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Hard truths about the new modular Mac Pro
- Thread starter rkuo
- Start date
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I am running a 5,1 and I have been extremely happy with it. If 6,1 were simply an upgraded 5,1, I would have bought one to replace my 5,1.
However, at this moment, I wouldn't hope that 7,1 is just a 5,1. It's too bulky in today's standard. The whole upper half for the superdrive(s) and hard drives is not necessary in today's standard. Just two internal 2.5inch SATA bays for SSD and a few slots for other faster SSD formats (M.2 for example) should be sufficient. The bulky 3.5inch drives can be used with external enclosures. On the other hand, I do hope the 2CPU capability and PCIe slots of 5,1 can reappear on 7,1.
but in the bigger picture, so what..
i mean, your computer needs are taken care of and you're happy with the system (systems?)..
so, that's good at least.
idk, i think we're just clashing on personality here and would see similar conflict over a wide variety of subjects.. we just happen to be talking computers atm .
would you really rather apple to just continue selling an upgraded G5? really?
like that's the best computer evar ?
personally, i'd way rather watch apple crash and burn due to outrageous (though unique) design attempts.
i'd prefer change.. for better or worse.
you'd prefer not changing.
neither is better than the other.. neither wins.. however, that's our conflict.
[doublepost=1491532881][/doublepost]
f5, you make me sad.
Because you're probably right. Form over function.
Jony should look at Dieter's stuff again. Functional and elegant. He's lost his way, and Apple suffers.
Myself - I put my workstations on the floor under my desk. Never see them - I only care how well they work, not what they look like.
j.Ive is human though. not a god.
Rams had what, 15 great designs in his 80smthng years..
Ive is on track with that.. arguably has already surpassed.
i'm sure Rams had at least a couple decade long spans with not so much magic.. then a quick spanning 2-3 good ones.. then back to remission/recharging.. etc. that's how it works with these type of people.
i personally think j.ive has at least another couple of iconic designs in his career.. maybe not for apple even..
i guess my point is that Ive hasn't lost it because that type of stuff doesn't just disappear *..
or - if he's a hack now, he's always been a hack.
(* edit- assuming he's still mentally sound.. if he's going crazy then all bets are off
)
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but in the bigger picture, so what..
(* edit- assuming he's still mentally sound.. if he's going crazy then all bets are off
Ive is a delusional Nucking Futs ego maniac (I've worked with a few people just like him). He drove the Mac into the ground with his ego. The coffee table book is proof of just how insane he actually is (see video):
http://www.apple.com/designed-by-apple/
Quote (at 0:13): "One of the things we've learned is the importance of listening"
Really? The latest news regarding the Mac Pro Failure announcement reports that the decision to rethink the Mac Pro happened very recently. So exactly how is that listening?
Quote (at 1:38): "... and ignore, in some senses, all the reasons something shouldn't be possible"
Really? Well, try living in the real world and you will quickly figure out why some things, how ever fantastic they appear, may be possible, but not viable. The 6,1 Mac Pro will go down in history as the best example of something that was created, but should not have been.
Also at 1:40: The way the guy is sitting on the table above the other three men is a very condescending body position. It's a very aggressive way to subordinate others you are communicating with. I've worked with people who behave like that, and they're all very sick people. There is no reason to sit like that in a professional work environment. If that type of behavior shows up in a video like this, then it is a strong indication of just how damaged the work environment is.
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heh, our difference in perception is 180º.
i've only used macs.. for 16years. and i'm not even slightly exaggerating when using 'only'.
macs are SO much better now than my first one.. night&day.
but you think mac has been driven into the ground.
we're on such different wavelengths that it's going to be difficult to have a flowing conversation.
i think if you think about it some more, you'll realize this can't be a very recent revelation..
schiller isn't, 3 weeks ago, going to be like "ok, let's rethink the mac pro.. any ideas?" ..designer:"let's make something modular".. phil "ok, cool.. i'll tell the public about that idea next week"..
no.. they have something.. and more than one month worth of something.. these apple execs are speaking somewhat vaguely about something they could describe with much more detail.. they're not going back to the drawing board right now.. they've already been back to the drawing board.
