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cdcastillo

macrumors 68000
Dec 22, 2007
1,714
2,672
The cesspit of civilization
The fact that some people think that a certain object increases their status/makes a statement still doesn't have anything to do with the object, it's purely a psychological thing. Or to put it differently: it's all between the ears. This has got absolutely nothing to do with the object and its design at all...

Although I quite agree with you on the general concept, nonetheless, I have to refute the notion that the perception of status/statement has "absolutely nothing to do with the object in question and its design at all". While it is true that the value of a fountain pen as a "status symbol" is mainly psychological, of course the object, its history, craftsmanship and beauty has also something (as opposed to "nothing at all) to do with its value, perceived or factual.

Please do not come and try to tell us you actually believe the Visconti Talavera fountain pen set (the object itself and its inherent design, besides the fact that this limited edition sells for about 4 thousand dollars) has absolutely nothing to do with its intended transmission of status, and that the perception it broadcasts is the same you would get out of the Sheaffer VFM.
 
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MarcoCapa

macrumors regular
Jun 16, 2013
222
7
I write about ten sides of A4 a day as we can't take notes electronically at my school. Fountain pens make the whole thing a lot more fun.

On the off chance anyone in the UK is reading this and wants to try one, send me a PM as I've got a couple of less expensive pens I don't use and could give away.

What kind of paper do you use? I usually write on printer paper, but is not very good... I also have a midori notebook that is laying on the shelf waiting some use ( my agenda is completely electronically now) I have to find a new use to this...
 

cambookpro

macrumors 604
Feb 3, 2010
7,228
3,365
United Kingdom
What kind of paper do you use? I usually write on printer paper, but is not very good... I also have a midori notebook that is laying on the shelf waiting some use ( my agenda is completely electronically now) I have to find a new use to this...
Oxford Campus Refill paper - it's a fairly high gsm and is absolutely superb with fountain pens, even with broad nibs and wet inks there's no feathering and almost no showthrough.

I did use Rhodia which seems very popular with FP users but I don't really like it. Not anywhere near as good as the Oxford Optik paper in the refill pads.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
What kind of paper do you use? I usually write on printer paper, but is not very good... I also have a midori notebook that is laying on the shelf waiting some use ( my agenda is completely electronically now) I have to find a new use to this...

Actually, I was shopping for paper this very day.

With the increasing use of printers, - and the fact that you can use an inferior quality of paper with a printer - the quality of the paper used in the west has decreased. This becomes very noticeable when you write with fountain pens - many of the types of paper available today simply bleed, or feather when you use ink on them.

Lett's of London make good paper; and the US company Colonel Littleton makes excellent quality paper (I've used it and found it first rate).


Although I quite agree with you on the general concept, nonetheless, I have to refute the notion that the perception of status/statement has "absolutely nothing to do with the object in question and its design at all". While it is true that the value of a fountain pen as a "status symbol" is mainly psychological, of course the object, its history, craftsmanship and beauty has also something (as opposed to "nothing at all) to do with its value, perceived or factual.

Please do not come and try to tell us you actually believe the Visconti Talavera fountain pen set (the object itself and its inherent design, besides the fact that this limited edition sells for about 4 thousand dollars) has absolutely nothing to do with its intended transmission of status, and that the perception it broadcasts is the same you would get out of the Sheaffer VFM.

Bravo, very well said.
[doublepost=1454100018][/doublepost]
Oxford Campus Refill paper - it's a fairly high gsm and is absolutely superb with fountain pens, even with broad nibs and wet inks there's no feathering and almost no showthrough.

I did use Rhodia which seems very popular with FP users but I don't really like it. Not anywhere near as good as the Oxford Optik paper in the refill pads.

I have used Rhodia - which is pretty good but is not actually anywhere as good as it might be.

Thanks for the heads up re the Oxford Campus Refill paper - I must look into that.
 
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dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
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While it is true that the value of a fountain pen as a "status symbol" is mainly psychological, of course the object, its history, craftsmanship and beauty has also something (as opposed to "nothing at all) to do with its value, perceived or factual.
You have a PhD in Exaggeration or something? It is just plain and simple: it's an object, no more and no less. It is us human beings that give it its meaning and it is a rather personal thing. As I said before, there are those who deem the Montblanc 149 special (a lot of the lawyers do) but it was never created for that. The pen was made for writing and that's the main reason why most people buy one (and some go nuts and buy a dozen, usually with the different nib types). That and because it looks nice. Some only buy it because of its value (there are collectors that do this).

