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Clix Pix

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Makes sense. I agree that art should be accessible - it might be the most important thing humans do as a species (but that's just me). And for sure, there's no tie-in between money and talent. In particular between money spent on tools and talent. It simply doesn't exist.
I, too, agree that art should be accessible, and that in schools it should be made available in each grade all the way through, involving students in art by providing the tools for them to experiment with their own art, plus also providing a look back at the past (i.e., art history) and helping students understand what makes great art truly "great."

I've been hearing more and more about some school systems around the country (US) cutting out classes in art and in music. To me, that is one of the very worst things they can do! Cut out or reduce some other program, but don't kill off students' access to art and music!
 
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r.harris1

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I, too, agree that art should be accessible, and that in schools it should be made available in each grade all the way through, involving students in art by providing the tools for them to experiment with their own art, plus also providing a look back at the past (i.e., art history) and helping students understand what makes great art truly "great."

I've been hearing more and more about some school systems around the country (US) cutting out classes in art and in music. To me, that is one of the very worst things they can do! Cut out or reduce some other program, but don't kill off students access to art and music!
Killing off art and music programs has been happening a lot here in Denver. Usually in the poorer neighborhoods, unfortunately. It's that access thing again. Music and art were life-saving for me in high school.
 
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Boidem

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I've been hearing more and more about some school systems around the country (US) cutting out classes in art and in music. To me, that is one of the very worst things they can do! Cut out or reduce some other program, but don't kill off students' access to art and music!
Without getting too political, it's been happening here in the UK for some time too. Sadly, the kind of course that I did is no longer available in quite the same way. 😪
 
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Freida

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Not really, didn't check the cameras this weekend as the office party went a bit nuts so the hangover won :)

Hopefully next weekend :)

We all should. January 1 2023 new year, new project. So @Freida are you any closer to answering your question?
 

kenoh

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I just feel that art needs to be made as accessible and democratic as possible, and this means removing whatever barriers there might be. I'm not on any 'crusade'; it's just that of all the different brands, Leica is the very worst at mythologising their products. At college, many students were from poorer backgrounds, and couldn't afford their own cams, so the college provided loaner cams for them to use. The legendary Pentax K1000. Heavy, basic, clunky and indestructible. But that didn't matter; what shone through was the talent of the individual (looking back, I think we should all have been forced to use those K1000s, level the playing field somewhat). There were other more priviledged students, one had a Rolleiflex TLR. Nice cam, but his work was really, really boring. He was into some form of esoterism none of us peasants 'got'. Hey ho. We were too busy having fun to care about ego. Expensive cams can be a barrier to realising talent, and whilst they may be great tools for those who can afford them, I think we should be concerned more with enabling potential than caring about brand identity and status symbols.

This article explains what I mean, very well:

'The early reputation that Leica had saw their cameras being adopted by many notable photographers in the early days of photojournalism and what we’d now broadly call street photography. The portability and reliability made them a great choice for such usage. What’s relevant about this today is that it’s these two fields of photography that are arguably the most aspired to by photographers looking to make a name for themselves outside of the more day-to-day fields commercial photography. I’d even go as far to say that these are the types of photography that command the most credibility and dare I say “cool”.
The knock-on effect of this is that the credibility associated with these fields of photography and those at the top of their game within them has over the last 90 odd years rubbed off on Leica cameras, especially I’d argue, the m-mount ones that take film. All those great film photographers who took all these great photos with Leica cameras throughout history did wonders for the reputation of the Leica brand. These days it almost seems imprinted into the history of photography that Leica cameras played a part in the creation of countless historically significant photographs – to the point in fact that some very famous photos are often incorrectly attributed as being shot with Leica cameras. This seems to have created some quite significant level of aspiration in budding photographers to own the things – great photos were taken with these great cameras, ergo, to take great photos one must own a Leica'


That's what I'm on about. I have nothing against tools themselves (or even those who use them). As I've said; I'd love to own a Leica at some stage, perhaps I will. What I am interested in, is an adapter for my Z6, to mount Leica lenses; after all, it's the lens that matters far more as far as the actual image is concerned.

So, steering vaguely back towards the OP; yes, you could use other brands' lenses such as Leica, on a ML cam. That could be great fun.

The bit that is strange is that you are getting hung up on Leica as if Sony, Canon and Nikon don’t give away kit so people are seen using them. As for printing in meticulous detail, everyone does that hardly a bad tactic from Leica. If you are printing your images you want them to be as good as you possibly can get them - that isn’t a bad thing.

Here is Sony’s room at the 2020 Olympics. This was the service centre where photographers could go and borrow gear.


Sponsoring people to get brand awareness is not a unique thing that Leica do/did.

If we want to talk about mythology, look at Hasselblad. For years they dressed up Sony NEX-7s as the “Lunar” and they use the fact they went to the moon as a marketing tool.

