Gaming on M395X: I'm satisfied

[imacken]

I too am extremely satisfied with my 5k iMac for gaming.
Currently running Alien Isolation, Max Payne 3, F1 2013, GRID, Hitman Absolution, Elite Dangerous, Spec Ops - The Line, SOMA etc. all on OS X at either high or ultra settings @ 2560x1440, and all perfectly smooth and wonderful.
Also running Witcher 3 as smooth as you like on Bootcamp on high at same res.
Huge leap forward from my 2011 1Gb 6970M performance!

 

[iemcj]

Also running Witcher 3 as smooth as you like on Bootcamp on high at same res.

So just to make sure I understand, you're saying you can run the witcher 3 at 1440 on high settings and keep framerates above 30fps? That's actually pretty impressive!

 

[imacken]

I get 25-32 with full High settings, but I have Hairworks switched off and get 32-38. Same spec as you!

 

[dborod]

I'll go tomorrow to an Apple store and check the fan noise... any idea how to push fan to 2000rpm with stock app?

If you launch the terminal application, paste this in and press return:

yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null &​

This will start 8 processes that each want to consume all the CPU, so it will max out the 4 cores and 4 virtual cores of an i7.

Make sure to type

killall yes​

in the terminal window when you're done.

 

[Laai]

If you launch the terminal application, paste this in and press return:

yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null & yes > /dev/null &​

This will start 8 processes that each want to consume all the CPU, so it will max out the 4 cores and 4 virtual cores of an i7.

Make sure to type

killall yes​

in the terminal window when you're done.

Ok this is crazy:

For some reason, using iStat Pro I only See "Apple Main" and "SSD" Temps. After downloading TG Pro I can see all temps. I used your command for about 10 Minutes now and my iMac (stock i5, 8GB, 256 SSD, M395X) is still humming at 1200rpm fan speed. Like said, CPU is at 100%... I don't believe this.

Granted, it is late at night and the room is a tad cooled than normal, but this crazy (good).

 

[dborod]

Yes, this does bode well, but keep in mind that unlike other stress tests, these commands only exercise the CPU cores and don't stress the GPU, SSD, RAM in any way.

 

[imacken]

Ok this is crazy:

For some reason, using iStat Pro I only See "Apple Main" and "SSD" Temps. After downloading TG Pro I can see all temps. I used your command for about 10 Minutes now and my iMac (stock i5, 8GB, 256 SSD, M395X) is still humming at 1200rpm fan speed. Like said, CPU is at 100%... I don't believe this.

Granted, it is late at night and the room is a tad cooled than normal, but this crazy (good).

Yep, same here. I tried that stress test, and the fan still kept at 1200rpm. In fact I had to set smcFanControl to 2000rpm to make sure the fans were still working OK!

 

[andy9l]

No argument about the GPU, there. It does seem to be slightly less heat-output'y, at least in your tests.

That said, I would LOVE to see big improvements every year. The world doesn't revolve around me and my inability to buy a new computer every year, but for others who are waiting? I know they're disappointed. Heck, even in my circles the collective groans that I heard when the GPU was revealed... oy... just sad. I have one friend who really wanted to buy the 5K last year but really was holding out for a GPU upgrade - and is now wondering why he bothered waiting.

Honestly, those who bought the 5K iMac last year are going to get the "best value" out of their systems, since they've had their delicious 5K screens a year now with a GPU 99% of the speed of the 2015 GPU. Then, next year, when the real GPU upgrade (hopefully) shows up, people who bought the 2015 5K iMacs are going to feel slighted, while the rest have had their system two years, and are more likely to maybe upgrade.

Remember, you can't please everyone. But it doesn't detract from Apple's pricing really being even more of a joke to get the M395X when it's just what appears to be a slightly modified M295X, and only barely at that. The M395X should have been standard on the high-end 27" 5K iMac, with an option for some awesome modified Nvidia (or heck, AMD) part.

I'm not made of money, but if the 2015 5K iMac had featured the GPU upgrade a lot of us hoped for, I'd have gotten one in an instant.

WilliamG! Remember me from the iMac discussions last year?! Glad to see you're well.

I'm in that group bit I've highlighted in the quote above. I mean, it's just the same again this year but seemingly without the thermal throttling. I guess that could be considered...an upgrade?

Either way, bit disappointing. Agree that the high end GPU should be something a little bit more special – much like the CPU. It just looks like Apple has signed some naff 2-3 year deal with AMD...