Please do not come and try to tell us you actually believe the Visconti Talavera fountain pen set (the object itself and its inherent design, besides the fact that this limited edition sells for about 4 thousand dollars) has absolutely nothing to do with its intended transmission of status, and that the perception it broadcasts is the same you would get out of the Sheaffer VFM.
Again, you are seeing things that aren't there. It's just a rather thick and colourful fountain pen with a hefty price tag. Omas has similar pens like that but Omas creates pens that are meant for writing, not pens to be used as a status symbol. When you take a look at Maki-e pens you'll notice the hefty price tags but if you look at other Maki-e items you'll notice the very same price tag (they can easily reach beyond 4k). It's expensive stuff no matter the object and that's solely because it takes a lot of skill and time to create it. If you have a look at the bill of materials you'll also notice that for a lot of these pens the price tags are mainly caused by this. It isn't uncommon that the nib is about 1/3 or even 2/3 of the entire price of the pen. Also, the really expensive pens are bought by collectors who put them in their boxes in a safe. They never write with them. If they do it loses its value, it might even evaporate whatever they paid for it. Even dipping it can do that. Hidden objects are never a status symbol, they can't be because they are hidden.

The main reason that these are not meant for status: take a good look around you. How many still write and how many of them use a fountain pen? Most people consider fountain pens to be ridiculous things that leak and stain your fingers, clothes, etc. and seen as old fashioned. Only a very very small amount of people even notice these pens and an even smaller number will say something positive about it. Pens and fountain pens have a negative image to most people. Any marketeer would tell you that you'd be an absolute idiot to use something with such a negative image as a status symbol. The only status people will associate you with is that of "loser". The pen industry knows this and they are also build on a lot of tradition. Most still use the very same machines as they did when the company first started. They just build pens that look nice and write nice. If they don't, they won't sell any.

Might want to come back down to earth. You are exaggerating things. Pens are made for those who want to write with them (and thus pens are good for writing) and for those who want to collect them (which can go from cheap Lamy Safaris up to pens that are unique art pieces and cost a fortune). And lastly, pens have a too negative image for it to be a status symbol. It really is that simple.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
You have a PhD in Exaggeration or something? It is just plain and simple: it's an object, no more and no less. It is us human beings that give it its meaning and it is a rather personal thing. As I said before, there are those who deem the Montblanc 149 special (a lot of the lawyers do) but it was never created for that. The pen was made for writing and that's the main reason why most people buy one (and some go nuts and buy a dozen, usually with the different nib types). That and because it looks nice. Some only buy it because of its value (there are collectors that do this).


Again, you are seeing things that aren't there. It's just a rather thick and colourful fountain pen with a hefty price tag. Omas has similar pens like that but Omas creates pens that are meant for writing, not pens to be used as a status symbol. When you take a look at Maki-e pens you'll notice the hefty price tags but if you look at other Maki-e items you'll notice the very same price tag (they can easily reach beyond 4k). It's expensive stuff no matter the object and that's solely because it takes a lot of skill and time to create it. If you have a look at the bill of materials you'll also notice that for a lot of these pens the price tags are mainly caused by this. It isn't uncommon that the nib is about 1/3 or even 2/3 of the entire price of the pen. Also, the really expensive pens are bought by collectors who put them in their boxes in a safe. They never write with them. If they do it loses its value, it might even evaporate whatever they paid for it. Even dipping it can do that. Hidden objects are never a status symbol, they can't be because they are hidden.

The main reason that these are not meant for status: take a good look around you. How many still write and how many of them use a fountain pen? Most people consider fountain pens to be ridiculous things that leak and stain your fingers, clothes, etc. and seen as old fashioned. Only a very very small amount of people even notice these pens and an even smaller number will say something positive about it. Pens and fountain pens have a negative image to most people. Any marketeer would tell you that you'd be an absolute idiot to use something with such a negative image as a status symbol. The only status people will associate you with is that of "loser". The pen industry knows this and they are also build on a lot of tradition. Most still use the very same machines as they did when the company first started. They just build pens that look nice and write nice. If they don't, they won't sell any.