---
thing is, if it's 'revamp mac time', they want to get maximum impact and are going to draw it out as long as they can.. the weapons of choice will be mbp, imac, mac pro, and pro display.. they could probably release all three computers by summer.. but won't.
(*wild speculation there.. in case it's not obvious ; )
1 and 2 are correct in that they did not even realize they've been "off the rocker" for a very long time.
3 is just plain wrong. If the GPU thermal drops significantly, then the CPU can cook it in the "common thermal core" design.
4 Also correct, but probably the biggest sign Apple is dead. Ive gets to retreat to his padded cell and ignore reality again for as long as it takes to imagine the next impracticable masterpiece, which will really just be a master piece of excrement.
You're actually 180º from reality. See:
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/06/mac-pro-may-not-ship-until-2019/
specifically the quote: "The decision to move ahead with a modular Mac Pro replacement was made "in recent months" with development starting "only a few weeks ago," suggesting it's going to be a long wait."
Proof the've been fully submerged in their own Flavor Aid for all this time.
Also, when they decided to cut the max memory config to 16GB on the latest "Pro" laptop for a few millimeters of "thinness", they took their last breath.
More proof:
http://bgr.com/2016/11/21/macbook-pro-2016-16-gb-ram-limit/
You shouldn't think so much when they just tell you, or at all actually. That will make your future conversations flow much easier when you just don't say anything.
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right.. that's 360º exactly what i said.
you don't know reality.. no human does. we only have our perceptions of reality.. so yes, i'm actually 180º from your reality.. just like i said in that other post-- "heh, our difference in perception is 180º."
Expounding on the the Trash Can's place in history, bolstered by Shriller's famous "Can't innovate..." blathering:
The Mac Pro 6,1 "Trash Can": Designed for Phil's Ass, just not the way he expected it.
[doublepost=1491542641][/doublepost]F5: Please read the above line a few times.
I just wrote the final words regarding how history will remember the Mac Pro Trash can. Nothing else needs to be said. End Of.
Don't think. Just do yourself a favor and step away from the keyboard.
The Mac Pro 6,1 "Trash Can": Designed for Phil's Ass, just not the way he expected it.
[doublepost=1491542641][/doublepost]F5: Please read the above line a few times.
I just wrote the final words regarding how history will remember the Mac Pro Trash can. Nothing else needs to be said. End Of.
Don't think. Just do yourself a favor and step away from the keyboard.
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lol.. i know what you wrote.. and seriously, we are very different in perceptions of our world..
u think this way:
the way i think, no computer that's been seen to date, would even be remotely close to making my list of 'something that was created but should not have been'.. much less the #1 pick on my list..
like i wouldn't even go so far as to simply consider a PC if asked to make such a list.
I'm just amazed, that all people of this forum are hardware designers by trade.
I agree completely. Why not sell a new mother board and processor trays for existing 5,1 cMP and save all that hardware from going to the landfill. Save the world, save the mac. Also it could be done in the USA by third party suppliers like Otherwold or even users them self.
Did you even read the link you posted? It was due to battery life concerns, not size. A perfectly valid tradeoff for a portable machine that is largely revered as having excellent battery life whilst still being powerful enough to handle strenuous workloads.
Well... I don't think the trashcan was a mistake! It was novel and it did fit a given Pro market. We as well as others had expected a second model to come out that was aimed at the cheese grater market, Apple dropped it for some reason.
It could be they saw the sales numbers and jumped to the same concussion that just happened with the MacBook Pro's. They saw large sales as the pent-up demand was buying. But, unlike what happened here there was no older model to buy! So the sales dropped back down as the demand dropped. They didn't put two and two together as they did here with the MacBook Pro's, seeing the fact people wanted the Mac Pro grater replacement still.
The problem across all companies is they need to keep the finger on the pulse of their customers (listening!) as well as put a fire under their suppliers to create the next Wower. Apple clearly walked away from the Pro's. That could be because they just don't have the deep staffing to do it all, or someone is over protective! Needing to be at the center. Or, they only relied on the numbers which told them the market was dead (even though it's not), so why build more systems?
I'm not sure which it was, could even have been all of them.