Also, you mentioned the instagram filter look. I beg to differ. I am of an age where photographs from my nostalgic memories, summer holidays, trips to the beach, special events shot on the likes of Kodachrome through single coated lenses. They had a look that is pleasing to look at and brings back memories. A lot of this was the combination of the lens and the film used. To think it is an Instagram thing cheapens it.

You referred to the Leica look. This was a thing in the 50s when the coatings of the lenses weren’t as effective as they are today and they produced images with a glow to them simultaneously, there was a level of contrast to images and so the resulting glow but relatively sharp contrasts were attributed to the Leica glow. It has been proved to be a characteristic of older Leitz lenses for example the 5cm collapsible Summaron. Advances in coatings mean it isn’t a thing anymore but a favourite button to push with Leica haters. The thing is, looking at it today, it isn’t necessarily a good thing, it was an identifiable characteristic of the tool used to take the image which people picked up on. The other piece that you might spot is that Leica M users have a habit of having the subject dead centre because of where the focus patch is.


 
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Boidem

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The bit that is strange is that you are getting hung up on Leica as if Sony, Canon and Nikon don’t give away kit so people are seen using them. As for printing in meticulous detail, everyone does that hardly a bad tactic from Leica. If you are printing your images you want them to be as good as you possibly can get them - that isn’t a bad thing.
I'm not 'hung up' on Leica at all. You seem to be taking this almost as a personal attack. I'm merely commenting on my view of Leica's marketing strategy. I am more than aware of other brands using different methods to promote their brands. I'm not objecting to marketing itself, just the nature of it. I have no problem with their products, just this promotion of a mythology which is often without any real dfoundation. The Lenny Kravitz special edition being a perfect example; products costing many times their normal price, simply because of a poo-brown finish and faux snake skin. And an association with a pretty mediocre pop star. A product aimed purely at those who wish to own such an item purely for prestige and a perceived 'value' in terms of investment rather than actual use as a creative tool. That. I don't see Sony, Nikon, Canon etc having to do that, as they really don't need to; their products are helping to define our age visually, through the myriad realms their cams and lenses are used in. Sports, news, fashion, wildlife etc etc etc; other brands are doing the heavy lifting. Leica no longer occupies a rarified position it once did. Ergo, it no longer deserves such mythologising. Those extremely expensive and proprietary fitting rose tinted filters need to come off.

Sponsoring people to get brand awareness is not a unique thing that Leica do/did.
I never said it was.
If we want to talk about mythology, look at Hasselblad. For years they dressed up Sony NEX-7s as the “Lunar” and they use the fact they went to the moon as a marketing tool.
Oh absolutely. That was an embarrassment. Such things were being sold in Harrods for ludicrous prices, many times what the much more humble (and probably better) product was. That is exactly the kind of thing I'm on about.
You referred to the Leica look. This was a thing in the 50s when the coatings of the lenses weren’t as effective as they are today and they produced images with a glow to them simultaneously, there was a level of contrast to images and so the resulting glow but relatively sharp contrasts were attributed to the Leica glow. It has been proved to be a characteristic of older Leitz lenses for example the 5cm collapsible Summaron. Advances in coatings mean it isn’t a thing anymore but a favourite button to push with Leica haters. The thing is, looking at it today, it isn’t necessarily a good thing, it was an identifiable characteristic of the tool used to take the image which people picked up on. The other piece that you might spot is that Leica M users have a habit of having the subject dead centre because of where the focus patch is.
Many other brands/manufacturers' products had similar characteristics. Such a thing was not unique to Leica. The 'Leica glow' is nothing more than a myth.

That article about such is amusing. I can't even being to dismantle it, there's simply too much to unpick. I mean, there's no actual objectivity in it at all, no science, just a load of pretentious waffle. Thanks for highlighting the precise kind of mythologising I am talking about. It illustrates my argument perfectly.

Also, you mentioned the instagram filter look. I beg to differ. I am of an age where photographs from my nostalgic memories, summer holidays, trips to the beach, special events shot on the likes of Kodachrome through single coated lenses. They had a look that is pleasing to look at and brings back memories. A lot of this was the combination of the lens and the film used. To think it is an Instagram thing cheapens it.
I totally get that. And I have no problem with anyone doing it for purely artistic reasons. I just can't stand it when hipsters do it because it's 'cool'. Ugh. So pretentious. I once saw a lad with an Olympus OM4Ti round his neck. I remarked what a nice cam it was. 'Is it? I've got no idea. I just thought it looked really cool and my friends like it'.

