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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,009
8,443
Not defensible to whom? Consumers, enterprise?
Anybody who isn't irrevocably committed to buying a Mac and/or accepts that 80% of computer users somehow manage to get by without MacOS, and who doesn't believe that Apple's LPDDR5 RAM contains magic unicorn dust that makes each byte twice as big as on PC LPDDR5 RAM. Anybody who is aware that much of the software they are running is largely the same code as the PC versions and will have similar RAM demands.

Anybody who compares prices and sees that MacBook Air-comparable low-$1000s PCs are now coming with 16GB standard and/or BTO upgrades at half of Apples prices, or that MacBook Pro-comparable $1500-$2000+ PCs are typically coming with 32GB.

Anybody who does the math and sees that bringing the RAM and storage up to PC levels typically adds $400-$600 to the price of a Mac.

It was stated in the past when the MBP 13” touchbar was still around that was also ‘not defensible’ but it lasted as long as it did apparently for corporate buyers.
But it has gone now - Apple's line-up has changed with the entry-level Pro now having the same body and screen as the full Pro (plus MagSafe and HDMI), and a bit of a corresponding price bump. Sounds like the M4 version will be getting the same port & external display specs as the current M3 Pro, too. I guess these hypothetical corporate customers were finally convinced to switch to Air or swallowed the (fairly small) price bump to get the 14" with better screen and connectivity.

This issue with the RAM is not new - 8GB has been the base MBP spec and $200-per-8GB the upgrade cost for at least 10 years - in which time we've gone from 2 to 8 cores, 3x faster single core, 7x faster multicore... I don't know what possible confusion of ideas makes people think this won't increase demand for RAM. The final straw is MS making 16GB the minimum for some features in their software. Many Mac users use MS Office, many developers using MBPs for, say, web development, use VS Code. That 16GB minimum is going to start cropping up in corporate tenders and consumers' tick-lists - even if it doesn't technically apply to Macs.

I believe also that a lot of users simply to ‘max’ out the machines they buy.
16, 24 or 32GB RAM is hardly "maxing out" in 2024, especially on a machine where the RAM can't be expanded after purchase. It's really only Apple that makes > 8GB RAM an expensive luxury rather than a false economy.

Do you mean TCO (total cost of ownership) or just purchasing price?
I've never met a corporate bean-counter who took notice of TCO. Purchase price is capital expenditure, TCO is "cost of doing business" - different account, different box on the tax form, somebody else's problem. Leasing/preferred supplier contracts will be designed to offer a great deal on a "standard basket" of specs and charge a fortune for any exceptions. Even for a private buyer... $400 extra cashy money today vs. some hypothetical "all being well" saving over 5 years...? Yeah.

I’m not trying to ‘dismiss’ this, but I would like to know, if possible at all, what are the competing products of a MBP.
Well, no reviewer talks about Snapdragon X without mentioning Apple Silicon - and, presumably, reviewers influence buyers. Qualcomm would like you to think that the Snapdragin X elite - their better model - is a competitor to M3 Pro, but regular M3 is probably a better comparison. Main thing stopping Windows users switching is patchy support for "legacy" Windows software and games - anything properly supported seems to perform pretty well, Maybe not such a deal breaker for switching Mac users who can pick modern software. I think the Snapdragon-X ThinkBook models I highlighted - or the MS Surface Laptops - are good comparisons.

Otherwise... it doesn't have to be Snapdragon X - Intel's offerings are currently a bit rubbish, but AMD have some nice laptop chips. Most major PC manufacturer offer a bunch of cheap $300-$900 machines (so you can always find something with 4GB RAM and whatever the current Celeron equivalent is) but also have a "premium" models of small, light, low-power laptops that are very clearly inspired by MBP and MBA and targeted at potential Mac customers, in a similar price range.

Don't get me wrong - I prefer MacOS over Windows given the choice, but there are limits if we're talking about a $400 premium to get decent RAM and storage on a Mac.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
12MB (2x6MB), similar to the iPad Pro M4. (For some reason, it only states 8MB under iPadOS. Does anyone know why?)

Because it’s 8GB. That’s how Apple sells it and that’s what you get. It does not matter how much RAM is physically there. Assuming the claims of 12GB are even correct.
 