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I bought the Mac Pro 1,1 and then replaced it with the trash can. I don't need the expansion, personally, so I've found the trash can to be just fine, however I can see its limitations and am pleased with Apple's announcement this week. They made a mistake and owned up to it. Whether that was a few months ago or last week really doesn't matter, the penny has dropped, they're keeping with the Pro market and that's the important thing.
Many of us thought they'd abandonded us completely so I can only see positives from all this.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a machine that encompassed the Mac Mini market as well as the Mac Pro. A machine that's smaller than the cheese grater but larger than the trash can that can accommodate a wide range of processor and GPU specs so that you can get one relatively cheaply (Mac Mini market) or spec it right up (Mac Pro market) and everywhere in between. One headless Mac for everyone who wants one that can take a variety of different components according to your specific needs.
You heard it here first. ;-)
Many of us thought they'd abandonded us completely so I can only see positives from all this.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a machine that encompassed the Mac Mini market as well as the Mac Pro. A machine that's smaller than the cheese grater but larger than the trash can that can accommodate a wide range of processor and GPU specs so that you can get one relatively cheaply (Mac Mini market) or spec it right up (Mac Pro market) and everywhere in between. One headless Mac for everyone who wants one that can take a variety of different components according to your specific needs.
You heard it here first. ;-)
I don't think that the MacPro1.1-5,1 ever sold in the quantities that Apple had hoped and the ones that were sold were held on to and upgraded and in use for many years. Then, people/companies who upgraded tended to sell used Mac Pros that were again in use for many years.
My theory is that with the MacPro6,1, Apple deliberately created a system with limited upgradability like pretty much every other product in their lineup with the hopes that it could increase the upgrade cycle of Mac Pro users. This backfired because the 6,1 was not a system that attracted the first round of buyers.
As sales of Mac Pros continued to decline, there was less focus on the Mac Pro and iMac sales climbed. I truly believe that lots of people bought iMacs for lack of a better choice and Apple mistook this as pros migrating to iMacs. But, at the end of the day, it's the pros who craved powerful, expandable Mac Pros couldn't make due with iMacs anymore and started seeking alternatives...
Again, this is just my theory and I have no evidence to back any of it up.
My theory is that with the MacPro6,1, Apple deliberately created a system with limited upgradability like pretty much every other product in their lineup with the hopes that it could increase the upgrade cycle of Mac Pro users. This backfired because the 6,1 was not a system that attracted the first round of buyers.
As sales of Mac Pros continued to decline, there was less focus on the Mac Pro and iMac sales climbed. I truly believe that lots of people bought iMacs for lack of a better choice and Apple mistook this as pros migrating to iMacs. But, at the end of the day, it's the pros who craved powerful, expandable Mac Pros couldn't make due with iMacs anymore and started seeking alternatives...
Again, this is just my theory and I have no evidence to back any of it up.
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I completely agree and in my view the smoking gun for that theory is that they created a proprietary graphics card format so that they simply couldn't be upgraded unless Apple decided to offer it. Not even the GPU manufacturers could offer aftermarket upgrade options.
It gave them the same amount of lock-in that they have with their notebooks but for desktop machines.
I like your theory.
In the meeting (if you read the transcript) Craig Federighi in particular kept banging on about how some pros had moved to iMacs. The reason has to be, at least in part, what you've identified in your observation. There simply wasn't any alternative, or the alternative (a different platform) just wasn't at all paletable for many pro users.
I suspect if they get the next model right then the movement (for pro users) could be back in the other direction!
It's not good to be locked up for years inside a lab designing and engineering Apple products. One needs to breath fresh air.but in the bigger picture, so what..
i mean, your computer needs are taken care of and you're happy with the system (systems?)..
so, that's good at least.
idk, i think we're just clashing on personality here and would see similar conflict over a wide variety of subjects.. we just happen to be talking computers atm .
would you really rather apple to just continue selling an upgraded G5? really?
like that's the best computer evar ?
personally, i'd way rather watch apple crash and burn due to outrageous (though unique) design attempts.
i'd prefer change.. for better or worse.
you'd prefer not changing.
neither is better than the other.. neither wins.. however, that's our conflict.
