Goodbye Apple TV, Playstation 3 rules!

[petvas]

Because the file format used by Apple for HD rentals includes an AC3 stream for 5.1 audio. While the ATV just passes the signal straight to the optical port without modification, a proper solution for a high end Mac should require the ability to decode the stream for discreet channel output. Since QT currently has no ability to handle AC3 in any fashion (discreet or pass-through) your high end Mac would be limited to stereo PLII sound.

HD rentals have only been available for a couple of months with the priority of working correctly with the ATV. The coding and licensing issues with Dolby increases the complexity of a general QT implementation. It my be that the rather then delaying the ATV HD option, the released it as is and will circle back for QT.

But yes, for now it sucks.

I don't think that this is the reason. Its pretty obvious that Apple doesn't want us to see the files we are downloading .The problem is only piracy...
Now Apple has a closed system that makes it difficult for normal users to see what they are actually downloading.

 

[defender1844]

Because the file format used by Apple for HD rentals includes an AC3 stream for 5.1 audio. While the ATV just passes the signal straight to the optical port without modification, a proper solution for a high end Mac should require the ability to decode the stream for discreet channel output. Since QT currently has no ability to handle AC3 in any fashion (discreet or pass-through) your high end Mac would be limited to stereo PLII sound.

HD rentals have only been available for a couple of months with the priority of working correctly with the ATV. The coding and licensing issues with Dolby increases the complexity of a general QT implementation. It my be that the rather then delaying the ATV HD option, the released it as is and will circle back for QT.

But yes, for now it sucks.

But the Apple TV has stereo analog outputs. If the ATV has a 5.1 to 2 channel D/A converter built in and the Mac Mini has an analog output as well I don't see this as an issue but I could be wrong.

 

[tstarks33]

You keep saying it is an either-or choice. It's not. I regularly watch content on my AppleTV, my blu ray player, and Tivo as well. There's a reason your tv has more then one set of inputs.

Yep, I have multiple as well. None are perfect, so if you are unwilling to sacrifice in some area, then you have to go with multiple machines.

I will say that the Ps3 plays games better than the Apple tv, tho.

 

[P-Worm]

But the Apple TV has stereo analog outputs. If the ATV has a 5.1 to 2 channel D/A converter built in and the Mac Mini has an analog output as well I don't see this as an issue but I could be wrong.

You can't send 5.1 AC3 over the red and white audio jacks.

P-Worm

 

[techlover828]

sorry, didn't have time to read too much of the thread. So what's the best format for downloading movies onto ps3? I got one for christmas and am still trying to figure out whats the best format/way to convert movies to that format. I have MTR, Handbrake, Visual Hub. Thanks for your help!

 

[err404]

I don't think that this is the reason. Its pretty obvious that Apple doesn't want us to see the files we are downloading .The problem is only piracy...
Now Apple has a closed system that makes it difficult for normal users to see what they are actually downloading.

It's trivial to get at the files on an ATV for anybody that would be interested. With just a flash stick and 15 minutes, a semi-technical person can follow the guides at the hacking sites and get access to the ATV file system. But even once you have the file, it's encrypted using a DRM similar to what the SD files use. So far the encryption schema has been very difficult to circumvent.
Besides for a pirate there would be no advantage. It's easier to just source a pirated copy from a BD disc.

But the Apple TV has stereo analog outputs. If the ATV has a 5.1 to 2 channel D/A converter built in and the Mac Mini has an analog output as well I don't see this as an issue but I could be wrong.

That's just it, the ATV is not able to convert 5.1 to 2.0. They achieve stereo sound by having a second AAC audio stream in the source file. Currently QT just ignores the AC3 stream, so your Mac would have no means to playback 5.1. It can be addressed, but it 'could' require a significant update to the QT codecs for an elegant solution. They could just use passthrough to the mini's optical port, but that won't allow for a general 5.1 solution since many 6 channel PC solutions are analog (keep in mind that this would have to work in iTunes for windows also)

BTW - Third party codecs for QT do allow 5.1 playback of ATV formatted 5.1 files, but there may be licensing issues for Apple to overcome before implementing a similar method.