****ing Hipsters Ruin Everything.
 

Boidem

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That Novoflex adapter looks perfect. As a result of this thread, I've been perusing cheap Leica lenses on Ebay. Marketing. ;)
 
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r.harris1

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That Novoflex adapter looks perfect. As a result of this thread, I've been perusing cheap Leica lenses on Ebay. Marketing. ;)
If using actual Leica lenses isn't to your taste (it's hard to tell from your messaging), then try Voitlander or Zeiss M-mount lenses. Many of them are superb. They often aren't as compact as the Leica variety but they're compact enough and well built. And since you're not (I think) using a rangefinder camera, the slightly larger size will not be a problem but you still get plenty of the "c-word" - character :).
 

kenoh

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I'm not 'hung up' on Leica at all. You seem to be taking this almost as a personal attack. I'm merely commenting on my view of Leica's marketing strategy. I am more than aware of other brands using different methods to promote their brands. I'm not objecting to marketing itself, just the nature of it. I have no problem with their products, just this promotion of a mythology which is often without any real dfoundation. The Lenny Kravitz special edition being a perfect example; products costing many times their normal price, simply because of a poo-brown finish and faux snake skin. And an association with a pretty mediocre pop star. A product aimed purely at those who wish to own such an item purely for prestige and a perceived 'value' in terms of investment rather than actual use as a creative tool. That. I don't see Sony, Nikon, Canon etc having to do that, as they really don't need to; their products are helping to define our age visually, through the myriad realms their cams and lenses are used in. Sports, news, fashion, wildlife etc etc etc; other brands are doing the heavy lifting. Leica no longer occupies a rarified position it once did. Ergo, it no longer deserves such mythologising. Those extremely expensive and proprietary fitting rose tinted filters need to come off.


I never said it was.

Oh absolutely. That was an embarrassment. Such things were being sold in Harrods for ludicrous prices, many times what the much more humble (and probably better) product was. That is exactly the kind of thing I'm on about.

Many other brands/manufacturers' products had similar characteristics. Such a thing was not unique to Leica. The 'Leica glow' is nothing more than a myth.

That article about such is amusing. I can't even being to dismantle it, there's simply too much to unpick. I mean, there's no actual objectivity in it at all, no science, just a load of pretentious waffle. Thanks for highlighting the precise kind of mythologising I am talking about. It illustrates my argument perfectly.


I totally get that. And I have no problem with anyone doing it for purely artistic reasons. I just can't stand it when hipsters do it because it's 'cool'. Ugh. So pretentious. I once saw a lad with an Olympus OM4Ti round his neck. I remarked what a nice cam it was. 'Is it? I've got no idea. I just thought it looked really cool and my friends like it'.

****ing Hipsters Ruin Everything.

Hipsters have a lot to answer for. As do millennials but that is for a different web forum entirely. 😂

I am feeling attacked because you saw fit to criticise my description of why I personally like using them.

So to be clear, I agree completely that the bonkers pricing of limited editions is nonsense and too much in the way of the fashion houses. Some of whom I think decide over a coffee "how much do you think we can charge and keep a straight face?" - Thousands for a Hermes scarf springs to mind.

My argument is that Leica does still have some claim to some mythology as you put it. It is their history it happened and you say you would like to own one. So if you think it is clap trap, why do you hope to own one?

Now the reality is that Leica cameras do offer something different. The lenses. Are they better than the rest? depends on the criteria used to measure "best". They are a tool for a job and they do that intended job very well.

You criticise the article I referenced regards the glow. That's fine, it was just the first hit on a Google search. There are countless others with more scientific credentials that you can read so you can differentiate between history and mythology and identify the lenses that you want to try or avoid depending on your position on the glow.

I am glad it helped with the Novoflex adapter. I hope it opens up pleasing options for you. Now when it comes to lenses to try with it, I recommend not overlooking Voigtlander and Zeiss (they are both owned by Cosina but offer different line ups). Plenty of great glass at a variety of price points. In addition to this, you could even look at some of the Russian copies of the Zeiss lenses - Jupiter-8 for example or something like a Hexanon 58mm f2. The advent of the first Sony A7 brought back to life a whole host of long forgotten lens systems.

Just be aware that you need to be careful with lenses wider than 35mm as some of them start to get colour casts because of the angle they project light to the sensor. Digital sensors are more intolerant to the angle of incidence.

Leica M digital cameras and the SL cameras have thinner sensor stacks and micro lenses that change the angle of light hitting the sides of the sensor to combat this. Obviously your Z6 was never intended to be fitted with a Leica M lens and so it may suffer.
 

Boidem

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If using actual Leica lenses isn't to your taste (it's hard to tell from your messaging), then try Voitlander or Zeiss M-mount lenses. Many of them are superb. They often aren't as compact as the Leica variety but they're compact enough and well built. And since you're not (I think) using a rangefinder camera, the slightly larger size will not be a problem but you still get plenty of the "c-word" - character :).
No it's the Leica lenses I want to try. I have no doubt they are superb. I'd just like to give them a go for my own enjoyment. Happy to try others though; with adapters, using other lenses is no different to using F-mount lenses now.