If the heat issues and thermal throttling really have been fixed, then I probably will just pull the trigger this year...again. Good to see some satisfied customers - more-so this year than last, it seems.

This product is just so overdue a redesign, I don't know if I can bring myself to do it!

 

[iemcj]

Heat issue is largely gone. You can find dozens of people doing comparison tests of last years version to this one, the Skylake cpu which naturally runs cooler coupled with a higher rpm fan coupled with apple changing up the internals to have the fan kick in slightly faster, it all pulls together for a gpu that doesn't throttle cuz it just doesn't get hot enough to worry about it. I was in bootcamp and did a stress test of maxing the cpu for 20 minutes, it reached 100c within 5 minutes but then quickly dropped down to upper 80s because the fan turned on. Either way, if someone is THAT worried about heat then they clearly should be buying a mac pro lol.

I'd disagree on overdue for redesign. What really needs to change? Apart from tbolt 3, maybe some more usb ports, what else do you need? I give zero craps about a thinner bezel, zero craps about how thin it is, the built in speakers are very good for everything short of "play music loudly at a party", I hope it doesn't sound like I'm a fanboy but really there's not much else to even DO. Much as I would like a real desktop GPU for gaming, this means the computer housing would need to get much bigger to accommodate a larger graphics card, fans, liquid cooling system, all that jazz just to keep it from melting. I'm curious what exactly it is you would say needs a "redesign"? I genuinely am curious.

 

[Fried Potato]

Damn, I should have waited with my RiMac purchase. I bought mine in February and recently started worrying about the heat generated by the GPU when playing...

Do you think it's possibly in any way to get my iMac exchanged for a new (M385X) one? I don't know if the heat counts as a warranty issue. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware about the heat problem until a couple of days ago, when I installet "iStat", otherwise, I would have contacted Apple much sooner.

 

[iemcj]

Well to be fair, it's not THAT often where it'll actually happen. Mainly during full all out sustained cpu tasks (such as ripping a full quality blu ray to mkv). During 95 percent of most users times? Won't happen. During most gaming you're rarely going to max out the cpu, the gpu will be maxed and that's not going to be a whole lot different in last years vs this current one. So while we do have a computer that'll stay cooler, it's not like what you have is actually a problem, a LOT of pros have used it nicely and a lot of gamers have had fun with it.

 

[andy9l]

I'm curious what exactly it is you would say needs a "redesign"? I genuinely am curious.

I never said it needs one. I'm just going by the fact that it's been an identical product, visually, for over 3 years now. That's a long time.

I used to think the 13" rMBP was a beautiful machine - then they released the rMB and the rMBP suddenly looks 10 years old. My point is, if you and I knew what the next gen iMac would look like, we'd probably be working at Apple.

Back to the topic; I bought a maxed 5K iMac last year but returned it due to the throttling issue. @Fried Potato there's no way you'll be able to return that iMac if you're out of your 14 day window. Even if you somehow managed it, they'd replace it with the same model.

 

[AlifTheUnseen]

<snip>
I'd disagree on overdue for redesign. What really needs to change? Apart from tbolt 3, maybe some more usb ports, what else do you need? I give zero craps about a thinner bezel, zero craps about how thin it is, the built in speakers are very good for everything short of "play music loudly at a party", I hope it doesn't sound like I'm a fanboy but really there's not much else to even DO. Much as I would like a real desktop GPU for gaming, this means the computer housing would need to get much bigger to accommodate a larger graphics card, fans, liquid cooling system, all that jazz just to keep it from melting. I'm curious what exactly it is you would say needs a "redesign"? I genuinely am curious.

I think the iMac needs a redesign, starting with giving that desktop aio a case that is not only beautiful to look at, but has excellent thermal properties. While I agree that the iMac is in general a very good system with an excellent price if you count everything in, the iMac is just not balanced wrt to the gpu. You get the best desktop-class cpu available, you get very fast SSDs, but no TB3, no USB-C/3.1, you get a very very good screen with 5K, but you get a mediocre gpu pushing those millions of pixels. The new Mac Pro was perfect, from all points of view, as long as you accepted the policy of 'external' add-ons. From an engineering point of view, the 2014 RiMac is a disaster - as it needs throttling to keep the system within safe operational parameters (one can dwell in the reality distortion field as long as one wants, but throttling is a sign that either the case and cooling system are not able to handle the heat produced or the components are wrongly chosen for the given cooling performance). I am very glad to hear that the 2015 RiMac doesn't rely on throttling, as it seems.