 

[err404]

sorry, didn't have time to read too much of the thread. So what's the best format for downloading movies onto ps3? I got one for christmas and am still trying to figure out whats the best format/way to convert movies to that format. I have MTR, Handbrake, Visual Hub. Thanks for your help!

It depends on your source. If you are creating a file from a DVD, use HB (MTR or Fairmount might be needed to help HB read protected discs).

MTR - read protected discs and dump to raw file (good for batch processing)
Fairmount - read protected discs real time
HB - create compressed video file from DVD
VH - transcode compressed video file to different formats

(each time HB or VH are used, the resultant file looks a bit worse then the source)

 

[techlover828]

It depends on your source. If you are creating a file from a DVD, use HB (MTR or Fairmount might be needed to help HB read protected discs).

MTR - read protected discs and dump to raw file (good for batch processing)
Fairmount - read protected discs real time
HB - create compressed video file from DVD
VH - transcode compressed video file to different formats

(each time HB or VH are used, the resultant file looks a bit worse then the source)

the source would be a DVD, I was mainly wondering what type of format would be the best for saving to the PS3.

 

[err404]

the source would be a DVD, I was mainly wondering what type of format would be the best for saving to the PS3.

I don't have HB on my work PC... but if I recall correctly, HB has a PS3 preset. You will want to use h.264, and probably a single pass CRF encode at 65% or 70% (assuming quality is a priority over fixed size). If there isn't a PS3 preset, try the Apple TV one and change the mode to AAC sound only (w/o AC3)

 

[techlover828]

I don't have HB on my work PC... but if I recall correctly, HB has a PS3 preset. You will want to use h.264, and probably a single pass CRF encode at 65% or 70% (assuming quality is a priority over fixed size). If there isn't a PS3 preset, try the Apple TV one and change the mode to AAC sound only (w/o AC3)

you're right, I'm an idiot, thanks. Is there anyway to like install an app on the PS3 (without linux) that would be more specifically designed for movies?

 

[err404]

the source would be a DVD, I was mainly wondering what type of format would be the best for saving to the PS3.

I just confirmed. The current HB does have a PS3 preset.

-edit- response is out-of-order

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

Because the file format used by Apple for HD rentals includes an AC3 stream for 5.1 audio. While the ATV just passes the signal straight to the optical port without modification, a proper solution for a high end Mac should require the ability to decode the stream for discreet channel output. Since QT currently has no ability to handle AC3 in any fashion (discreet or pass-through) your high end Mac would be limited to stereo PLII sound.

How is that a "proper" high-end solution? A PROPER high-end solution would mean sending the signal to a high-end external decoder, not processing it on the Mac itself. No Mac has a decent sound card anyway (just straight out optical or stereo analog).

I think the real reason you don't see any HDTV rentals on a Mac (and won't likely ever on current Mac models) is the lack of HDMI outputs. Admittedly, the AppleTV also has component which would seem to negate that argument, but I know with things like Blu-Ray they want the secure aspect of the HDMI interface to prevent unauthorized copying of HD material. So far, all the movies have no used that security (and component out works there also for now), but those units have the ABILITY to only show HD through HDMI and only show a 480P signal through the component outputs if the studio decides to use it on a given title. This means certain HDTV sets won't even be able to show HD in that case as early HDTVs did not have digital inputs or if they did, they had DVI, not HDMI (which can carry the security bit). Only AppleTV has HDMI. No "Mac" has ever had it and until one does, I think you're unlikely to see an HD option for the Mac. I'm guessing once Macs DO have HDMI outputs, ONLY those Macs will be allowed to rent HD movies. AFAIK (and I could be wrong), DVI cannot and/or does not carry the security bits/checks that the industry wants to prevent copying. Yes, it's dumb since the pirates will always find a way around it, but that's Hollywood (dumb).

