The frame buffer pixel width upper limit of the M4 Pro and Max is already found to have not increased, it is still 7680 px. The above poster's scenario of a 7680 x 2160 (8k2k) display still only supporting 3840 x 1080 HiDPI reflects this. BetterDisplay's dev has been posting in another display related thread here that confirms this.
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For LG OLED users: Mac mini M4 does not support HiDPI 4k over HDMI 2.1
- Thread starter dinosauradventure
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Hmm.
So, it would be better (trouble free) to have 2 x Dell 40" 5120 x 2160 - U4025QW's /at HiDPI 3840 x 1620's on an M4 Mini, than a single G95NC?
Of course, I'm being facetious. The G95NC just went on sale in Australia at AUD $800 off, which makes it cheaper than the U4025QW!
Even then, after all the hassle I've gone through with an alternative 5120 x 2160 panel ('Native' OOB HiDPI of 3360 x 1418 on M4 Mini Pro) - I would still take the U4025QW, for that sweet 3840 x 1620 - NO HASSLE, OUT-OF-THE-BOX, HiDPI
3360 x 1418 = 35% reduction from 5120, what I have simplified as "35% zoom".
3840 x 1620 = 25% zoom, the sweet spot. Which is available OOB on the U4025QW.
So... is it worth $2400 to get an extra 10% OOB smooth/HiDPI zoom-in?
I'm in the other 5k2k thread too, but you provided the most comprehensive overview of the G95NC's, er... idiosyncrasies in this thread. Cheers.
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Weirdly, yes. I don't know how you'd get those two screens comfortably on the desk though, it would suck to have a bezel right in the center.
It's not really the monitor's idiosyncracies, rather more like the idiocy of MacOS and Mac hardware limitations.
I don't understand the benefit of rendering at 8k to downscale to 4k on a monitor that is only 4k. Wouldn't you be best off with native 4k?
This is what I don't get either, but I think it has to do with text/font in MacOS beeing pixelated on large 4K monitors. Render it in 8K and then downsizing it to 4K they will get some crude antialiasing and the text will look smoother.
I'm not sure about this but that's the only plausible theory I can come up with. If anyone could correct or verify, I'd be glad.
I can't even get 120hz at 4k, and at 4k the text looks wonky, and the color is way off. I've tried every high-end cable imaginable. I've tried both of these monitors:
ASUS ROG Strix 27” 4K HDR400 USB-C Gaming Monitor (XG27UCS)–UHD (3840 x 2160) 160HZ
Acer XV272K V3bmiiprx Nitro 27" 4K UHD 160hz
I've just given up.
It's ridiculous, my nearly 4-year-old gaming laptop can do this (4k 120hz at least). 4 years into the M series and it still has issues. Monitors should be plugin and play.
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I have a 48" C1, and I'm able to run 4k 120Hz HiDPI mode at 4:4:4. I'm confused now, this is how I'm running on my PC with a 3080ti without issues. I did need BetterDisplay to set it at 4:4:4/RGB, it was defaulting to 4:2:0 out of the box.
Is it fixed now? Or are you trying to run 8k in HiDPI mode? I'm not sure I understand this: "EDIT: 4k @120HZ is working with M4/M4 Pro. This thread is about running at a scaled/downsampled "looks like" 3840x2160 resolution, which is not currently supported on M4.", and maybe I'm wrong about what this thread is for. Thank you.
Is it fixed now? Or are you trying to run 8k in HiDPI mode? I'm not sure I understand this: "EDIT: 4k @120HZ is working with M4/M4 Pro. This thread is about running at a scaled/downsampled "looks like" 3840x2160 resolution, which is not currently supported on M4.", and maybe I'm wrong about what this thread is for. Thank you.
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Sorry, I would have responded to you first, I missed where you said the text looks wonky; I had the same problem - I think it was because the Mini was defaulting to 4k with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, so it's using compression which is what causes those artifacts and weird text. I used BetterDisplay to set it to 4:4:4, and it's perfect now. That software is really awesome for working with my LG oled.