Might want to come back down to earth. You are exaggerating things. Pens are made for those who want to write with them (and thus pens are good for writing) and for those who want to collect them (which can go from cheap Lamy Safaris up to pens that are unique art pieces and cost a fortune). And lastly, pens have a too negative image for it to be a status symbol. It really is that simple.

I beg to differ.

Now, in parts of the the world other than the US, I have seen powerful individuals use fountain pens as status symbols.

And while - to quote your post - 'most people' may indeed consider fountain pens 'ridiculous', some do not, and this thread was created by such people to discuss fountain pens

Anyway, dismissive and pejorative judgements using words such as 'old-fashioned' and 'ridiculous' are, to me, indicative of a rather rigid perspective on the world. Indeed, only a narrow-mindied individual would hold such views.

For that matter, it is perfectly possible to use computers and fountain pens, both at the same time, and this is what I do.

Personally, I have been using them to write with since my teens, and I rarely use anything else.
 
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MarcoCapa

macrumors regular
Jun 16, 2013
222
7
A pen like many other products in a society is a status symbol. It has always been.
Sure, but in my opinion buy it if you can afford and if you like...
Beside the thousand Euro pens ( great in many ways, but very overpriced) the other pens like month land 14* are affordable, with some savings (coffe etc)
They are status simble of corse, but on some aspects they are superior ( design, quality in writing etc.), like a more expensive car ( see some things like the quality of dashboard in them)
Said that I like my kale I in neon yellow with pelican highlighter ink as much as I like my mbs
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
Actually, on the topic of fountain pens, yesterday, I took a look at a few of the Writers' Series that an excellent pen shop stocks; they had the Daniel Defoe model, the Leo Tolstoy - which i though quite horrible - the Jonathan Swift model, and a few others, including the John F Kennedy model (a different range, the Great Characters series). Last year, elsewhere, I had seen the Humboldt model, which was massive, monstrous and macho.

For guys with large, meaty hands, such pens may serve as status symbol, physically attractive object, and writing instrument. However, they are too large for me, and were heavy and unwieldy in my hand.

I also noticed the Mont Blanc 'Starwalker' range, clearly designed to appeal to a somewhat younger demographic - the name alone says a lot.

From what I could see, the shop had a number of different models, but I only tried two. Personally, I wasn't all that crazy about the 'Starwalker Urban Speed' - it comes with a dashing red line, but the 'Starwalker Extreme' was a far nicer pen. Still not really to my taste, though.

However, my favourite of the day was a Classique Meisterstuck from the 90 Years anniversary series - this pen wrote like dream and was beautifully balanced in my hand. Moreover, it had an absolutely gorgeous nib, one which facilitated writing, too.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
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In a coffee shop.
S, what type of nib the Classique Meisterstuck from the 90 Years anniversary series had (EF, F, M)?

Ah, there were two such pens, and I wrote with both. Personally, I prefer the 'F' nib - it was really beautiful and 'flexible'. So much so, that I am contemplating a purchase. It is a really beautiful pen, and very nicely made.

In Istanbul over a year ago, in transit between continents, I spotted a version Special Edition Classique 90th Anniversary Meisterstuck Pen which was nothing short of gorgeous (dark navy speckled resin casing), but decided to forego purchasing it.

The 'Starwalker' pens were very hard - not massive - in the wrist, but rigid.

Now, I can understand the idea behind the design, attract a younger demographic, design something that doesn't look like a Mont Blanc, with a 'clean' more modern line. The pens are attractive - especially the 'Extreme' - but the cap was poorly designed to my eye - it just looked disproportionate, and bulbous, and lacked the clean lines of the pen.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Almost all fountain pen aficionados prefer F or in some cases EF. I don't know why but I got used to M over the decades. Writing with an M nib is like "European Shodō" for me. ;)

Well, I use fountain pens to take minutes, and take notes, and prepare briefings. Thus, there are some days when i actually use them to write quite a bit Some of my larger pens (I have one or two pens in the 146 size - which is already uncomfortably large for my hand, and, to make matters worse, they seem to have come equipped with the M nib).

