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Gruber: Why Windows 8 Is Fundamentally Flawed as a Response to the iPad*

Rodimus Prime said:
do not expect him to nor to the question I made either. LTD is caught in his own word twisting trying to make it go both ways.
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Fanboys fighting is always amusing. However, I suppose i'll temporarily step into the maelstrom for a moment.

PC's are different things. Therefore, backwards compatibility between Windows versions and Mac OS 9 to X is necessary. But, if I understand LTD correctly, the success of the iPad / iPhone has been because they don't try to be PCs. i.e. Stevey J's "Post-PC" moniker. Windows 8 tablets, obviously, are just trying to be touch based Windows PCs.

So far, PC based touch devices from all over the industry have been terribly uninteresting to consumers. With each and everyone of them supposedly being that "iPad" killer. Why this hasn't come to past is certainly debatable. Windows 8 tablets aren't going to be anything different, though.

Therefore, as LTD suggests, maybe it's time to stop trying to make touch based PCs and drop backwards compatibility. Seems to be working for Apple so far....

*LTD* said:
What Microsoft revealed this week is that they do not believe there is a post-PC era. They're banking that the PC era will never end. ★
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Color me unimpressed that Microsoft doesn't want to PC usage to diminish. Their business revolves around marketing Windows and Office. If PCs aren't important neither is Microsoft.
 
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I agreed with that article until he started claiming iWorks on iOS was the way to go

I don't know what's better, Office retrofitted with a touchscreen shell, or iWorks, which has 1% of the functionality of MS Office and is to Office what Kidpix is to Photoshop.

Personally I think almost every piece of iOS flagship software that Apple hypes up to sell phones and tablets is mediocre, from that $10 version of Wordpad they call Pages to iMovie, with all of its 5 features. No wonder they never bother to update.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Liquorpuki said:
I agreed with that article until he started claiming iWorks on iOS was the way to go

I don't know what's better, Office retrofitted with a touchscreen shell, or iWorks, which has 1% of the functionality of MS Office and is to Office what Kidpix is to Photoshop.

Personally I think almost every piece of iOS flagship software that Apple hypes up to sell phones and tablets is mediocre, from that $10 version of Wordpad they call Pages to iMovie, with all of its 5 features. No wonder they never bother to update.
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They are designed for the device they are meant to run on. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple's not about trying to have it both ways and succeeding at neither. The result of Apple's strategy needs no explanation. It's obvious.

Retrofitting touch capability onto desktop apps is suicidal, not to mention how hard it has failed, and will continue to. Build it all from the ground up is the way to go. No question.

Building a smaller, touch-based PC vs. Building a more powerful tablet. My money's on the latter. The latter will evolve as a new paradigm that is a break with the past, while the former is just plain clumsy and is tied to ideas that are the equivalent of legacy-ware.
 
*LTD* said:
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)



They are designed for the device they are meant to run on. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple's not about trying to have it both ways and succeeding at neither. The result of Apple's strategy needs no explanation. It's obvious.

Retrofitting touch capability onto desktop apps is suicidal, not to mention how hard it has failed, and will continue to. Build it all from the ground up is the way to go. No question.

Building a smaller, touch-based PC vs. Building a more powerful tablet. My money's on the latter. The latter will evolve as a new paradigm that is a break with the past, while the former is just plain clumsy and is tied to ideas that are the equivalent of legacy-ware.
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I think you are missing the point, again. The point of the video was that it can run any Windows applications if you want it to. They just showed Excel as an example.
 
*LTD* said:
This time the credit goes to Gruber, posted at the bottom of that article:

What Microsoft revealed this week is that they do not believe there is a post-PC era. They're banking that the PC era will never end.
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Gruber (and others) obviously aren't paying attention to what Jobs meant by "post PC". Jobs compared PCs to farm and delivery trucks. He never said that trucks were going away. Not at all. He was claming that nowadays most people just need cars.

The trouble with his simile is multifold: First off, a truck is always the best selling vehicle in America. So if PCs are trucks, Microsoft's belief is correct... according to Jobs.

For that matter, Apple is helping them out by rather ironically requiring iTunes on a PC. Hopefully they'll change that with their new server center.

Secondly, many people still buy truck-like vehicles because they're so much more useful and powerful than the little two seater cars. That's what Microsoft wants to build: a crossover, combo truck and car.
 
*LTD* said:
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)



They are designed for the device they are meant to run on. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple's not about trying to have it both ways and succeeding at neither. The result of Apple's strategy needs no explanation. It's obvious.
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Yeah but just because it's better integrated doesn't mean it's a better product. When it comes to iWorks on iOS, Apple is aiming for users who want to use the iPad for document creation, professional or otherwise. But they end up putting out a product that while well-integrated, is a poor replacement for Office.

And the thing is, with its in-house iOS apps, Apple is not even trying. They sell a bunch of units because they hyped up iWorks as a killer app for the iPad, just like they hyped up iMovie to sell the iPhone 4 and Garageband to sell the iPad 2, but all of these are underpowered apps that don't get updated as much as they should and are disappointing once you get past the polish because of their limited features.

Retrofitting touch capability onto desktop apps is suicidal, not to mention how hard it has failed, and will continue to. Build it all from the ground up is the way to go. No question.
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It's not suicidal, it's been done before. If you look at all the games on apps market, 99% of the retro games are just a UI retrofit that resembles a game controller. It is sloppy design though. But if I'm faced with the choice of something that's sloppily designed but does what I need vs a tightly integrated app that's polished but can barely do what I want, it might be worth the headache to go with the sloppy design.
 