 

[chrono1081]

I think its funny after all this arguing just sitting back and realizing the only reason people are buying PS3s are for Blu-Ray players not because of their games...all 12 of them .

 

[petvas]

I think its funny after all this arguing just sitting back and realizing the only reason people are buying PS3s are for Blu-Ray players not because of their games...all 12 of them .

Well, I am not a hard core gamer but I like to play a good game of Football (Soccer...) once in a while. A Blu-Ray player costs about the same money as a Playstation and the latter offers much more than a normal Blu-Ray player.

 

[err404]

How is that a "proper" high-end solution? A PROPER high-end solution would mean sending the signal to a high-end external decoder, not processing it on the Mac itself. No Mac has a decent sound card anyway (just straight out optical or stereo analog).

I think the real reason you don't see any HDTV rentals on a Mac (and won't likely ever on current Mac models) is the lack of HDMI outputs. Admittedly, the AppleTV also has component which would seem to negate that argument, but I know with things like Blu-Ray they want the secure aspect of the HDMI interface to prevent unauthorized copying of HD material. So far, all the movies have no used that security (and component out works there also for now), but those units have the ABILITY to only show HD through HDMI and only show a 480P signal through the component outputs if the studio decides to use it on a given title. This means certain HDTV sets won't even be able to show HD in that case as early HDTVs did not have digital inputs or if they did, they had DVI, not HDMI (which can carry the security bit). Only AppleTV has HDMI. No "Mac" has ever had it and until one does, I think you're unlikely to see an HD option for the Mac. I'm guessing once Macs DO have HDMI outputs, ONLY those Macs will be allowed to rent HD movies. AFAIK (and I could be wrong), DVI cannot and/or does not carry the security bits/checks that the industry wants to prevent copying. Yes, it's dumb since the pirates will always find a way around it, but that's Hollywood (dumb).

I meant "proper" in the sense that a lot of 5.1 capable machines running iTunes (most are Windows) have 5.1 sound cards with 6 channel analog out. For these users, a pass-through solution provides only stereo sound not 'proper' 5.1. So Apple can make a real solution that works for all 5.1 capable users or a quicker solution that only accommodates some. In either case it still stands that QT does not support pass-through or decoding. It needs to be updated before the HD files would be playable with 5.1.

As for the HDMI HD flag... it's possible, but being that the Apple TV is focusing on HD at 720p, HDMI offers little to no quality improvement. That said most Apple TV users are probably using component. If they change the rules and use the HDMI flag Apple would have a lot of mad consumers. As it stands today the flag is not used by any content in any HD format. It's frankly turned into a source of FUD.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I meant "proper" in the sense that a lot of 5.1 capable machines running iTunes (most are Windows) have 5.1 sound cards with 6 channel analog out.)

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about PCs running iTunes.

As for the HDMI HD flag... it's possible, but being that the Apple TV is focusing on HD at 720p, HDMI offers little to no quality improvement. That said most Apple TV users are probably using component. If they change the rules and use the HDMI flag Apple would have a lot of mad consumers. As it stands today the flag is not used by any content in any HD format. It's frankly turned into a source of FUD.

HDMI offers no quality improvement for 1080P over component either. It simply makes no difference except on long cable runs. But it will make a difference if they decide to use that flag to stop HD on component. I wouldn't even try to guess who uses what. The only reason I use component is my receiver only has component switching. I'd use HDMI if it had it since my projector is over 25' away from my receiver and long runs can induce line hum and other odd things with analog component. At short distances, it makes no difference at all.

 

[err404]

HDMI offers no quality improvement for 1080P over component either. It simply makes no difference except on long cable runs.

Other then most TV's wont except 1080p over component at all .
However my TV does. on my 360 running component at 1080p I can see an every so slight static pattern in smooth areas. When I say slight, I mean that it is completely invisible at anything approaching normal viewing distances. In fact I only noticed it all when I was 1ft from a 50" screen, getting a DVD from under the TV.
HDMI is cleaner, but really by such a slight amount that if your TV accepts both, it's probably not worth buying the HDMI cable.
In practice you are right, "it simply makes no difference".