TLDR: Download BetterDisplay
Just out of curiosity, are you using the same HDMI port to connect each Mac to the LG? What model LG TV are you using. A few years ago a colleague of mine has a similar issue trying to connect a new LG TV that he purchased and was having issues with display and picture quality. Turns out he had to use the appropriate HDMI cable and make certain it was plugged into the correct HDMI port. apparently he had it plugged in to an HDMI port that was not the “correct” one. YMMV. Also try fooling around with changing the input modes for that HDMI connection.
Anyway, long story short once he had the right HDMI cable plugged into the correct HDMI port on the TV, it worked like magic (as he described it).
Me? I’m using the ASD and just looking for a top notch gaming monitor that will work satisfactorily out of the box and hopefully avoid any issues. Right now, I’m just monitoring the thread since it’s discussing the M4 Mini.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried attaching a new iPad Pro to any of these TVs/Monitors to see how things appear?
Reading through Apple's Specs for the current iPad Pro Models:
2024 iPad Pro 13”
- Ultra Retina XDR display
- Tandem OLED3
- 2752-by-2064-pixel resolution
- 264 ppi
- ProMotion tech with adaptive refresh rates from 10Hz to 120Hz
- Wide color (P3)
- True Tone
- SDR brightness: 1000 nits max
- XDR brightness: 1000 nits max full screen, 1600 nits peak (HDR content only)
- Supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors
- Supports one external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz
- Thunderbolt 3 DV output
- Native DisplayPort output over USB-C
- VGA, HDMI, DVI, and Thunderbolt 2 output supported using adapters
Video mirroring
- Up to 4K AirPlay for mirroring, photos, and video out to Apple TV (2nd generation or later) or AirPlay‑enabled smart TV
- Video mirroring and video out support through USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter and USB-C VGA Multiport Adapter
Sounds like an OS/Software anomaly. Doubt it's the Mac hardware per se.
Reading through Apple's Specs for the current iPad Pro Models:
2024 iPad Pro 13”
- Ultra Retina XDR display
- Tandem OLED3
- 2752-by-2064-pixel resolution
- 264 ppi
- ProMotion tech with adaptive refresh rates from 10Hz to 120Hz
- Wide color (P3)
- True Tone
- SDR brightness: 1000 nits max
- XDR brightness: 1000 nits max full screen, 1600 nits peak (HDR content only)
- Supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors
- Supports one external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz
- Thunderbolt 3 DV output
- Native DisplayPort output over USB-C
- VGA, HDMI, DVI, and Thunderbolt 2 output supported using adapters
Video mirroring
- Up to 4K AirPlay for mirroring, photos, and video out to Apple TV (2nd generation or later) or AirPlay‑enabled smart TV
- Video mirroring and video out support through USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter and USB-C VGA Multiport Adapter
Sounds like an OS/Software anomaly. Doubt it's the Mac hardware per se.
I sincerely appreciate your posts here. I have been relying on Cable Master TB3/4 - HDMI 2.1 adapter to run mac mini M2 at 4k 120hz (low res NOT hidpi) on my lg oled 42. Using dummy display function of better display, the best hidpi I can get is 3360*1890 (See screenshots below). I have high expectation on mac mini m4 to natively pursue 3840*2160 @ hidpi or at least 3360*1890 @ hidpi because it is equipped with a hdmi 2.1 port. It is unfortunately that this is not reality we have. Again, thanks for your posts here, which greatly help a user like me save money and time. Let's see if sequoia 15.2 make any improvement on this aspect.
System: Sonoma 14.1.2
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I thought this is what I'm doing with the M4 mini
I don't know if I'm confused or missing something, but I'm running 4k 120hz hidpi on my m4 mini without problems. Well, one, with 4:2:0 being the default but that's fixed with BetterDisplay. I'm connecting to an LG 48" C1 using the built-in HDMI port, what did you mean when you wrote; "I have high expectation on mac mini m4 to natively pursue 3840*2160 @ hidpi or at least 3360*1890 @ hidpi because it is equipped with a hdmi 2.1 port. It is unfortunately that this is not reality we have. "
I don't know if I'm confused or missing something, but I'm running 4k 120hz hidpi on my m4 mini without problems. Well, one, with 4:2:0 being the default but that's fixed with BetterDisplay. I'm connecting to an LG 48" C1 using the built-in HDMI port, what did you mean when you wrote; "I have high expectation on mac mini m4 to natively pursue 3840*2160 @ hidpi or at least 3360*1890 @ hidpi because it is equipped with a hdmi 2.1 port. It is unfortunately that this is not reality we have. "
Hello, there are two ways help us to see if you really run 4k 120hz @ hidpi. In BetterDisplay, if you can keep hidpi on (blue), 3840*2160 in display mode, refresh rate at 120hz simultaneously, you are now really running at 4k 120hz. In my case, I can run 3840*2160 at 120hz natively. However, once I choose hidpi, it will be automatically scaled down to 3072*1728. It means that the highest hidpi resolution is I can have is 3072*1728 (scaled from 6144 x 3456).
