the extra P cores and gpu cores, the added storage is icing on the cake

 

[M4th]

I don't see myself some how combining the two Mac Minis and using them in a combined fashion, a single computer for 1200 makes more sense then two minis for 1400. I don't see any upsides to how I use my computers.


The studio really isn't on the radar for me, largely because at some point I need to draw the line.

I went from spending 450 for the base mini to 900 for 24GB/512GB, to 1200 for M4 Pro 24gb/512gb to 1800 for a Mac studio. What I get with the studio mostly, is the increase in GPU cores - not sure if that's worth 600 dollars. I'm not terribly worried about fan noise, not when I have a PC with its fans doing their thing on my desk. I'm pretty sure for most of my work, I'll not hear the mini's fan.

Really the only time I've heard the fan is when I did this. For context and I guess full disclosure my mini is directly behind a studio display, the stand of which hides it... both visually and auditorily (if there is such a thing?).

To stay on-topic I do still have my old (2013) Dell Inspiron desktop which MS deems cannot run Win11. I know it possibly could with workarounds, but it's just as well not to bother hearing the complaints of what they're foisting on users.

Unbloating may help but the underlying telemetry still lurks. I do fire it up regularly to maintain security updates and may cough up for another year after October. It has the full Adobe CS4 on it which is ancient at this point (and slow as molasses compared to GIMP and Inkscape on the mini) but it's familiar and reminds me of my younger days. So, yeah.

 

[maflynn]

To stay on-topic I do still have my old (2013) Dell Inspiron desktop which MS deems cannot run Win11.

My work laptop is a Dell and it’s getting crushed by windows 11. I can double click to start a program and I can wait several seconds before seeing the splash screen. I’m sure it’s the increased group policies adding to the bloat

Unbloating may help but the underlying telemetry still lurks

I was using a debloater and I went to make some change - I forgot what exactly but my system got so messed up I could only reinstall windows. I’m a bit more gun shy with the debloat stuff now

 

[LiE_]

I’m still fully Apple, base M4 mini doing a great job for my general purpose computing. My eyes do keep wandering to a gaming PC, but I have to keep reminding myself I don’t really play games. The main draw is the social aspect, playing games with friends who I don’t see much.

 

[diamond.g]

I game on a PC and do everything else on my MacBook Pro. I actually like the process of building a computer. I don't have too much of an issue flip flopping between operating systems.

 

[pshufd]

I game on a PC and do everything else on my MacBook Pro. I actually like the process of building a computer. I don't have too much of an issue flip flopping between operating systems.

I've built a couple of computers too but the prices of stuff today and the gouging are a big turnoff. I'm not happy with the problems that Intel had with the 13th and 14th generations either.

 

[1BadManVan]

I dont see myself migrating from a windows desktop anytime soon as i do enjoy gaming often on it. But i dont see myself using a windows laptop anytime soon as my macbook air has been flawless for my use cases.

 

[maflynn]

the gouging are a big turnoff

Same, I had checked out MicroCenter a few weeks back and was surprised at what is being sold above MSRP. I also used their pc builder and if I bought a complete kit to build I'm north of 2,000 dollars. I know I could get that price down to the cost of what the M4 Pro Mini, but that would require cutting corners and re-using some parts that I already have, i.e., not buy a new GPU saves me a boat load of money.

i do enjoy gaming often on it. But i dont see myself using a windows laptop anytime

I'm thje opposite, I'll be using my thinkpad for windows stuff, and the mini will be my desktop, and its largely due to the fact that Apple is giving me a better user experience with macOS for my non-gaming uses. I think wth Crossover the Mini will handle the gaming needs that I have. I'm not a huge gamer, there's a handful of games that I play regularly, and the Mac is reportedly fine at running those as well.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Same, I had checked out MicroCenter a few weeks back and was surprised at what is being sold above MSRP. I also used their pc builder and if I bought a complete kit to build I'm north of 2,000 dollars. I know I could get that price down to the cost of what the M4 Pro Mini, but that would require cutting corners and re-using some parts that I already have, i.e., not buy a new GPU saves me a boat load of money.