So, my wishlist for the redesigned RiMac V3 would be:
(- USB-C/3.1 and TB3)
- better case/cooling system
- desktop-class gpu
- ability to add another SSD without taking apart the whole system (won't happen, I know, but allow some dreams)
- possibility to use the iMac as a screen (target display mode)

Better even, Apple should at last offer an xMac (a desktop mac without screen but user-replaceable desktop components, e.g. GPU, SSD, RAM).

 

[Fried Potato]

Well to be fair, it's not THAT often where it'll actually happen. Mainly during full all out sustained cpu tasks (such as ripping a full quality blu ray to mkv). During 95 percent of most users times? Won't happen. During most gaming you're rarely going to max out the cpu, the gpu will be maxed and that's not going to be a whole lot different in last years vs this current one. So while we do have a computer that'll stay cooler, it's not like what you have is actually a problem, a LOT of pros have used it nicely and a lot of gamers have had fun with it.

Well, someone reported in the Fallout 4 thread that his M395X reaches around 75°C while playing it on "ultra settings" in 1440p. Mine reaches around 100°C while playing it on "medium settings", although still on the same resolution. HWiNFO64 (Boot Camp) reported also that my CPU got around 100°C and those numbers were red.

Back to the topic; I bought a maxed 5K iMac last year but returned it due to the throttling issue. @Fried Potato there's no way you'll be able to return that iMac if you're out of your 14 day window. Even if you somehow managed it, they'd replace it with the same model.

Isn't throttling a warranty issue? We have a law here in Sweden stating: If a product isn't functioning as it should after three waranty claims, the purchase can be voided (as a private consumer, that is).

I'm unfortunately scared that the computer might suddenly die in the future by me playing Fallout 4 (or other games too). I have played WoW before on this computer, but I wasn't aware about the heat issues back then. I might be worrying in vain; the problem mightn't be as big as I'm making it, but the computer wasn't cheap to begin with to leave me with thoughts about it dying...

Also, it seems like Apple's left us with the M295X out in the open, in regards to 5k resolution in Windows. I made a clean Windows 10 install through Boot Camp a couple of days ago, 4k is still the highest available resolution...

 

[andy9l]

Well, someone reported in the Fallout 4 thread that his M395X reaches around 75°C while playing it on "ultra settings" in 1440p. Mine reaches around 100°C while playing it on "medium settings", although still on the same resolution. HWiNFO64 (Boot Camp) reported also that my CPU got around 100°C and those numbers were red.

Isn't throttling a warranty issue? We have a law here in Sweden stating: If a product isn't functioning as it should after three waranty claims, the purchase can be voided (as a private consumer, that is).

I'm unfortunately scared that the computer might suddenly die in the future by me playing Fallout 4 (or other games too). I have played WoW before on this computer, but I wasn't aware about the heat issues back then. I might be worrying in vain; the problem mightn't be as big as I'm making it, but the computer wasn't cheap to begin with to leave me with thoughts about it dying...

Unfortunately not. The components are designed to throttle in order to prevent damage. Apple have decided to rely on this rather than develop a better cooling system as extensively described in this thread.

Your iMac is working as expected. The advertised clock speeds will have numerous caveats. We have the same law in the UK for up to six years.

Unless your iMac starts shutting down, or your gaming performance is heavily impacted - then you shouldn't worry about temps. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what temperatures you're running at. Just don't worth about them. It's hot, it's loud, but it's still a brilliant machine.

 

[Fried Potato]

Unfortunately not. The components are designed to throttle in order to prevent damage. Apple have decided to rely on this rather than develop a better cooling system as extensively described in this thread.

Your iMac is working as expected. The advertised clock speeds will have numerous caveats. We have the same law in the UK for up to six years.

Up to three years here in Sweden.

So you'd say that I should continue playing, and stop worrying? I ain't unsatisfied with the performance, as I'm aware that it isn't a gaming PC. I'm mostly afraid of it dying after my Apple Care runs out. The CPU numbers turning red in "HWinFO" startled me too, so isn't only the GPU. But I don't think I've experienced any "actual" throttling; I played Fallout 4 for nearly an hour without any issues, it was only the temperature numbers that scared me.

I've actually downloaded "Macs Fan Control" to turn the fans up to max (2700 rpm), it helps a bit actually. Just hoping that the fans won't wear out too much.