The other way is to check in system information (able to search through spotlight), as I shown in the screenshot of my last post. You are running 4k 120hz @hidpi if the following are fulfilled for LG TV SSCR2: 1. resolution: 7680*4320. 2. UI Looks like: 3840*2160 @ 120hz. This is what I mean about my expectation for Mac mini M4.
Maybe I've been confused about HiDPI, but as I understood it, 4k resolution would have a HiDPI display of 1080. Your screen only has 3840x2160 pixels to begin with, why would it upsample to 8k to downsample back to the native resolution? The benefit of HiDPI is the smoothing effect of those extra 4 pixels for every displayed pixel, right?
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I noticed this hardware performance downgrade seems to also affect Macs prior to the M4. On a MacBook Pro M3 Max, I noticed I lost the ability to set a custom HiDPI resolution with SwitchResX after doing a fresh install of Sequoia 15.2. Prior to the fresh install, my LG display was running at 120hz in HiDPI at a custom resolution of 3803x2142, which is nearly 4K. Interestingly, it was running 15.2 at the time, but was upgraded from 15.1 with the Software Update. This method retained the custom HiDPI settings. However, after fully erasing the Mac and doing a fresh install, the M3 Max is now limited to 3360x1890 HiDPI @ 100hz, similar to the M4/Pro/Max also. I'm no longer able to obtain any higher resolution and refresh rates as before. I wonder if Apple throttled the output to reduce the bandwidth going to the HDMI port.
I'm also noticing a screen mirroring icon that's active in the menu bar for the LG display. Strange happenings after doing a brand new install with 15.2.
I'm also noticing a screen mirroring icon that's active in the menu bar for the LG display. Strange happenings after doing a brand new install with 15.2.
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I don't get what you guys are trying to do. If you have a 4k tv with 3840x2160 pixels, and run it at hidpi mode ( which is high dots per inch mode ), you get a UI that looks like 1920x1080 because you're now using 4 pixels to display each pixel the UI renders. Ergo; HiDPI. If you want to see 3840x2160 in hiDPI, you need an 8k TV. Is that what you're all doing, trying to get it to display a 4K ui on an 8K tv?
You have to see the difference to know what 3840x2160 HiDPI looks like. It's like font smoothing has been applied internally. Fonts and screen elements look a lot more jagged without the HiDPI scaling. With HiDPI, everything looks a lot more polished around the edges and less pixelated
It depends on the screen size, assuming people use the display/tv before a computer desk. You arguments are mostly held when the screen size is below 34 inch (probably 32 depending on individuals). There is little need to upsample to 8k and downsample back to 4k because everything will look so small when UI look like 4k. In this case, even just 3072*1728 @ HIDPI are quite enough.
However, users in this thread use LG OLED TV whose size range from 42 to 48 inch. Many users want to use UI look like 4k @ HIDPI or at least 3360*1890 @ HIDPI to take advantage of the screen size for showing more content while the font still stays sharp and nice. Without HIDPI, everything will look blurry. On the other hand, 3072*1728@HIDPI make the UI and font too large for most users to use and waste too much space. It is mostly because of the screen size that users in this thread pursue higher resolution @ HIDPI.
I'm using an LG OLED C1 48". At 4k hidpi 120hz. But not how you're talking about, in fact I've never heard of anything like that, could you link me to documentation from Apple describing these other display modes? I'd like to learn more.