Over time, I have found that I much prefer the 'F' nib - and this is what really struck me about the classique 90 Year anniversary pen I spotted yesterday. Actually, it is a 145, but sat easily and comfortably in my hand, and wrote like dream. The nib wasn't just 'F', but was also beautifully 'flexible'.
 

Regbial

macrumors 6502a
Jul 10, 2010
876
776
"The point"? Does there have to be a point?

Why not ask "why do you prefer to use a fountain pen instead of an ordinary pen"?

I prefer it. It feels better in my hand - ballpoint pens feel horrible to use, and - while I can tolerate rollerballs, I still prefer fountain pens.

Fountain pens are physically nicer to write with than are regular pens. Is a Ferrari nicer than a - name me some anonymous America brand of motor-car manufacturer, please? Perhaps a Ford?

If you are using a well-made fountain pen that balances beautifully in your hand it is a physical pleasure to write with - as opposed to something that varies between Hard Work and Torture when you use it to write with. And an aching wrist. The ink flows beautifully, and it makes your writing look more elegant, classy - and - readable.

Besides, when you write with a well-made and ergonomically balanced fountain pen you want to write with this thing, (at least I do), and the ink glides across the page - somehow it makes the physical act of writing - one of the greatest achievements of humanity - ever - an act of transcendental pleasure and delight.

Therefore, when writing with a fountain pen, you have the luxury of thinking that every word may matter. Fountain pens allow you to think that the written word matters, - and it does - and that merely writing with them allows for the creation of crafted prose, rather than churned out…..dross.

Aren't fountain pens really "scrapey" though?? Or have I only used bad ones?
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
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In a coffee shop.
Aren't fountain pens really "scrapey" though?? Or have I only used bad ones?

Well, here is what I suggest you do: Why not try writing with a well made fountain pen, - try it in a good, reputable, fountain pen shop - (the will be happy to let you do so) - one that sits comfortably in your hand, has a nib that is comfortable and easy on your wrist and enables an easy ink flow, on good quality paper, and then, come back and tell me if you still think it is "scrapey".
 
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Ulenspiegel

macrumors 68040
Nov 8, 2014
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Land of Flanders and Elsewhere
@Regbial: Most probably, you have not used a good quality fountain pen or one that did not fit your way (angle, pressure etc.) of writing.
I second Scepticalscribe's suggestion.

@Scepticalscribe: Istanbul... There is a "pen district" right next to the Spice Bazaar. i usually spend hours there. Last time I managed to find a refill for one of my (favorite) vintage Sheaffer ballpoint pens.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
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In a coffee shop.
@Regbial: Most probably, you have not used a good quality fountain pen or one that did not fit your way (angle, pressure etc.) of writing.
I second Scepticalscribe's suggestion.

@Scepticalscribe: Istanbul... There is a "pen district" right next to the Spice Bazaar. i usually spend hours there. Last time I managed to find a refill for one of my (favorite) vintage Sheaffer ballpoint pens.

Ah, while I have overnighted on several occasions in Istanbul, it has just been that - over-nighting, heading into the Old Town for a few hours strolling, decompression and chilling - and then flying further west to the damp and drizzle of north western Europe.

That sounds fascinating. Last time I was there, I also fell into a map shop that was amazing. A "Pen District"? Sounds irresistible. Next to the Spice Bazaar - another place I could easily lose myself?
 

Ulenspiegel

macrumors 68040
Nov 8, 2014
3,212
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Land of Flanders and Elsewhere
Ah, while I have overnighted on several occasions in Istanbul, it has just been that - over-nighting, heading into the Old Town for a few hours strolling, decompression and chilling - and then flying further west to the damp and drizzle of north western Europe.

That sounds fascinating. Last time I was there, I also fell into a map shop that was amazing. A "Pen District"? Sounds irresistible. Next to the Spice Bazaar - another place I could easily lose myself?

S, you would enjoy it, immensly. Almost all shops work like left in the good ole days. Papers with different surfaces, hardness, old and modern little ink tanks all over the place to try the colour, the flow etc. Walls full of pens, refills and accessories for calligraphy...
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,181
47,566
In a coffee shop.
S, you would enjoy it, immensly. Almost all shops work like left in the good ole days. Papers with different surfaces, hardness, old and modern little ink tanks all over the place to try the colour, the flow etc. Walls full of pens, refills and accessories for calligraphy...

