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Wireless isn't going to completely replace the wired connection on mobile devices for a VERY long time. As for digital audio, USB-C will be the standard in just a few more years, only a complete Apple fanatic could think otherwise (and I'm saying that as an engineer that worked at Apple for many years and who also owned the very first models of the Mac, iPod, iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV).

I'm very aware of where the industry has been and I think I have a good idea of where the future lies (and it isn't with the Lightning port). The Lighting port was a good idea when it was first introduced, but that time is now gone given USB-C.

I guess I should add that I'm not predicting that Apple will actually route analog audio over the Lightning port, I'm just saying that they could and that it might happen.

I think the most likely outcome is that Apple will just remove the 3.5mm headphone port and offer only digital audio out, but that's going to make a good number of customers (or former customers) pretty upset (IMO).

Even if USB-C does become the digital audio standard in just a few more years, it's still not going to replace the 3.5mm connector on everything else. So people are still going to need adapters, which means it doesn't matter whether it's USB-C or Lightning, for many, many more years.

Your claim to being an Engineer who worked at Apple is somewhat dubious, which is somewhat confused by your insistence of an analogue output adapter from Lightning, especially when you say that the absence of one will drive customers away. But in the same post you talk about an all digital USB-C port being the "standard" mobile audio output very soon. So which is it? Customers will leave Apple to keep their 3.5mm Jack, or to embrace USB-C and go all digital because everyone is going to eventually remove the 3.5mm Jack. I can't figure out exactly what your issue is here -- you want Apple to offer analogue audio that requires an adapter, but want them to switch to USB-C and then it's OK if they don't offer analogue audio?

Add to that, as an Apple engineer you seemed to have a fundemental misunderstanding about how the 30-pin to Lightning adapter works and why it's important to your point that Apple chose not to provide analogue audio over Lightning.

Yes, the other Macs will get USB-C but NOT Lightning (you can be absolutely sure of that).

Because you're a former Apple engineer who owns one of everything Apple has made?

Sorry, you're entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is unless you want to post your linked-in details to confirm your engineering pedigree and insider knowledge.

What I'm sure is there's no way Apple will remove the headphone jack and force customers to use their new Lightning headphones with an adapter on their new MacBooks. Plus there are a number of compelling reasons to add a Lightning port to the MacBook, in line with what they've already been doing with Lightning.

I'm more sure this might happen than you are of analogue over Lightning.
 
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Actually here is a question...

Lets say Apple really does go through with this and I end up being forced to buy a set of Lightning headphones.

How do I plug my Lightning headphones into my Macbook Air or for that matter any Mac, because none of them have a Lightning connector?

Do I now need another adapter to go from Lightning to 3.5mm just to be able to plug into my laptop?

Or should I carry around two sets of headphones? One with a lightning connector for my iPhone and one with 3.5mm for the laptop and stereo / monitor at work?

I'm not too keen on Bluetooth headphones, because their offer poor sound quality and my existing laptop will not have some future enhanced version of Bluetooth that the iPhone 7 may offer.
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73CortinaV8 said:
that jack is ... holding back progress in how sound is delivered to the ears.

I think MP3 is the bigger culprit. Even if Lighting offers higher fidelity than the 3.5mm jack you're never going to see the gain listening to the same highly compressed mp3 files.

Apple would have start selling high definition or at the very least uncompressed CD quality tracks to start talking advantage of any improvements in audio quality that Lighting offers.

I recently pulled out an old music CD and compared it to the identical tracks I purchased off the iTunes Store. The files off the CD sounded noticeably better, without the aliasing in the highs that you hear in the mp3. So, basically I'm going back to buying CD's and will avoid purchasing from the iTunes store as much as possible, until Apple offers a much higher quality audio format.
 
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Why is it that Apple waited until they got a large customer base before they started soldering in RAM, using a proprietary NVMe connector and getting rid of the extremely common 3.5mm headphone jack?
They didn't. It's not related. Nvme replaced the slow sata Interface, the ram soldering in some devices is not an issue (whether you agree or not, those devices are considered non user replaceable). And the 3,5 connector is an extra hole in a device, and in this device very susceptible to dust, dirt, rust. The upcoming market and crowdfunding popularity of headphones that aren't used for only listening, but have more tech like noise canceling is a giveaway people don't like the wire.
 