 

[max619]

Well, I am not a hard core gamer but I like to play a good game of Football (Soccer...) once in a while. A Blu-Ray player costs about the same money as a Playstation and the latter offers much more than a normal Blu-Ray player.

Petvas, have you been able to watch Blu Ray titles on your PS3 with a region code different than the one for Europe? I can only watch titles bought in the US. Is there any way to make the PS3 be region free?

 

[petvas]

Petvas, have you been able to watch Blu Ray titles on your PS3 with a region code different than the one for Europe? I can only watch titles bought in the US. Is there any way to make the PS3 be region free?

I haven't found a way yet to do this...

 

[northy124]

Petvas, have you been able to watch Blu Ray titles on your PS3 with a region code different than the one for Europe? I can only watch titles bought in the US. Is there any way to make the PS3 be region free?

Just Buy Region Free Blu-Rays Only Fox I Think Is Region Coding Them

 

[Masquerade]

the difference between tv and ps3 is that sony "can kill apple tv with a software update, by bringing rental movies, games & music, adding a decent explorer for media in ps3"

 

[err404]

the difference between tv and ps3 is that sony "can kill apple tv with a software update, by bringing rental movies, games & music, adding a decent explorer for media in ps3"

I'll go home tonight and watch a rental while you keep waiting. You can't base your purchases on that kind of speculation. The fact is PS3 does not do this now and when/if they will this is anybody's guess.
As Apple has shown with their own problems obtaining content, the software is only the tip of the iceberg. The harder part is working through the licensing. While Sony has a lot of leverage (probably more then Apple), they have a year+ or red-tape ahead of such an update.
Besides, if the offer movie rentals, they would still have internet bandwidth as the bottleneck. The quality wont be any better on the content Apple offers today.

BTW - Competition is good, and I really do hope Sony does this in the future.

 

[Masquerade]

I'll go home tonight and watch a rental while you keep waiting. You can't base your purchases on that kind of speculation. The fact is PS3 does not do this now and when/if they will this is anybody's guess.
As Apple has shown with their own problems obtaining content, the software is only the tip of the iceberg. The harder part is working through the licensing. While Sony has a lot of leverage (probably more then Apple), they have a year+ or red-tape ahead of such an update.
Besides, if the offer movie rentals, they would still have internet bandwidth as the bottleneck. The quality wont be any better on the content Apple offers today.

BTW - Competition is good, and I really do hope Sony does this in the future.

if nt wrong, there's already a store in Ps3 ui that you can buy music or games. sony can handle the movie ship too, they have a studio, and the rest of the studios will like sony if the ps3 is their veicle to put their blueray films onto your tv by disk or through the network.

Also, apple never mentioned that movie rentals will come in the future at the atv introduction; the update has come in a couple of months. sony can do the same thing, is feasible.

 

[Masquerade]

I'll go home tonight and watch a rental while you keep waiting. You can't base your purchases on that kind of speculation. The fact is PS3 does not do this now and when/if they will this is anybody's guess.
As Apple has shown with their own problems obtaining content, the software is only the tip of the iceberg. The harder part is working through the licensing. While Sony has a lot of leverage (probably more then Apple), they have a year+ or red-tape ahead of such an update.
Besides, if the offer movie rentals, they would still have internet bandwidth as the bottleneck. The quality wont be any better on the content Apple offers today.

BTW - Competition is good, and I really do hope Sony does this in the future.

if nt wrong, there's already a store in Ps3 ui that you can buy music or games. sony can handle the movie ship too, they have a studio, and the rest of the studios will like sony if the ps3 is their veicle to put their blueray films onto your tv by disk or through the network.

Also, apple never mentioned that movie rentals will come in the future at the atv introduction; the update has come in a couple of months. sony can do the same thing, is feasible.

 

[petvas]

I didn't start this thread to compare Apple TV's rentals with the Playstation 3, but to mention the fact that the Playstation can function as a Media Center, totally replacing an Apple TV.