I'm thje opposite, I'll be using my thinkpad for windows stuff, and the mini will be my desktop, and its largely due to the fact that Apple is giving me a better user experience with macOS for my non-gaming uses. I think wth Crossover the Mini will handle the gaming needs that I have. I'm not a huge gamer, there's a handful of games that I play regularly, and the Mac is reportedly fine at running those as well.

I don’t know. My gaming needs, I thought, would be met with my M4 Mac Mini (we are talking basic stuff here—like Teamfight Tactics) and it wasn’t just whether it can run it on a Mac, it was little things. The mouse acts weird, switching from full screen to another app and back brought the thing to its knees. Stuff like that.

I am trying to decide if it is worth keeping a decent gaming laptop (we are talking RTX 4060) and an M4 Mac Mini 16/512 both around. The problem for me is I do game. So I have to drag the windows laptop along either way. What I have been testing is whether I really need the Mini.

I have moved to software that really isn’t with either camp—for instance I rolled my own Unraid server and stuck Nextcloud on there. That means I don’t have to use Microsoft or Apple for cloud based storage. Also added Jellyfin. Instead of Apple Notes or Bear or something, I switched to Obsidian. Instead of Ulysses, I use Scrivener (which also isn’t a subscription).

Anyway, I do already own the Mini anyway, so it isn’t like I have to ditch Mac.

And it also isn’t like Microsoft is on a great path right now. I managed to “downgrade” Office to the “older” version that worked great last year without any copilot, but will they keep letting me do that? Pages, Numbers, and Keynote have continued to improve and I don’t have to worry about any of that telemetry crap.

Probably, sadly, the best way to go right now is just to use my 4060 for gaming, my mini for everything else, and wait to make a decision when I actually have to replace something. But there is something so nice about just having an iPhone, iPad Pro 12.9”, and one PC (gaming laptop).

Also, it should be noted that I bought the baseline M4 Mini. I bet if you bought the model you described, gaming would be much better on your Mac than it was on mine.

 

[maflynn]

Probably, sadly, the best way to go right now is just to use my 4060 for gaming, my mini for everything else,

That was more or less what I was thinking, though I'm going to see if the mac can handle what I game on. Like you, my gaming needs are basic, my main game is Fallout 76 and I see that it runs fairly well on Crosstalk.

 

[maflynn]

whelp, I pulled the trigger, and I now own a M4 Pro mini. Its a great addition, really happy with it for most tasks. I thought it was going to be able to handle Fallout 76 (my main game I play daily), but with crossover and parallels its not really playable. I may be able to tweak the system to get it to run decently, but so far things are not looking positive for that game. I still have my PC, so I'll be able to play demanding games.

If I ever clean my desk off, I'll post a picture

 

[pshufd]

whelp, I pulled the trigger, and I now own a M4 Pro mini. Its a great addition, really happy with it for most tasks. I thought it was going to be able to handle Fallout 76 (my main game I play daily), but with crossover and parallels its not really playable. I may be able to tweak the system to get it to run decently, but so far things are not looking positive for that game. I still have my PC, so I'll be able to play demanding games.

If I ever clean my desk off, I'll post a picture

The overhead of WINE + Rosetta 2 is pretty heavy. It's 66% for one of my trading programs and I can only run it well on x86 Windows. WINE isn't 100% so I'd get crashes with it every once in a while on macOS.

We're fine with messy desks.

 

[maflynn]

The overhead of WINE + Rosetta 2 is pretty heavy.

I didn't know that. I had done some research and saw some YTs playing FO76 a M4, it looked pretty decent on that video, so I had thought I was going to be ok as well

WINE isn't 100% so I'd get crashes with it every once in a while on macOS.

I thought they made a lot of inroads, especially since proton relies on wine (I think, I'm not 100% sure) but yeah, its not perfect.