[doublepost=1491532881][/doublepost]
j.Ive is human though. not a god.
Rams had what, 15 great designs in his 80smthng years..
Ive is on track with that.. arguably has already surpassed.
i'm sure Rams had at least a couple decade long spans with not so much magic.. then a quick spanning 2-3 good ones.. then back to remission/recharging.. etc. that's how it works with these type of people.
i personally think j.ive has at least another couple of iconic designs in his career.. maybe not for apple even..
i guess my point is that Ive hasn't lost it because that type of stuff doesn't just disappear *..
or - if he's a hack now, he's always been a hack.
(* edit- assuming he's still mentally sound.. if he's going crazy then all bets are off
[doublepost=1491579593][/doublepost]
I have to agree with you on the GPU issue and it's a shame. No aftermarket options were possible. E-GPU's only.
Yup. 5,1 was the result of years of tower refinement: A quiet, powerful machine with loads of expansion possibilities.
7,1 needs to bring back internal drive bays, PCIe slots, extra RAM slots, multiple ports, etc. Most importantly, 7,1 should be configurable to the needs of the user. For ex., being primarily an audio guy, I have absolutely no use for dual video cards! (or a big honkin' expensive GPU) Give me the choice to equip the machine with what I need to run my studio, please!
//
One word that came up several times in the historic Apple meeting transcript was that the next MacPro was going to be a modular system. Ok, we all read that.
But what wasn't clarified (understandably) was what that modularity would be.
If you look up any definition of a modular computer, the definition always describes a computer system in which the components are separate entities or modules. The cMP is not considered a modular computer. Neither is the HP-Z.
"A modular PC is a computer that has individually-housed components, which are interconnected but separately removable for service or upgrading.
The format means that users can replace most components themselves because replacing a component does not require them to open enclosures, such as PC cases, or touch ESD-sensitive circuit boards."
Another point that was mentioned was that Apple found that THEY couldn't upgrade the nMP due to its design and that they wanted a new design that THEY could upgrade more easily & frequently in the future.
There was no hint or talk or mention of making the new modular MacPro a system in which the CUSTOMER could buy something at NewEgg & slap it in the box to upgrade. That wasn't the feeling I got at all.
Based on Apple's current trend of locking everything down to Apple-only proprietary parts, my guess (and it's only a guess based on an assumption — zero facts) is that this new modular MacPro will indeed have easily swappable "modules", but all these modules will all be Apple proprietary parts that will be easy for THEM to upgrade in the future and for us to plug in.
This could be great if we can afford the stuff and they truly alter the course of their history of pro hardware neglect by keeping everything cutting edge & up to date, but it is doubtful this new modular MacPro will be similar to anything currently available on the market and the only upgrade path for CUSTOMERS will most very likely be via one path only: Through the Apple Store.
But what wasn't clarified (understandably) was what that modularity would be.
If you look up any definition of a modular computer, the definition always describes a computer system in which the components are separate entities or modules. The cMP is not considered a modular computer. Neither is the HP-Z.
"A modular PC is a computer that has individually-housed components, which are interconnected but separately removable for service or upgrading.
The format means that users can replace most components themselves because replacing a component does not require them to open enclosures, such as PC cases, or touch ESD-sensitive circuit boards."
Another point that was mentioned was that Apple found that THEY couldn't upgrade the nMP due to its design and that they wanted a new design that THEY could upgrade more easily & frequently in the future.
There was no hint or talk or mention of making the new modular MacPro a system in which the CUSTOMER could buy something at NewEgg & slap it in the box to upgrade. That wasn't the feeling I got at all.
Based on Apple's current trend of locking everything down to Apple-only proprietary parts, my guess (and it's only a guess based on an assumption — zero facts) is that this new modular MacPro will indeed have easily swappable "modules", but all these modules will all be Apple proprietary parts that will be easy for THEM to upgrade in the future and for us to plug in.
This could be great if we can afford the stuff and they truly alter the course of their history of pro hardware neglect by keeping everything cutting edge & up to date, but it is doubtful this new modular MacPro will be similar to anything currently available on the market and the only upgrade path for CUSTOMERS will most very likely be via one path only: Through the Apple Store.