I am feeling attacked because you saw fit to criticise my description of why I personally like using them.
Once again; I criticised the language you used, not YOU as a person. You're not being 'attacked'. Oversensitive, perhaps, but definitely not 'attacked'. In fairness, much of what you posted does sound like it's straight outta Leica's own marketing dept. In terms of the 'science' of lenses, I have read up on optical science, did it as part of my college course. Which is why I know that many of the mythical 'qualities' attributed to Leica lenses are also inherent in other makes of lenses too. Preference of one 'look' over another is purely subjective; optical flaws do not lend anything else to the making of photographs. And the lenses used in the making of great photographs aren't the thing that makes the photograph great. This is what Leica and their acolytes seem to imply (particularly in that gushing fanboi article), and it's simply nothing more than subjective opinion. Bottom line; there is no such thing as the 'Leica Look'. This is a subjective fabrication. It's into the realms of such fantasy as some hi-fi guff like 'directional' speaker cables etc. One massive, major factor many Leica fans completely fail to acknowledge is that pictures shot on any cam had to be printed, right? So the final printed image is also subject to the particular optical characteristics of the enlarger lens. So what people think they recognise as the 'Leica Look', could in fact be something caused by an enlarger lens of a totally different brand. Digital doesn't seem to be thowing up any 'proof' of this mythical thing. I'll state this with confidence; nobody could identify what lens was used to take a particular photograph, by brand/model alone. There are too many other variables (film type, development, storage, printing etc) that would affect the final image. So let's move away from this silly argument.



Now the reality is that Leica cameras do offer something different. The lenses.
This is an argument any camera and lens manufacturer can make about their products. Placebo effect plays a massive part in all this. I've seen 'tests' where a Leica lens is claimed as being 'better' than other brands, despite the actual evidence showing otherwise. Mythology. It's a powerful thing. That's why we still have wars over ideologies...

Just be aware that you need to be careful with lenses wider than 35mm as some of them start to get colour casts because of the angle they project light to the sensor. Digital sensors are more intolerant to the angle of incidence.

Leica M digital cameras and the SL cameras have thinner sensor stacks and micro lenses that change the angle of light hitting the sides of the sensor to combat this. Obviously your Z6 was never intended to be fitted with a Leica M lens and so it may suffer.
Interesting. Thanks.
 

Boidem

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My argument is that Leica does still have some claim to some mythology as you put it. It is their history it happened and you say you would like to own one. So if you think it is clap trap, why do you hope to own one?
I'm interested in good quailty stuff. It's why I choose Apple products over others, for example. I am more than aware how the marketing works on me, but I'm happy with that. I don't, hower, go round telling others that Apple are better simply because of imagined/mythical qualities; if someone wants my opinion, I will give it based on my experience. I will try to be as objective as possible. You'll notice at no stage in this thread have I claimed Nikon (my camera brand of choice) are 'better' than say Sony or Canon. Because I don't believe they are, in spite of owning Nikon gear. In my eyes, all three brands are more or less equal, one might do something better than the others, and vice versa. I've stated already that choosing one brand over the others, will not be a bad choice at all. There are features of other brands that I'd like to have in my cams, and I'm sure the same is true for owners of other brands towards Nikon/Sony/Canon/whatever. I'm just trying to be objective. I'll offer my onions based on my experience with Nikon cams, because that's what I have to offer the discussion. I have experience with most other brands (never used Sony mind), so I can ofer opinions based on those experiences too. I have experience with Leica cameras and lenses, so I can offer opinions based on that. I would like to own a Leica because like many others, I like nice things; Leicas are extremely well made, they are lovely mechanical objects (I'm really not at all interested in their digital products). Leica equipment seems to endure beyond many other brands, and even quite ancient kit can still perform very highly, when other stuff has long since given up the ghost. See; that's a part of the 'mythology' that I can get on board with. I've seen other much more modern equipment, including Nikon, just fall apart after not such a long period. I had a faulty Canon 50mm f1.4 AF lens that was shockingly poor quality. So; that's why Leica cameras and lenses appeal to me.

It has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Lenny Kravitz.

Or the Sultan of Brunei.
 

r.harris1

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I'll personally move on from this discussion since it has gotten way off topic, but I think the greatest myth that exists is that of the "objective human". I've never met one. I never got taught by one in college (even as a mathematician). Humans subscribe to one myth or another or a set of beliefs or ideologies. I would argue that most of society is held together by myth. Is there a Leica myth? Of course. Is there a Leica look? Maybe. I know that when I shoot a rangefinder (we can dispense with brand), the outcome is different than when I shoot with my dSLR (35mm or medium format). So for me, personally, I have a Leica (or rangefinder) look. It has a look because I approach a scene differently and I know I have different opportunities and constraints with the rangefinder than with my other systems. I'll shoot wide open more with the rangefinder because certainly a number of the lenses are built with that in mind. Optical design does matter and does affect how the lens draws on the sensor or film. Is it different because the lenses are made by special Leica elves in Wetzlar overseen by Lenny Kravitz? Yes (just kidding :)). Will people know that it's a rangefinder? I shouldn't think so. The important thing for me is that I know it.
 

