graphic designers -> web designers

[dpaanlka]

I guess I'm a "designer" then because all of my ideas start out as Photoshop projects and then usually stop there, or trickle down into Dreamweaver. I rarely hand code anything unless I want to do something Dreamweaver can't, because I'm not very literate in it.

In fact a lot of designs in my portfolio aren't even web sites, they're just images of what I would want a web site to look like.

Either way, I imagine people would prefer Dreamweaver-made web sites to a majority of the crap that flies out of Bradley's classrooms.

 

[shecky]

Now what happens is you get people buying a Mac Mini and a copy of Photoshop Elements and thinking that their a Graphic Designer which put the squeeze on Professional Graphic Designers who then dabble in GoLive and state that they do Web Design for extra income.

real, professional, educated designers who do real, serious paid work for real clients are not in any way shape or form being put the squeeze on by some kid with a copy of elements. no way, no how. it is quite simply not competition. i have never, ever, ever lost a project to somebody's cousin who "kinda knows photoshop." never happened.

Clients often do not have a handle on how to tell their story and they always ALWAYS want three times as much information on each page as is practical.

And this is the hardest thing to work with: clients who don't even understand the basics of technology.

part of the designer's responsibility it to be able to guide their clients thru the technology, thru the practical and the impractical, thru something they do not know; in this case, design (web or print.) a designer is not only just supposed to take what the client wants and figure out a way to produce it on time and in budget, a real designer understands that design can help to drive the client's business, increase sales, help with name recognition, and a hundred other things. a designer is in dialog with a client, not just a "yes" or a "no" - a designer should be having a lengthy conversation over the course of the project with the client and ultimately the client's customers about what design can do for them.

 

[benneh]

A new concern (ohno!)

Hi guys, sorry for bringing up a week old thread (I had no internet!), but I hate to start a new thread to reply something simliar.

You all made valid points, and its refreshing to see I'm not the only one thinking 'stuck-up' graphic designers turn web designers are stealing our jobs.

But throughout the week, it got me thinking:
Is it easier to transition from graphic designer into web designer/developers?

To word it a little better..: Well, I've always wanted to do visual, I can appreciate and understand good visual design, good colours and layout. But when it came for me to make something out on a blank Photoshop canvas, I get stuck.

I'm okay in developing, I loathe programming classes in uni, I just did it to pass. I suck at it, but I can think logically to make an online shopping process in PHP or something that requires a database storage. I'm not a full developer as I only know the basic of some languages, and I didn't come with a Computer Science degree, rather a design one at that.

I conceded that I have no 'Talent' in visual design, so I code. But what about talented designers who can just whip up awesome looking stuff in a few minutes. Is it easier for them if they wish to do their own coding? After all, programming is all about logic. Either its right and works, or its wrong and crashes. Just keep reading/practicing and eventually you'll get it right (just like Maths)
Visual design on the other hand is open ended, there isn't a right/wrong answer (just like Art class).

What are your thoughts? Are talented designers lucky (or blessed) in this regard? Is talent somehting you're born with? Can you master design through books and hardwork?

 

[RojoLeo]

I won't address all of your points, but I'd like to say be careful of skimming over the term "web designer."

A lot of what you just described is a web developer, not a web designer. And although there is some overlap, generally a designer does not have to deal with the "programming."

Another point, unlike most programming languages, web languages are not black and white. What may work well on one browser may not work well on another. The web languages, specifically HTML, are constantly evolving and don't fall into tight matrices as other languages tend to.

 

[SC68Cal]

I'm a web application developer. You are all worthless without my code.

PHP and MySQL = Godlike.

I barely even use Dreamweaver for anything more than a glorified textedit, and I leave it in pure code view.

Basically I make great code, and let people who know what they are doing with CSS make it "pretty"

PHP and MySQL by themselves = application
CSS + PHP + MySQL = nice looking application
CSS + HTML = no application

 

[tominated]

Most of my designs start in photoshop, then I just use the graphics that I cant produce in xhtml/css. The website that I am currently making looks like it was made entirely in PS, but I hand coded it.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Don't be unreasonable, he was actually making a very good point.

I wasn't disputing your point, sorry if it wasn't too subtle. But in my experiences most clients I have dealt with are under the impression that they surf the net therefore they have a good insight into web design and development. To be a good designer or professional in any industry you do need a good practical and theoretical knowledge and to apply it successfully.

 

[madina]

Greeetings

Im Adding to this Rant.

I personally use Illustrator for cenceptual design its much quicker than photoshop. I then use Photoshop to Slice and Dice (Do the Math etc) never got round to Fireworks.

Then Dreamweaver where I create the tables and assemble the layout (Maths again)

I use an external javascript file usually utils.js and then a .css file thats about as complex as it gets for me.

I must admit I am not a programmer but so often I find myself trying to program. You have to draw a line somewhere. At least until we can use that other 90% of our brain capacity.

Just for the record
• Websites created by programmers are usually very functional.
• Websites created by designers are usually very interesting to look at.

Such is life.

We strive as designers and programmers to reach a happy medium.

And then guess who enters the room waving a big hand grenade?