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crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,219
LPDDR5 was already available - for a few years if I recall, when M1 Pro has been introduced. LPDDR6 will likely take years until it is being produced in volumes high enough.

Then again, it’s Apple. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come out with their own RAM standard :)
Even though the M4 iPad is LPDDR5X (est. at 7500 MHz), what do you think the chances are they'll use LPDDR6 for the M4 Pro/Max?

The M1 was initially released on the Mini with LPDDR4X, but the M1 Pro/Max/Ultra featured LPDDR5. So there is precedence for Apple using a later gen of RAM on higher-tier but same-gen chips

Going back to that original thread which was surmising that Apple would go LPDDR6 for M4, one of the pieces of evidence for why that poster thought so was that Samsung was rumored to be launching their Gen 4 chips with LPDDR6, but it seems that's not true: they're launching with LPDDR5X instead.
 
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hovscorpion12

macrumors 68040
Sep 12, 2011
3,043
3,120
USA
M4 = 16 GB, 24 GB RAM
M4 Pro = 36 GB, 48 GB RAM
M4 Max = 64 GB, 96 GB, 128 GB, 192 GB RAM

M4 = 10-core CPU / 10-core GPU
M4 pro = 14-core CPU / 32-core GPU
M4 Max = 24-core CPU / 50-core GPU
 

Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
5,178
1,544
Denmark
M4 = 10-core CPU / 10-core GPU
M4 pro = 14-core CPU / 32-core GPU
M4 Max = 24-core CPU / 50-core GPU
The M4 Pro is not going to get a 32-core GPU. Temper your expectations on that.

I would expect a 20-core GPU, at most, for the M4 Pro if not the same count as the M3 Pro.

It's the same node size as the M3 series (N3B for M3 -> N3E for M4), so nothing is being shrunk.
 

komuh

macrumors regular
May 13, 2023
126
113
So M4 pro have up to 20 cores GPU it seems very ... disappointing, especially as Ultra would probably be less than 2x Max in terms of performance seems i'll be stuck on my M1 Ultra for a bit longer.
 

MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,177
7,194
M4 ultra will be a lot faster in every way because is not just about nr of cores but the core itself and all the hardware tools
 

komuh

macrumors regular
May 13, 2023
126
113
M4 ultra will be a lot faster in every way because is not just about nr of cores but the core itself and all the hardware tools
Of course, it will, but not as much as I had hoped. Perhaps we’ll get a positive upset, and they’ll pack a powerful GPU in their “PC” offering but I’ll probably just buy the RTX 5090 looking at current GPU price to performance ratio on Mac's.
 

MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,177
7,194
So we have official the M4 Pro
 

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MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,177
7,194
M4 Pro base config $1399

12-Core CPU​

16-Core GPU​

24GB Unified Memory​

512GB SSD Storage​

 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
Nailed it.

That was assuming the same 192-bit memory bus. But there is something very odd about the M4 Pro RAM bandwidth. The M4 is quoted at 120GB/s, that’s the usual LPDDR5X. But M4 Pro is whopping 273GB/s, more than double! I have difficulty understanding which memory technology is that. If the RAM standard is the same, this could indicate a 320-bit interface with ECC. But 320-bits don’t really fit with 24GB RAM. If it’s still a 192- or 256-bit interface, then it must be some new RAM tech. This is too fast even for LPDDR6.

Edit: I’ve been since informed that this is most likely LPDDRX-8533 running on 256-bit bus.
 
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senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
That was assuming the same 192-bit memory bus. But there is something very odd about the M4 Pro RAM bandwidth. The M4 is quoted at 120GB/s, that’s the usual LPDDR5X. But M4 Pro is whopping 273GB/s, more than double! I have difficulty understanding which memory technology is that. If the RAM standard is the same, this could indicate a 320-bit interface with ECC. But 320-bits don’t really fit with 24GB RAM. If it’s still a 192- or 256-bit interface, then it must be some new RAM tech. This is too fast even for LPDDR6.

Edit: I’ve been since informed that this is most likely LPDDRX-8533 running on 256-bit bus.
Great to see Apple pushing bandwidth again.
 