mollyc

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I'll personally move on from this discussion since it has gotten way off topic, but I think the greatest myth that exists is that of the "objective human". I've never met one. I never got taught by one in college (even as a mathematician). Humans subscribe to one myth or another or a set of beliefs or ideologies. I would argue that most of society is held together by myth. Is there a Leica myth? Of course. Is there a Leica look? Maybe. I know that when I shoot a rangefinder (we can dispense with brand), the outcome is different than when I shoot with my dSLR (35mm or medium format). So for me, personally, I have a Leica (or rangefinder) look. It has a look because I approach a scene differently and I know I have different opportunities and constraints with the rangefinder than with my other systems. I'll shoot wide open more with the rangefinder because certainly a number of the lenses are built with that in mind. Optical design does matter and does affect how the lens draws on the sensor or film. Is it different because the lenses are made by special Leica elves in Wetzlar overseen by Lenny Kravitz? Yes (just kidding :)). Will people know that it's a rangefinder? I shouldn't think so. The important thing for me is that I know it.
Yes, when I think of all the hoopla that goes around sports, and grown men wearing jerseys, paying thousands of dollars for a ticket. The way young women fan over Harry Styles, or groupies following their band of choice. Instagram memes posted everyday playing "this or that." Everything is driven by personal decision, and to say that personal choice should have little value in making a decision, well that strips out everything human. My kids, born of the same parents, raised in the same household, also have very different choices and beliefs about some topics. They just came that way, and no amount of persuasion will change their minds about some things.

Humans love stories, and if any given brand of camera helps them see and tell better stories, then have at it.
 

Boidem

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I'll personally move on from this discussion since it has gotten way off topic, but I think the greatest myth that exists is that of the "objective human". I've never met one. I never got taught by one in college (even as a mathematician). Humans subscribe to one myth or another or a set of beliefs or ideologies. I would argue that most of society is held together by myth. Is there a Leica myth? Of course. Is there a Leica look? Maybe. I know that when I shoot a rangefinder (we can dispense with brand), the outcome is different than when I shoot with my dSLR (35mm or medium format). So for me, personally, I have a Leica (or rangefinder) look. It has a look because I approach a scene differently and I know I have different opportunities and constraints with the rangefinder than with my other systems. I'll shoot wide open more with the rangefinder because certainly a number of the lenses are built with that in mind. Optical design does matter and does affect how the lens draws on the sensor or film. Is it different because the lenses are made by special Leica elves in Wetzlar overseen by Lenny Kravitz? Yes (just kidding :)). Will people know that it's a rangefinder? I shouldn't think so. The important thing for me is that I know it.
That's all completely fair enough. And yes; nobody can ever be completely objective really. We're all influenced, consciously or not, by marketing, ideology etc. I've always felt it very important to at least try to remain objective though, and form my opinions based on personal experience rather than allowing myself to be unduly influenced by external factors and forces. Hence my aversion to mythologising in this sort of sense.

As for choice of equipment; it's great that different people have different approaches. I'm definitely not a large format shooter, as I'm far too impatient and very much more into the 'moment'. But I can admire work done by artists using large format cameras. When the furore over an Andreas Gursky photo exploded (Rhein II I think), I, like many others, thought 'what's the fuss, it's quite boring'. But then I delved more deeply into Gursky's work, and discovered many great images. So I 'get' the process. And I find myself looking to take images of a similar 'feel',because I like the aesthetic. On another forum many years back, there was one poster who I found really, really annoying; arrogant, self-centred and conceited, and so utterly pretentious. He'd link to his website as a way of showing off (it was essentially product/advertising stuff, mostly heavily Photoshopped, and the work of a team rather than an individual). Most of the photos were, to me, unimpressive. Technically perfect, but completely lacking in soul. But there was one image that stood out for me, because it resonated with my own sense of aesthetics. I cannot lie and say I wasn't influenced in some way by it. My personal feelings towards this character were irrelevant; that one image stood on its own merits. And that's what matters. The image. I'm not interested in the 'journey'; only the destination.

For my own work, I'm as fussy as anyone else, over equipment. I want the best I can get, within reason and budget. Leica (fortunately) doesn't work for me in terms of my own requirements and budget. That's just how it is. When I was young, the best tool was an FM2. As I grew older (and my eyesight deteriorated), AF became more important. So equipment choice had to consider this aspect. I enjoy portraiture (amongst many other genres), and one crucially important aspect for me is lens choice of course. But beyond that, the lens has to be as sharp as possible. I like sharpness. Some of my early portraits were marred by not quite accurate focussing, or poor lens quality. So; we seek the best we can get. For my own amusement, I conducted a 'test' using 4 different Nikon 50mm lenses; an old f1.8 manual focus, an f1.8 AF-D, an f1.4 AF-S 'G', and the Z-mount f1.8. Mounted on a tripod, IBIS/VR turned off, same settings for each, all at f1.8. Rating them in order of sharpness, had the Z-mount first, then the AF-D, then the old MF, then lastly the f1.4. I posted the results on a photography forum I was using at the time, and asked people to guess which lens was which, from each photo. Some got the Z-mount, but quite a few wrongly guessed the f1.4. Now this (unscientifically I know, I make no claims otherwise) demonstrates the myth that surrounds some equipment. Several people thought that the f1.4 would naturally be sharper, because it's more expensive and coveted, right? Fact is, that particular lens isn't actually as sharp as other 50mm Nikkors, and in fact many of the f1.8 versions are in fact sharper. The f1.4 is more highly coveted because it's faster, but also because of the mythology. It was an interesting experiement, and I learned a lot from it, beyond the actual results themselves. I recouped my costs on the f1.4 and happily moved on.