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I'd rather not mess around with my TV to test this, but wouldn't this solution from BetterDisplay for adding custom HiDPI resolutions work? Excuse me for my ignorance here, I'm seriously trying to learn; https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay/discussions/678#discussioncomment-2935561
I posted in a similar thread here on MR. I’ll link to it because there seems to be quite a bit of overlap with this one. Anyway, what’s been mentioned here is that macOS doesn’t do sub-pixel rendering. I used to, it doesn’t any longer by default, but seems that it can be turned back on.
Apparently, Apple disabled sub-pixel rendering since 2018 (Mojave) which likely exacerbates the scaling and image quality with non-retina displays. Someone elsewhere posted a way to reactivate it.
Visit here and read through the page:
Post in thread '5K2K at 120Hz with Mac Mini M4'
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/5k2k-at-120hz-with-mac-mini-m4.2441289/post-33614313
There’s a lot to consider from screen size and resolution. The physical size of the screen elements, the dot pitch, pixel density etc.
A 40+ inch LG TV (which is also lower-than-retina resolution on top of that) will never appear like an iMac 5K screen or even the iMacs 4K screen. Perhaps a big part of Better Display is re-enabling subpixel rendering on MacOS.
Apparently, Apple disabled sub-pixel rendering since 2018 (Mojave) which likely exacerbates the scaling and image quality with non-retina displays. Someone elsewhere posted a way to reactivate it.
Visit here and read through the page:
Post in thread '5K2K at 120Hz with Mac Mini M4'
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/5k2k-at-120hz-with-mac-mini-m4.2441289/post-33614313
There’s a lot to consider from screen size and resolution. The physical size of the screen elements, the dot pitch, pixel density etc.
A 40+ inch LG TV (which is also lower-than-retina resolution on top of that) will never appear like an iMac 5K screen or even the iMacs 4K screen. Perhaps a big part of Better Display is re-enabling subpixel rendering on MacOS.
Before the highDPI times, a normal monitor dpi(ppi) was about 92-100ppi. It was a de-facto standard. It means for example a 24"-ish 1920x1080 fullHD monitor was 93 ppi, and the UI elements and normal text sizes (8-10-12px) was absolutely comfortable for most of the people. Of course 92ppi is "pixelated" (especially with young eagle eyes), that's why every normal OS uses sub pixel rendering techniques (ClearType, freetype, etc).
24" 1920x1080 is ~92 ppi (UI and normal text sizes are comfortable)
32" 2560x1440 is still ~92 ppi (UI and normal text sizes are comfortable)
43" 3840x2160 4K is ~102 ppi (UI and normal text are a little bit smaller, but still okay)
48" 3840x2160 4K is ~92 ppi again (using in native 4K the UI is the same as on a 24" FullHD screen)
"how niche it is what he wants to do" - Why? If you want more space to work with multiple windows opened, it is totally pointless to get a bigger display but scale UP everything to the same level as you would still have a smaller display. Yes, the rendering is nicer, but you still can't place 2 windows comfortably side by side. Im in the same boat as OP. I need more space to work. Now I have 2x24"(1920x1080), what are the options if I want more space? I would go for 43-48" 4K, and I want use it at native 4K resolution, that way I will have 4xfullHD equal space (it's like 4x24" fullHD in 2 rows). But if Mac can't render it nicely (it should render 7680x4320 to get the so called "scaled" 3840x2160) than it's a no go.
That isn't how HiDPI works. A 4k monitor can not display anything sharper than 3840x2160; so rendering a higher resolution and scaling it down is pointless; the only that *might* do is fake sub pixel anti-aliasing, which why not just bring that feature back instead.
What you really want is a 8k display that renders the UI at 3840x2160 which will be sharper because now it has 2x2 pixels for every 1 pixel to render the same element rather than 1 pixel.
Native resolution for my MacBook Pro is 3456x2234; but then the UI is so damn tiny it is impossible to use. The default resolution is 1728x1117; but it actually renders at 3456x2234; using 2x2 pixels for every 1 pixel of the 1728x1117 GUI display.
I use the "more space" setting which is 2056 x 1329; which would be using less than 2x2 pixels for every 1 pixel of the UI, so kind of weird; but it looks ok.