 

[andy9l]

So you'd say that I should continue playing, and stop worrying? I ain't unsatisfied with the performance, as I'm aware that it isn't a gaming PC. I'm mostly afraid of it dying after my Apple Care runs out.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You should uninstall Macs Fan Control too to avoid inadvertently damaging anything. Leave the iMac to control itself.

During the time I had my 5K iMac I absolutely hammered it for hours on end. It never gave up, never throttled any more than the rest and performed perfectly well. I returned mine on the principle that I paid for X but really got Y because of Apple's design.

Stop worrying, uninstall anything that messes with your hardware or SMC (and reset it), and enjoy your iMac.

If it melts, get a full refund and buy a new one.

And as for your AppleCare worries...you run that risk with every Apple product you buy. Some will last, some will die. Just luck.

 

[Laai]

So, I do have one complaint regarding this new iMac and it is regarding Drivers for the GFX Card under Windows. I have used nVidia for a long time and I get the feeling that AMD is lagging behind on driver support.

When using Nvidia, the first thing I did after installing windows is install newest GFX drives from Nvidia website. This ensured I was always up-to-date and it did really give me a small GPU boost.

On AMD side however, their website does not even recognize their own GPU. My guess is, that this GPU is so new and "special" that they have not yet had the time to incorporate the GFX drivers into their normal Catalyst release... which is a little bit sad, but I hope this changes soon. The reason I am looking for this update is, that GPU manufacturers update their GFX cards much faster than Apple does.

On a sidenote (and in contrast to one of mine previous posts): when I play CS:GO the iMac is really silent. The fan speeds up, but it does so by a very small margin. Game settings are on 1440p, everything to highest setting, except for AA and such. FPS is somewhere around 180. I can easily go above 200fps if I lower the settings and stay on 1440p, but the difference there is not quite noticeable and I like my games pretty ^^

 

[MandiMac]

On AMD side however, their website does not even recognize their own GPU. My guess is, that this GPU is so new and "special" that they have not yet had the time to incorporate the GFX drivers into their normal Catalyst release... which is a little bit sad, but I hope this changes soon. The reason I am looking for this update is, that GPU manufacturers update their GFX cards much faster than Apple does.

Wrong. If you're looking at the driver, you see that Apple tweaked it so that the generic AMD driver doesn't apply to it anymore. AMD recognizes their own GPU, of course, because the M395X and its brethren are available on Windows only laptops, too. This is entirely Apple's responsibility.

 

[Laai]

Wrong. If you're looking at the driver, you see that Apple tweaked it so that the generic AMD driver doesn't apply to it anymore. AMD recognizes their own GPU, of course, because the M395X and its brethren are available on Windows only laptops, too. This is entirely Apple's responsibility.

So am I safe to install the AMD drivers without any issues?

 

[MandiMac]

So am I safe to install the AMD drivers without any issues?

Unfortunately not. AMD can't recognize the M395X in the riMac because Apple tweaked the drivers ever so slightly, and every Catalyst install will tell you that you don't have an AMD card.

 

[Laai]

Unfortunately not. AMD can't recognize the M395X in the riMac because Apple tweaked the drivers ever so slightly, and every Catalyst install will tell you that you don't have an AMD card.

This is what I'm getting at. AMD/Apple basically messed up here if you ask me. I've had Apple for years now and always with the nVidia card. With nVidia cards this is a non-issue. You just hop over to their website and install the newest drivers and you're done. All of the latest fixes and game optimizations are there. Here I'll have to wait for Apple to update bootcamp drivers... once the planets align... and the galaxy has rotated thrice...

 

[v.i.p.e.r]

i don't understand what is exactly the problem. Maybe apple changed something with the driver (maybe to change fan speeds to something like that) what amd don't want to support. Same like not throtteling the Core-M in the macbook

 

[MandiMac]

This is what I'm getting at. AMD/Apple basically messed up here if you ask me. I've had Apple for years now and always with the nVidia card. With nVidia cards this is a non-issue. You just hop over to their website and install the newest drivers and you're done. All of the latest fixes and game optimizations are there. Here I'll have to wait for Apple to update bootcamp drivers... once the planets align... and the galaxy has rotated thrice...

Yeah, and it's Apple's fault for tweaking the drivers in the first place.
Don't mind me asking, I'm with you here: I too fancy having the newest drivers on my hardware, but is there another reason why you'd want to update the driver?

 

[iemcj]

So how DO you get updated bootcamp drivers? I've never seen an option to do this sorta thing, amd released a bunch of new drivers the past two weeks (no shock considering all the new games that came out), how do we as imac owner download them?