So I hope that shower of verbosity helps to explain what I'm on about. TL;DR: get the tools that suit YOU, but concentrate on the image, and not the tools.
 
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kenoh

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Glasgow, UK
That's all completely fair enough. And yes; nobody can ever be completely objective really. We're all influenced, consciously or not, by marketing, ideology etc. I've always felt it very important to at least try to remain objective though, and form my opinions based on personal experience rather than allowing myself to be unduly influenced by external factors and forces. Hence my aversion to mythologising in this sort of sense.

As for choice of equipment; it's great that different people have different approaches. I'm definitely not a large format shooter, as I'm far too impatient and very much more into the 'moment'. But I can admire work done by artists using large format cameras. When the furore over an Andreas Gursky photo exploded (Rhein II I think), I, like many others, thought 'what's the fuss, it's quite boring'. But then I delved more deeply into Gursky's work, and discovered many great images. So I 'get' the process. And I find myself looking to take images of a similar 'feel',because I like the aesthetic. On another forum many years back, there was one poster who I found really, really annoying; arrogant, self-centred and conceited, and so utterly pretentious. He'd link to his website as a way of showing off (it was essentially product/advertising stuff, mostly heavily Photoshopped, and the work of a team rather than an individual). Most of the photos were, to me, unimpressive. Technically perfect, but completely lacking in soul. But there was one image that stood out for me, because it resonated with my own sense of aesthetics. I cannot lie and say I wasn't influenced in some way by it. My personal feelings towards this character were irrelevant; that one image stood on its own merits. And that's what matters. The image. I'm not interested in the 'journey'; only the destination.

For my own work, I'm as fussy as anyone else, over equipment. I want the best I can get, within reason and budget. Leica (fortunately) doesn't work for me in terms of my own requirements and budget. That's just how it is. When I was young, the best tool was an FM2. As I grew older (and my eyesight deteriorated), AF became more important. So equipment choice had to consider this aspect. I enjoy portraiture (amongst many other genres), and one crucially important aspect for me is lens choice of course. But beyond that, the lens has to be as sharp as possible. I like sharpness. Some of my early portraits were marred by not quite accurate focussing, or poor lens quality. So; we seek the best we can get. For my own amusement, I conducted a 'test' using 4 different Nikon 50mm lenses; an old f1.8 manual focus, an f1.8 AF-D, an f1.4 AF-S 'G', and the Z-mount f1.8. Mounted on a tripod, IBIS/VR turned off, same settings for each, all at f1.8. Rating them in order of sharpness, had the Z-mount first, then the AF-D, then the old MF, then lastly the f1.4. I posted the results on a photography forum I was using at the time, and asked people to guess which lens was which, from each photo. Some got the Z-mount, but quite a few wrongly guessed the f1.4. Now this (unscientifically I know, I make no claims otherwise) demonstrates the myth that surrounds some equipment. Several people thought that the f1.4 would naturally be sharper, because it's more expensive and coveted, right? Fact is, that particular lens isn't actually as sharp as other 50mm Nikkors, and in fact many of the f1.8 versions are in fact sharper. The f1.4 is more highly coveted because it's faster, but also because of the mythology. It was an interesting experiement, and I learned a lot from it, beyond the actual results themselves. I recouped my costs on the f1.4 and happily moved on.

So I hope that shower of verbosity helps to explain what I'm on about. TL;DR: get the tools that suit YOU, but concentrate on the image, and not the tools.
Similar to the Canon 50mm. The EF f1.8, f1.4 and f1.2L the f1.4 is known as the dud in the line up. Inferior even to the plastic fantastic f1.8.
 

GumaRodak

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2015
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If your main usage is traveling, i would get a fuji x100. Dslr or any mirror less require lenses, you can get zoom ofc. But its big and bulky. Fuji x100 is ideal for traveling and documentary style with its 35mm focal lenght.
 