Liquorpuki said:
It's not suicidal, it's been done before. If you look at all the games on apps market, 99% of the retro games are just a UI retrofit that resembles a game controller. It is sloppy design though. But if I'm faced with the choice of something that's sloppily designed but does what I need vs a tightly integrated app that's polished but can barely do what I want, it might be worth the headache to go with the sloppy design.
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Better no implementation at all than a shoddy one. This is how Apple thinks, anyway. I happen to agree with it.

As for you, you've got quite a decision to make. ;)
 
31 Flavas said:
Color me unimpressed that Microsoft doesn't want to PC usage to diminish. Their business revolves around marketing Windows and Office. If PCs aren't important neither is Microsoft.
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That's quite interesting because a lot of businesses revolve around Windows and Office. I'd say pretty much most of them do in some aspect. PC's are important and will continue to be for a long time.
 
roadbloc said:
That's quite interesting because a lot of businesses revolve around Windows and Office. I'd say pretty much most of them do in some aspect. PC's are important and will continue to be for a long time.
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Then Microsoft doesn't have anything to worry about. However, clearly they're very worried.
 
roadbloc said:
That's quite interesting because a lot of businesses revolve around Windows and Office. I'd say pretty much most of them do in some aspect. PC's are important and will continue to be for a long time.
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Ya well they need to pick one. Consumer or Enterprise. It's clear they're unable to do both effectively. Quite frankly, MS has always seemed like a corporate/enterprise software vendor masquerading as a home/consumer vendor. They should cut the BS and start reorganizing the entire operation around a FOCUS before it's too late. Start by swapping out upper management. Show Ballmer the door already! What a way to waste great talent. Lions led by donkeys.
 
31 Flavas said:
Then Microsoft doesn't have anything to worry about. However, clearly they're very worried.
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The PC market will most defiantly shrink. Microsoft is simply making sure they have a place in the Tablet market in the future, without hindering their previous or future PC successes and merging the two products together rather neatly. I wouldn't really call this worried for the future, however, you cannot deny it is certainly on their mind.
 
Microsoft is NOT hedging that there will NOT be a post-PC world

They are hedging that the PC world and tablet market lines will blur. Thats why their idea is great IMO. They have done what others couldn't and fused the desktop with a tablet and as you can see it runs great.

The way the demo showed how apps could integrate with eachother as well as a native file explorer was incredible. People think Microsoft is some crappy company, but really they are the best software company in the world.
 
TheSideshow said:
Microsoft is NOT hedging that there will NOT be a post-PC world

They are hedging that the PC world and tablet market lines will blur. Thats why their idea is great IMO. They have done what others couldn't and fused the desktop with a tablet and as you can see it runs great.
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They've done what others have tried to do and failed, and what they themselves have tried to do and failed, and what others like Apple have rightly avoided.

As to the "runs great" part, I'm tempted to LOL but we'll have to see. Just don't get your hopes up. But we've already seen this movie and know how it will end.

One thing worth noting: Why expect things to turn out differently when you've still got *the same people* at MS? When nothing has really changed? Doing the same thing each time but expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity. What, you think Ballmer and crew magically woke up after a decade of everything from mediocrity, to false starts, to absolute failure?

Meanwhile the iPad situation is fast becoming an iPod situation. We have yet to see a non-Apple solution that actually works.
 
*LTD* said:
They've done what others have tried to do and failed, and what they themselves have tried to do and failed, and what others like Apple have rightly avoided.

As to the "runs great" part, I'm tempted to LOL but we'll have to see. Just don't get your hopes up. But we've already seen this movie and know how it will end.

One thing worth noting: Why expect things to turn out differently when you've still got *the same people* at MS? When nothing has really changed? Doing the same thing each time but expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity. What, you think Ballmer and crew magically woke up after a decade of everything from mediocrity, to false starts, to absolute failure?

Meanwhile the iPad situation is fast becoming an iPod situation. We have yet to see a non-Apple solution that actually works.
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Microsoft hasnt been the same since 2007
 
Flawed approach, definitely, and on multiple levels.
First off, thinking that "it runs full excel" is a selling point for a mobile device (tablet) is laughable of cluelessness.
Secondly, they're basing it on the Windows Phone 7 UI, it's quite an unsafe bet, considering how WP7 is struggling to get traction.
And then, if I understand well, the finished product won't be out before perhaps a couple years... WTF, Microsoft...
 
To me, OSX Lion looked like Apple was doing the same thing as Microsoft: tacking touch phone UI stuff over their core desktop OS.

I do like Window 8's Metro-derived live tiles more than Lion's iOS-like static icon launcher grid. Win8 looks modern, while Lion still hangs in the mid 1980s.
 

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kdarling said:
To me, OSX Lion looked like Apple was doing the same thing as Microsoft: tacking touch phone UI stuff over their core desktop OS.

I do like Window 8's Metro-derived live tiles more than Lion's iOS-like static icon launcher grid. Win8 looks modern, while Lion still hangs in the mid 1980s.
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You're showing two different things there.
 
kdarling said:
To me, OSX Lion looked like Apple was doing the same thing as Microsoft: tacking touch phone UI stuff over their core desktop OS.

I do like Window 8's Metro-derived live tiles more than Lion's iOS-like static icon launcher grid. Win8 looks modern, while Lion still hangs in the mid 1980s.
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Yes Windows 8 looks like a true next generation UI while Apple remains stuck in the past. Remember, Grandma prefers OS X.
 
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