Sounds like pen paradise.

The closest I came to to what you have described was a visit last year to the wonderful little treasure that goes by the name of "Penfriend" in the Burlington Arcade in Piccadilly, in the centre of London.
 
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OllyW

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 11, 2005
17,196
6,800
The Black Country, England
My modest little fountain pen collection.

Left to right:
Parker 45 - I bought this while at junior school in the mid 1970s.
Parker 25 - Part of a set of 3 pens and a pencil I bought while at college in the early 1980s.
Parker Frontier - A gift from my sister and her husband when I was the usher at their wedding in 1998.

2016-01-30_130431162_654FD_iOS   (2016-01-30T13_14_32.415).jpg
 

dyn

macrumors 68030
Aug 8, 2009
2,708
388
.nl
Now, in parts of the the world other than the US, I have seen powerful individuals use fountain pens as status symbols.
Then you absolutely failed to understand the point. Pens have never been made/designed with status in mind, they have been made to look nice and write nice. No more, no less. The meaning of status and the use as a status symbol is purely a psychological one, it is us humans who gave it that meaning and we do it to almost any object.

And while - to quote your post - 'most people' may indeed consider fountain pens 'ridiculous', some do not, and this thread was created by such people to discuss fountain pens
uckily we have lots of sites and communities to share and discuss pens and everything that comes along with it.

Anyway, dismissive and pejorative judgements using words such as 'old-fashioned' and 'ridiculous' are, to me, indicative of a rather rigid perspective on the world. Indeed, only a narrow-mindied individual would hold such views.
LSadly there are too many people who think about it that way and ignore the fact that pens have a far more positive effect when studying and creating things (which scientific study has shown). Pens in general are definitely not ridiculous and old-fashioned and it is very very unwise to get rid of handwriting in education. The people who are trying to get rid of it in favour of the keyboard have really no idea what they are doing and what impact it will have. As the Surface Pro and iPad Pro have shown, there is a place for pens in the digital world. How sad would it be if people started to lose the skill to use them?
And yes, many of us do use pens because they are analog, because they aren't tied to technology.

For that matter, it is perfectly possible to use computers and fountain pens, both at the same time, and this is what I do.
Same here and I get frowned upon except for one person who thinks it is awesome that I still write stuff down and even more awesome that I do it with a fountain pen. Bit awkward because she sometimes just watches me write :confused:

A pen like many other products in a society is a status symbol. It has always been.
Only when people know to value it.

For guys with large, meaty hands, such pens may serve as status symbol, physically attractive object, and writing instrument. However, they are too large for me, and were heavy and unwieldy in my hand.
For those with big hands the only option are the bigger pens because of the length. You want the barrel to rest on the web of your hands for a more comfortable writing experience and also for more control. You could get a smaller version and post the cap but most pens are not designed with that in mind. It'll make them top heavy and throws off the balance which doesn't write very nice. Some pens can't even post the cap (physically impossible or it falls off). This is also a personal choice, some people just don't like posting. For those with smaller hands the larger pens are not recommended because they are too large which will not be very comfortable.

The best thing one could do is try the pen. See if it fits nicely in your hand and if it writes comfortably. That's why you go fountain pen in the first place :D Price doesn't really matter, maybe having a gold nib does (most find it more comfortable to write with).

Aren't fountain pens really "scrapey" though?? Or have I only used bad ones?
They can be. It depends on the ink, paper, pen and what you are used to. There are people who find F anything smaller than that to be scratchy (just as some find an M or broader to write too wet and/or too smooth). Smooth paper like the Rhodia offerings helps a lot. If you are used to that and start writing with average paper you may find that to be something similar as writing on sanding paper. Some pens (or nibs I should say) are bit more toothy than others. That's another reason why you should try them out in a shop if you can.

Btw, in the western world the F-nib is considered a nib for every day writing, the broader ones are used for things like signatures and calligraphy. In countries like Japan it's the EF-nib. Also do note that not every F/EF/etc. nib is an F/EF/etc. nib, there are small variances (well, I've seen F-nibs writing like an M). There is also quite a difference in what is an F in Europe and Japan (Japanese F is like a European EF). More importantly, the size of the nib has to match your handwriting and intended use.

@OllyW: that is nice classic set!
 
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