Chuckeee

macrumors 68040
Aug 18, 2023
3,060
8,721
Southern California
That was assuming the same 192-bit memory bus. But there is something very odd about the M4 Pro RAM bandwidth. The M4 is quoted at 120GB/s, that’s the usual LPDDR5X. But M4 Pro is whopping 273GB/s, more than double! I have difficulty understanding which memory technology is that. If the RAM standard is the same, this could indicate a 320-bit interface with ECC. But 320-bits don’t really fit with 24GB RAM. If it’s still a 192- or 256-bit interface, then it must be some new RAM tech. This is too fast even for LPDDR6.

Edit: I’ve been since informed that this is most likely LPDDRX-8533 running on 256-bit bus.
I still don't get the math that comes up with 273. Can anyone help explain it to me?
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
I still don't get the math that comes up with 273. Can anyone help explain it to me?
I believe it's:

Bandwidth = Bus Width (bits) x Memory Clock (1/s) x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes)

Where Bus Width = Width/Memory Module x #Memory Modules.

For the M4 Pro:
64 bits/module x 4 modules x (8533 x 10^6)/s x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes) = 273.056 GB/s

Note how the units all cancel to give GB/s!

1730259620127.png
 
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DaniTheFox

macrumors regular
Nov 24, 2023
198
145
Switzerland
For the M4 Pro:
64 bits/module x 4 modules x (8533 x 10^6)/s x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes) = 273.056 GB/s
Wow, someone understanding mathematics. However, I am curious to know the reason behind 8533 memory. This is a factor of 1.1377 to 7500 memory. And 1.1377 doesn‘t rings a bell in me.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
Wow, someone understanding mathematics. However, I am curious to know the reason behind 8533 memory. This is a factor of 1.1377 to 7500 memory. And 1.1377 doesn‘t rings a bell in me.

That’s just higher clock.
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
Wow, someone understanding mathematics. However, I am curious to know the reason behind 8533 memory. This is a factor of 1.1377 to 7500 memory. And 1.1377 doesn‘t rings a bell in me.
Consider these integer multiples of 33.333 (repeating):

256 * 33.333... = 8533.333...
225 * 33.333... = 7500.0
192 * 33.333... = 6400.0
128 * 33.333... = 4266.666...

Clock generators which are economical to use in personal computers don't directly generate GHz frequencies. Instead, the clock is usually under 50 MHz. 24 and 33.333 (repeating) are both fairly common. This 'reference' frequency is fed into complex chips like the M-series SoC, inside of which there are one or more PLL (or similar) circuits. A PLL can synthesize faster clocks from the reference clock. A simple PLL might support integer multiples of the input clock frequency, a more complex 'fractional' PLL can do fractional multiples (0.5x or 0.25x or 0.125x steps, etc).

That's the relationship between numbers like 8533, 7500, and 6400.
 

DaniTheFox

macrumors regular
Nov 24, 2023
198
145
Switzerland
Thank you all for your responses. I was expecting more 224 * 33.33 = 7,465.92. However, I believe the 7,500 figure is merely a rounded and marketable approximation.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
Updating to add the M4 & M4 Max configs:

M4: 64 bits/module x 2 modules x (7500 x 10^6)/s x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes) = 120 GB/s
Memory options: 16 GB => 2 x 8 GB modules; 24 GB => 2 x 12 GB modules; 32 GB => 2 x 16 GB modules

M4 Pro: 64 bits/module x 4 modules x (8533 x 10^6)/s x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes) = 273.056 GB/s
Memory options: 24 GB => 4 x 6 GB modules; 48 GB => 4 x 12 GB modules; 64 GB => 4 x 16 GB modules

low-end M4 Max: 128 bits/module x 3 modules x (8533 x 10^6)/s x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes) = 409.584 GB/s
Memory options: 36 GB => 3 x 12 GB modules

high-end M4 Max: 128 bits/module x 4 modules x (8533 x 10^6)/s x 1 byte/(8 bits) x 1 GB/(10^9 bytes) = 546.112 GB/s
Memory options: 48 GB => 4 x 12 GB modules; 64 GB => 4 x 16 GB modules; 128 GB => 4 x 32 GB modules
 
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