 

[pshufd]

I didn't know that. I had done some research and saw some YTs playing FO76 a M4, it looked pretty decent on that video, so I had thought I was going to be ok as well

I thought they made a lot of inroads, especially since proton relies on wine (I think, I'm not 100% sure) but yeah, its not perfect.

Here's a chart I made for the WINE/Rosetta 2 performance with various CPUs. The i7-10700 is the base case and the Delta numbers are relative to it. The M4 chips aren't bad but that's relative to a five-year-old Intel CPU. An 11900K would be ideal as I could reuse my motherboard but those are over $400 these days. My best option for a build would probably be the 9700X bundle.

 

[maflynn]

We're fine with messy desks.

LOL,
Its more along the lines of re-organizing my desk. Prior to the Mini, I had my work laptop, and my PC on my desk, with a two port KVM. I'm not sure how I want to re-do things, but the KVM seems to be failing which complicates matters. At the moment, I have the mini using a seperate keyboard mouse, and is hooked directly into my monitor via a USB-C cable. I'm not sure I want to have two keyboards/mice on my desk for three computers.

My best option for a build would probably be the 9700X bundle.

Is the 429 for the 9700x the complete expense? I'd certainly go after the 9700x if that was the case.

 

[Plutonius]

I think wth Crossover the Mini will handle the gaming needs that I have. I'm not a huge gamer, there's a handful of games that I play regularly, and the Mac is reportedly fine at running those as well.

I have an m2 studio max and all my game needs are met between native and Crossover. I have no need to get a separate Windows gaming PC.

The main issue with gaming on a Mac is trying to play multiplayer with anti cheat.

 

[pshufd]

LOL,
Its more along the lines of re-organizing my desk. Prior to the Mini, I had my work laptop, and my PC on my desk, with a two port KVM. I'm not sure how I want to re-do things, but the KVM seems to be failing which complicates matters. At the moment, I have the mini using a seperate keyboard mouse, and is hooked directly into my monitor via a USB-C cable. I'm not sure I want to have two keyboards/mice on my desk for three computers.


Is the 429 for the 9700x the complete expense? I'd certainly go after the 9700x if that was the case.

It's CPU, motherboard, 32 GB of RAM. I have everything else in my i7-10700 build.

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[maflynn]

I have an m2 studio max and all my game needs are met between native and Crossover. I have no need to get a separate Windows gaming PC.

The main issue with gaming on a Mac is trying to play multiplayer with anti cheat.

Unfortunately my lower core count M4 Pro isn't able to handle much of my gaming needs. I was a little disappointed, but I'm not done investigating what my options

This video shows the game is playable on a M4 Mini, so I want to delve a bit deeper into the game settings. What the video doesn't show is high frenetic situations, like events mobs where frame rates drop on many PCs and consoles

 

[JemTheWire]

I have wanted to buy a Mac for quite some time but two things had put me off doing so.

Firstly the cost. Macs look cool and there is no denying their build quality but it comes at a price and one that I could not justify paying as I had a quite powerful PC that suited my needs.

Secondly, at the time I had applications that did not have Mac variants.

You could say that I am addicted to YouTube. I use it for my 'technology fix' and I was watching lots and lots of M4 Mac Mini videos. Needless to say they 'got under my skin'.
As it had been quite some years since I had previously thought about it, I did some research regarding the applications that I use. To my surprise my Windows apps all had Mac equivalents, or at least an application that would do the same as a Windows version. The price of the base Mac mini M4 was unbelievable and was really 'pushed' in the YT videos I watched. So I gave in.

I thought that the base model with 256GB SSD was just a bit too small so I went with the M4 16/512. It was slightly discounted on Amazon. Of course I couldn't just stop there. I got an Apple TouchID keyboard with the numeric keypad, Logitech M3 Mac mouse, new BenQ 27" monitor, OWC 1M2 SSD enclosure and a Samsung 990 Pro SSD and a pair of Creative T60 Bluetooth speakers to replace my non-Bluetooth ones.

It was a breeze to set up as I'm well into the Apple Eco system anyway. MacOS does take a while to get used to but on the whole I have found it great to use.