THE CLIENT!!!

I feel so much better now after letting off a bit of steam.

Anyways all the best madina (Dreaming of Animating again) http://www.madina.co.uk/

 

[jng]

A lot of what you just described is a web developer, not a web designer. And although there is some overlap, generally a designer does not have to deal with the "programming."

Re: term "Architect"

And that's semantics. The person in that role could also be called a software engineer. Software designer/architect/engineer, all pretty close or even the same, depending on who you talk to.

I don't work in the private sector. I work mostly in education with sites that are content heavy and therefore I use the title "Web Content Engineer." People can call it semantics if they want, but there is an important difference.

My job requires that I work closely with educators and also have a strong background in the content (I have never formally studied CS). I work with academics in terms of organizing information into proper sections for websites. Then, the pages are designed and executed by team, which I usually lead.

I also use the word Engineer because often I am presented with a challenge that goes: "OK I want to be able to do this and this with my classroom by MYSELF." So in addition to organizing content on a site, I have to find ways to let the teacher and students interact with it - in an engaging and efficient manner. I install and modify already available software more than I code, but sometimes I have to code because what's out there simply - sucks. One of my larger projects for the summer is to restylize vBulletin. We bought it 5 years ago and the kids loved it but now in version 3, it's too cluttered and the admin interface is atrocious.

So in conclusion, not everything can be boiled down to web developer or web deigner. I prefer using terms like engineer or architect to more accurately describe what I do. Besides job listings also use those words.

And as people talk about medium, realize there's a 3rd factor. You have to balance (1) specialized knowledge - like history in my example or it could be simple business: sales or marketing, (2) design, and (3) development.

That first factor makes you all the more valuable and is a newer development (I find) because companies want to get the max out of their employees. And to distinguish people who can do all 3 as compared to just 2 and 3, we need terms like architects and engineers.

 

[RojoLeo]

Re: term "Architect"

Software designers, architects, engineers ARE developers. The term developer is broad and can be broken down into the categories.

 

[RojoLeo]

I wasn't disputing your point, sorry if it wasn't too subtle. But in my experiences most clients I have dealt with are under the impression that they surf the net therefore they have a good insight into web design and development. To be a good designer or professional in any industry you do need a good practical and theoretical knowledge and to apply it successfully.

We completely agree on this. I think your analogy caused some confusion.

 

[SC68Cal]

Re: term "Architect"
My job requires that I work closely with educators and also have a strong background in the content (I have never formally studied CS). I work with academics in terms of organizing information into proper sections for websites. Then, the pages are designed and executed by team, which I usually lead.

That's my boss's job, and she's the CIO. Time to ask for a promotion my friend

I really like my boss a lot. I get to fly off the handle and rant and rave about security, go completely nuts with coding, and know that she'll be there to reign me back in to the land of sanity when it gets out of control.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

We completely agree on this. I think your analogy caused some confusion.

In my experience in graphics and digital media it just feels as though any company who uploads a site has some unrealistic ideas when they hear about what the web can do for them. Likewise anyone who has ever uploaded or created a home page is under the impression they are "web experts", the web designer/developer/etc is reserved for someone who has practical skills anlong with formally qualified training. It's as Tyler Durden says "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken".

 

[RojoLeo]

In my experience in graphics and digital media it just feels as though any company who uploads a site has some unrealistic ideas when they hear about what the web can do for them. Likewise anyone who has ever uploaded or created a home page is under the impression they are "web experts", the web designer/developer/etc is reserved for someone who has practical skills anlong with formally qualified training. It's as Tyler Durden says "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken".

I completely agree, except on the formal training. This isn't necessary for title in any industry but medical, law, and education.

Nice Fight Club quote.

 

[chaosbunny]

As a graphic designer I want to add that the "rant" goes vice/versa. A graphic designer with a copy of dreamweaver who thinks he is a programmer is as bad as a programmer with a copy of photoshop who thinks he is a designer. And both do exist.

Personally I know not too much about css/html, and when I'm asked to do a website I call a programmer I often work with, and who has become a friend over the years. Then I design the site after talking with him about what's important and what we want to create and he puts everything together afterwards. And if he is asked for a design then he calls me. We know now pretty good what the other one needs and where his skills are.

Works great so far.

As for loosing jobs to "the nephew": Honestly, no professional should get bothered with that. This kind of clients don't have the money to pay for professional work anyway. You can easily apply the old car analogy. Someone at the mercedes shop who asks why this car is so expensive he can get an used toyota for much less is shown the door. I sometimes use this when negotiating with clients. In the end the folder/homepage/whatever is what represents their company, now do you want to represent your company with a mercedes or a used toyota?

Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.

 

[barrysfarm]

I think there is room for overlap. While I agree that most people are either one or the other, there are some who overlap.

Background - I've got a BA in design, but the whole time i was working towards getting it I was exploring web technologies. I was trained in print, but am capable of web stuff. Myself and a coworker are our web staff, both designers and programmers. We both are capable of making something beautiful and we're both capable of programming a cms. We specialize in RoR, but can program in PHP if the client needs that. We both have about 5 years experience in both fields.