Boidem

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If your main usage is traveling, i would get a fuji x100. Dslr or any mirror less require lenses, you can get zoom ofc. But its big and bulky. Fuji x100 is ideal for traveling and documentary style with its 35mm focal lenght.
That's a good suggestion, if your style of photography suits a 35mm lens. It was fine for Henri Cartier Bresson after all. I had an Olympus Mju-2, the popular little point and shoot compact, and found the lens a little limiting; never quite long enough to isolate subjects (the relatively small f2.8 aperture didn't help much in that regard) like a 50mm, and never quite wide enough to get stuff in the frame, like a 28 or 24mm. A fixed single focal length lens is always going to be a compromise. The X100V is expensive, and not particularly versatile, and imo you can get much better value with a ILC. It's also not all that small, as you say. Something like a Nikon Z50 or Zfc would offer far more versatility at a much lower cost. There is a DX 24mm lens (so 36mm full frame equivalent) planned, so that would offer a potentially cheaper and better alternative. Or one of Fuji's other excellent MILCs. Or a Sony. Or even a Canon!
 
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ericwn

macrumors G5
Apr 24, 2016
12,114
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If your main usage is traveling, i would get a fuji x100. Dslr or any mirror less require lenses, you can get zoom ofc. But its big and bulky. Fuji x100 is ideal for traveling and documentary style with its 35mm focal lenght.
Great suggestion and camera. Like most Fujis these days to be fair.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
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Kentucky
Similar to the Canon 50mm. The EF f1.8, f1.4 and f1.2L the f1.4 is known as the dud in the line up. Inferior even to the plastic fantastic f1.8.

And among Nikons, the best 50mm for a long time was actually the Nikkor-H 50mm f/2. The AF 50mm f/1.8 is to my eyes inferior to it, although the somewhat uncommon 50mm f/1.8 AI-s(which had a short production run) is very close to the f/2, but for whatever reason Nikon called the Series E f/1.8 design good enough for the AF version.

I THINK the 50mm f/1.8G is a new formula and better, although I honestly can't say first hand. I HAVE one, but it was an Ebay buy from my friend Chuck and I quite literally picked it up from him with my car packed as I was leaving town to move to my current location in August of 2020. It's on my Fuji S5 now-I should use it.

Of course the 55mm f/2.8 Micro is even better than any of these, and IMO as a macro lens the f/3.5 version is even better. The standard spherical 55mm f/1.2 is awful. The 58mm Noct is very good in some respects and probably has the best absolute resolution of any of the 50s, but has some weird artifacts and of course is nutty money.
 
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mollyc

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Aug 18, 2016
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And among Nikons, the best 50mm for a long time was actually the Nikkor-H 50mm f/2. The AF 50mm f/1.8 is to my eyes inferior to it, although the somewhat uncommon 50mm f/1.8 AI-s(which had a short production run) is very close to the f/2, but for whatever reason Nikon called the Series E f/1.8 design good enough for the AF version.

I THINK the 50mm f/1.8G is a new formula and better, although I honestly can't say first hand. I HAVE one, but it was an Ebay buy from my friend Chuck and I quite literally picked it up from him with my car packed as I was leaving town to move to my current location in August of 2020. It's on my Fuji S5 now-I should use it.

Of course the 55mm f/2.8 Micro is even better than any of these, and IMO as a macro lens the f/3.5 version is even better. The standard spherical 55mm f/1.2 is awful. The 58mm Noct is very good in some respects and probably has the best absolute resolution of any of the 50s, but has some weird artifacts and of course is nutty money.
You need to try some Z lenses (yes, this obviously requires a Z camera which I know you don't have). They still don't rate as highly as the F mounts because the Z costs more and isn't as adaptable to other bodies, but optically the Z lenses rate among the best of Nikon ever.
 

bunnspecial

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May 3, 2014
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You need to try some Z lenses (yes, this obviously requires a Z camera which I know you don't have). They still don't rate as highly as the F mounts because the Z costs more and isn't as adaptable to other bodies, but optically the Z lenses rate among the best of Nikon ever.
No doubt about that. Most are "clean sheet" designs and with the short flange distance wide to normal lenses can avoid retrofocus or not be as dramatic as in an SLR lens.

One of these days maybe...although to be honest as much as I like splitting hairs over performance I don't see it a lot of times in the real world. My new 24-70 is a prime example of that-even though it's better on paper than the old one, VR makes more of a difference than anything(and I'd enjoy IBIS with all lenses on a Z camera).
 
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Boidem

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And among Nikons, the best 50mm for a long time was actually the Nikkor-H 50mm f/2. The AF 50mm f/1.8 is to my eyes inferior to it, although the somewhat uncommon 50mm f/1.8 AI-s(which had a short production run) is very close to the f/2, but for whatever reason Nikon called the Series E f/1.8 design good enough for the AF version.
The Series E became the 'pancake' AI-s lens. 6 elements in 5 groups. It was an excellent lens. The AF-D was multicoated. The multicoating on later lenses (into the 90s and 2000s was better at reducing glare, ghosting, flare etc). I believe the Nikkor-H was the same 6 element design. The even older lens was a '5cm' f2, that was a 7 element design. The most recent AF-G 50mm f1.8 is also a 7 element design, and has an aspherical element. That is reputedly even better than the AF-D version, sharper, better coatings. IME, the newer lenses tend to be better; better coatings, and more accurate manufacturing techniques. I've used countless 50mm lenses over the decades, and the very best I've ever used is the new Z-series 50mm f1.8. It's another level.