I did, however, regret getting the non-M4 Pro version. In the end I did buy the Mac Mini M4 Pro 24/512 and sold the non pro M4. I took a financial hit but it was my fault. I did have an issue with the non-pro M4. When I reset and erased it with the view to sell, it had a hissy-fit and corrupted its firmware. I took it to an Apple Store and they sorted it out for me so that I was confident of selling a working unit and my conscience was clear.

As for my Windows PC, apart from transferring some data over, it has not been turned on in weeks.

I cannot believe how energy efficient the Mac Mini M4 is. My PC draws 500-600 watts , the Mac mini positively sips electricity and is quiet in comparison.

I do not regret swapping to Mac at all. Just make sure you pick the right model at the beginning and don't fall for the hype!

 

[Plutonius]

Unfortunately my lower core count M4 Pro isn't able to handle much of my gaming needs. I was a little disappointed, but I'm not done investigating what my options

This video shows the game is playable on a M4 Mini, so I want to delve a bit deeper into the game settings. What the video doesn't show is high frenetic situations, like events mobs where frame rates drop on many PCs and consoles

Yep, I wasn't considering that it was a mini. Most older games will not take advantage of the multiple cores for processing but the number of GPU cores matter. Memory is shared between the CPU and GPU so the amount memory will also have an effect on performance.

I never got past the beginning in Fallout 76 on my Mac in Crossover because my FOV (field of view) for some reason is 90 degrees. It's tough playing when you can't turn around. I'm sure there is a solution but I'm too lazy to figure it out .

 

[Plutonius]

I cannot believe how energy efficient the Mac Mini M4 is. My PC draws 500-600 watts , the Mac mini positively sips electricity and is quiet in comparison.

I came from a Mac Pro (2012) that had a 980W power supply and it acted like a space heater.

I noticed a difference in the electricity bill when I got my new Mac .

 

[maflynn]

I never got past the beginning in Fallout 76 on my Mac in Crossover because my FOV

I'm gonna try 1080p and low w/o sound. I think the video I linked too also had a suggestion. Even with that said, for high activity events, I think the stuttering/lagginess will be too much. I'm largely resigning myself to not playing 76 on my Mac.

There's a few other games I'm going to try and see how the performance is, and I'll report back. I'm only on the trial of Crossover so I need to vet out whether its worth the price.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Unfortunately my lower core count M4 Pro isn't able to handle much of my gaming needs. I was a little disappointed, but I'm not done investigating what my options

This video shows the game is playable on a M4 Mini, so I want to delve a bit deeper into the game settings. What the video doesn't show is high frenetic situations, like events mobs where frame rates drop on many PCs and consoles

Same issues I ran into, honestly. Gaming is just always so disappointing on Macs. You have to do so much work and perform so many workarounds that it just seems easier to stick with windows (or possibly SteamOS?) instead.

I am a little surprised that your higher end model didn’t perform better on a game that old.

Honestly I miss the hackintosh days. I could get the PC I wanted and then put Mac on it to get both in one package.

Then again, I can get a decent gaming laptop/PC and base level M4 Mini for under $2k together….

 

[Plutonius]

I'm gonna try 1080p and low w/o sound. I think the video I linked too also had a suggestion. Even with that said, for high activity events, I think the stuttering/lagginess will be too much. I'm largely resigning myself to not playing 76 on my Mac.

There's a few other games I'm going to try and see how the performance is, and I'll report back. I'm only on the trial of Crossover so I need to vet out whether its worth the price.

I find that really old games sometimes have performance issues under Crossover and that many of the newest games will not run until Crossover is updated. Crossover will run 32 bit games but generally not as well (note - I'm still happy that I can run my 32 bit Steam games since MacOS no longer supports them).

I recently picked up Red Dead Redemption 2 in a Steam sale since it's now supported in Crossover. I launched it to verify that it runs but I have no idea of its performance.

The sad thing is the few games that run better under Crossover than native MacOS.