I'm having an internal struggle though. Some days I feel like I'm a crappy developer, and other days I feel like I'm a crappy designer. Maybe I'm both, I don't know. It's hard to tell. Whenever someone asks me what i do for a living, i give them the goose-iest answer: "yeah i don't quite know anymore."

Sorry, I feel incredibly cocky writing about myself like this.

 

[rogersmj]

... We both are capable of making something beautiful and we're both capable of programming a cms. We specialize in RoR, but can program in PHP if the client needs that. We both have about 5 years experience in both fields. ... Sorry, I feel incredibly cocky writing about myself like this.

It's OK, that's exactly how I am too. I know how you feel My team is comprised of people with extensive experience in both fields as well. I think what this thread is talking about are mostly the people who are artists or print designers suddenly finding the "export" function in their layout software and thinking they can make web sites. Those of us who took care to grow our interface/graphic design skills at the same time as our coding/development skills usually make out all right.

 

[snickelfritz]

As a designer, I often wonder if hand-coding a website is a little like hand-coding a QuarkXpress document.
With tools like Flash, GoLive and Dreamweaver available, building a functioning website is not rocket science.

I agree that pruning and optimizing the code will create sites that function better in some way, but if the site works properly and loads quickly, exactly what is the point of hand-coding? (beyond creating advanced functionality, which is often the purview of the programmer)

 

[jng]

That's my boss's job, and she's the CIO. Time to ask for a promotion my friend

I'm happy where I am. I'm 22 and a student first and foremost. If I were promoted I wouldn't have the independence that I currently have.

 

[murfle]

As a designer, I often wonder if hand-coding a website is a little like hand-coding a QuarkXpress document.
With tools like Flash, GoLive and Dreamweaver available, building a functioning website is not rocket science.

I agree that pruning and optimizing the code will create sites that function better in some way, but if the site works properly and loads quickly, exactly what is the point of hand-coding? (beyond creating advanced functionality, which is often the purview of the programmer)

For small, completely static sites, no point... For large sites, with dynamic content and some sort of content management system in the back end, the point is to be able to make the content display...

Seriously, I've had requirements to program a site to display 3 columns, with a variable number of components per column. I was provided with the HTML for a sample page, where I had to chop it up, and make each component reusable for anywhere else on a column of the same width. Some designer placed the site's logo on the header bar, but dropped down into the first column. The first site I did that had done this, and refused to change it, ended up blowing out the logic to display everything. We either had to create a specific 'start table' and 'end table' code peice to compensate, on every page template we coded, or split table starts and ends across files. Either way is not a easily maintainable, or efficient way of doing things. The second client who did this was kind enough to realize the problems it causes in a dynamic site and moved the logo up.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

I completely agree, except on the formal training. This isn't necessary for title in any industry but medical, law, and education.

Nice Fight Club quote.

Personally I think you need to have some sort of formal training (I'm not talking about Degrees, Master, PHD, etc) to be truely considered a professional.

I have dealt with many IT and design professionals over the last few years and my my experience the best people from a skills point of view were the ones that had the practical skill from working within the industry and also were formally trainned in their area of expertise. These people had the knowledge of the philosophies behind what they were doing along with the industry experience, and it make a big difference compared with the people who haven't completed any qualifactions.

 

[SC68Cal]

As a designer, I often wonder if hand-coding a website is a little like hand-coding a QuarkXpress document.
With tools like Flash, GoLive and Dreamweaver available, building a functioning website is not rocket science.

I use DreamWeaver as a glorified text editor. I hand code most of my HTML, because DreamWaver's automated code is a bit verbose, and I don't think it's very tidy.

 

[RojoLeo]

Personally I think you need to have some sort of formal training (I'm not talking about Degrees, Master, PHD, etc) to be truely considered a professional.

I have dealt with many IT and design professionals over the last few years and my my experience the best people from a skills point of view were the ones that had the practical skill from working within the industry and also were formally trainned in their area of expertise. These people had the knowledge of the philosophies behind what they were doing along with the industry experience, and it make a big difference compared with the people who haven't completed any qualifactions.

While not questioning the validity of formal training or its value, I don't believe that being a design professional is dependent on formal training. For that matter, I don't believe that being a "professional" in most industries is dependent on formal training, although it certainly helps.

Some of the greatest business leaders of today have no formal education.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Some of the greatest business leaders of today have no formal education.

I not questioning competency of any leader however that is a subjective argument.

This is a list of the current 10 richest people:
Bill Gates
Warren Buffett
Carlos Slim Helú
Ingvar Feodor Kamprad
Lakshmi Nivas Mittal
Sheldon Gary Adelson
Bernard Arnault
Amancio Ortega
Li Ka Shing
David Thomson

8 out of 10 of these people were formally trained at university and/or colleges.

 

[RojoLeo]

Please be clear that the only point I'm making is that the term "design professional" is not EXCLUSIVE to those with formal training. Undoubtedly it helps and is very valuable, but it is not a determining factor in being a professional.

Skill and competency are the only factors, formal training can provide both of these things.