Of course the 55mm f/2.8 Micro is even better than any of these, and IMO as a macro lens the f/3.5 version is even better. The standard spherical 55mm f/1.2 is awful. The 58mm Noct is very good in some respects and probably has the best absolute resolution of any of the 50s, but has some weird artifacts and of course is nutty money.
The Micro Nikkors are flat field lenses, and have superb sharpness across the entire frame. I personally like using Micro Nikkors for portraiture, but many prefer curved-field 'normal' lenses as they offer softer out of focus areas/edges, and arguably nicer 'bokeh'. Some might talk about flat-field lenses 'flattening' things too much and losing that '3D' look. Plus Micro Nikkors have smaller maximum apertures, and many people prefer the larger f1.8-1.2 apertures for portrait lenses. So, you know. Everyone has their own preferences.

Noct Nikkors are designed for use at night/in very low light conditions, wide open, so are better than standard lenses for that purpose, as they reduce 'sagittal coma' aberration. And as you say, 'nutty money'. This is one reason why the Z-series Noct 58mm f0.95 (!) is so ridiculously expensive; not only does it have all the extra design and special lens elements to reduce that aberration, it also has modern coatings etc, and is designed specifically for very high resolution digital sensors, not film. Some older lenses fair quite poorly on modern digital sensors, where they were once lauded for film shooting.

You need to try some Z lenses (yes, this obviously requires a Z camera which I know you don't have). They still don't rate as highly as the F mounts because the Z costs more and isn't as adaptable to other bodies, but optically the Z lenses rate among the best of Nikon ever.
We are now at a point where we have perhaps the best photographic technology ever, with digital sensors now matching and even surpassing the resolution some lenses can offer, and with new optical designs that are optimised for such sensors. What a time to be alive.
 

bunnspecial

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May 3, 2014
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Truth be told, I don't even use 50mm that often any more, other than using a 55mm f/3.5 for macro.

My go to walk around film lens these days is the 35mm f/1.4 AI-s. Yes it's optically horrible at f/1.4, but has a look I can't get with any other lens. At f/2 it's every bit the equal of the 35mm f/2 I also have.

I typically try to follow the "doubling rule"(loosely) if I'm walking around with a small film kit. Often it's the 20mm f/4, 35mm f/1.4, 85mm f/2 and 135mm f/2.8. Sometimes I'll skip directly from 35mm to 105mm, and then go to the 200mm f/4. The key with this whole kit is all of these lenses use 52mm filters, which is a big benefit. I even will carry the whole thing in a Nikon "Doctor's Bag"-the amazingly useful one with bayonet mounts in the bottom to hold your lenses.

I used a Series E 50mm for a while, but never took to it(maybe I have a bad one). The 50mm f/1.8 AI-s is a much better lens, even though it's bigger and heavier. It's a multicoated 7 element. If I'm going to carry a 50mm(ish) lens, though, my go to is the 5.8cm f/1.4. That one was a horrendously difficult lens for me to get, and I finally lucked into one incorrectly described as part of an early F kit on Ebay that somehow flew under the radar. It's optically poor-not as bad as the 55mm f/1.2 but not great-but it has a look I can't get from any other 50mm lens including the "swirly" wide open bokeh.
 

Boidem

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I used a Series E 50mm for a while, but never took to it(maybe I have a bad one). The 50mm f/1.8 AI-s is a much better lens, even though it's bigger and heavier. It's a multicoated 7 element.
You do know it's pretty much the same lens, and has just 6 elements, right? The AI-S version is simply the AI version with an extra notch cut out in the mount, to allow cams to detect an AI-S lens for auto aperture control. There are cosmetically different versions of the same MF lens, including the E-type (which is simply more plasticky than the 'proper' Nikkors), 'long nose' and 'pancake' versions, and over time, different iterations had improved coatings and what not. Sometimes minimum focussing distances were shorter, more aperture blades etc. But the optical design was essentially the same, right up until the AF-G version, which was the first 7-element f1.8 50.

It's optically poor-not as bad as the 55mm f/1.2 but not great-but it has a look I can't get from any other 50mm lens including the "swirly" wide open bokeh.
You seem to be a fan of the old lenses, and that's fine, if you like the aesthetics offered by such. Personally, I don't, much, and prefer the optical superiority of newer lenses. But to each, their own. It's worth noting that many lenses, particularly the new Z-series (S-Line) are being designed around new digital sensors, so the whole game has changed significantly. Many of the later G-series F-mount lenses have been designed for digital sensors, and of course all the new Z-series. IMO, photography changed when full frame digital cams such as the Canon EOS 5D and Nikon D700 were released. And things have only got better since. I was a staunch film acolyte right up until that point, whereupon I finally saw the light.
 
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