They didn't. It's not related. Nvme replaced the slow sata Interface, the ram soldering in some devices is not an issue (whether you agree or not, those devices are considered non user replaceable). And the 3,5 connector is an extra hole in a device, and in this device very susceptible to dust, dirt, rust. The upcoming market and crowdfunding popularity of headphones that aren't used for only listening, but have more tech like noise canceling is a giveaway people don't like the wire.
1. Yeah, I know about NVME. But there’s no real-world difference between SATA and NVMe. The only time you’ll notice a difference is when you’re editing or rendering video, or loading a game. Otherwise, there’s no noticeable difference between SATA and NVMe. If Apple had used a standard M.2 connector, Solid State Drive upgrades would be easily affordable. But Apple’s custom NVMe connector makes Solid State Drive upgrades prohibitively expensive.
2. RAM was never considered non-user replaceable. Apple even included instructions for upgrading RAM back when they made Macs with upgradeable RAM.
3. If you’re concerned about dust and dirt, you could just put a rubber plug in the headphone jack so the rest of us don’t have to suffer from the loss of the headphone jack.
4. Noise-cancelling headphones don’t improve audio quality, removing “noise” from audio output from smartphones with bad DACs. Noise-cancelling headphones attempt to eliminate noise around you, like road noise and people talking. People don’t use wireless headphones as much as you think. Wired headphones still have their place - they work, they always work, and they don’t need to be charged. I’m also not very keen on having a Bluetooth radio up to my head all day, irradiating my skull.
 
"The Verge's Nilay Patel has called the move 'user-hostile and stupid', while Steve Streza...said the decision is good for Apple but bad for the consumer."

Whiners. People said the same thing when Apple switched from the 30-pin connector to Lightning. Does anyone still regret that move? I know I don't.

Well, except for all the car adapters that are now useless and no lightning adapter that charges and outputs audio to car systems ever came out, except for the original 9" 30pin to Lightning adapter, a real POS solution.

I don't regret going to the smaller connector. But seriously I don't think Apple cares about that, probably more on greater profits from a proprietary connector. They should have been the first on the scene with USB-C connector instead of Lightning. In the past they pushed emerging standard connections.

And yeah, I'm really pissed off that something that does more than just driving headphones is being removed FOR NO GOOD REASON. Orphaning microphones, credit card readers, wind meters, and yes external audio devices is so NOT CUSTOMER FOCUSED that I probably will force my family off of iPhones.
 
Well, except for all the car adapters that are now useless and no lightning adapter that charges and outputs audio to car systems ever came out, except for the original 9" 30pin to Lightning adapter, a real POS solution.

I don't regret going to the smaller connector. But seriously I don't think Apple cares about that, probably more on greater profits from a proprietary connector. They should have been the first on the scene with USB-C connector instead of Lightning. In the past they pushed emerging standard connections.

And yeah, I'm really pissed off that something that does more than just driving headphones is being removed FOR NO GOOD REASON. Orphaning microphones, credit card readers, wind meters, and yes external audio devices is so NOT CUSTOMER FOCUSED that I probably will force my family off of iPhones.

Oh not this FUD again. And just what makes you think the adapters won't accomodate your microphones, credit card readers, and wind meters?

So you'll move your family from iPhones to what when Android flagships remove the headphone jack within a year of Apple doing it? Whether it's USBc or Lightning you're still going to need adapters, or new native compatible accessories. The headphone jack is already going away and Apple isn't the first major phone maker to do it -- or is that too much of an inconvenient truth for you to acknowledge?
 
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Even if USB-C does become the digital audio standard in just a few more years, it's still not going to replace the 3.5mm connector on everything else. So people are still going to need adapters, which means it doesn't matter whether it's USB-C or Lightning, for many, many more years..
Maybe you should do some reading. USB-C will support analog audio output, so it's a truly universal port for audio output.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273...-cables-to-connect-headsets-to-mobile-devices
 
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Hold on- do you think that the entire audio industry (beyond phones) is going to dump 3.5mm for Lightning? Why?
It has to start somewhere. Or let me ask you this.

How long do you think we should keep 3.5mm jack? Another 20 years? 2? 5? The switch to better technology has to happen someday and there will be people saying its not a good time now etc. I think 3.5mm lived for way too long than it should and its time to more to something more compact, more capable and definitely digital. :D
 
It has to start somewhere. Or let me ask you this.

How long do you think we should keep 3.5mm jack? Another 20 years? 2? 5? The switch to better technology has to happen someday and there will be people saying its not a good time now etc. I think 3.5mm lived for way too long than it should and its time to more to something more compact, more capable and definitely digital. :D

You're making the assumption that something is wrong with 3.5 mm. There is nothing wrong with this tech, it works and it works without problems. The only issues with 3.5 mm is it's age and the fact that Apple can't monetize it's use.

This is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. It's change for ONLY change's sake. What's next? Is Apple going to remove the steering wheel in their new car for some piece of buggy new tech? Maybe, and people like you will shout their praises. LOL
 
Maybe you should do some reading. USB-C will support analog audio output, so it's a truly universal port for audio output.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10273...-cables-to-connect-headsets-to-mobile-devices

Old news.

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/04/28/intel-replace-headphone-jack-usb-c-audio/

And not your point. Lightning will also support analogue audio, as you pointed out. But as I read your previous post, you proposed analogue output via lightning was just a stopgap measure until everything transitions to digital via a universal USB-C connector.

Also, did you read the article you linked to? When discussing the sideband audio spec Intel is working on, the word "should" is used a lot -- meaning it's not a fully spec'd-out solution yet, but one proposed to take advantage of a feature of USB-C that can be used to pass analogue audio, and should work.

But that's a long way from an audio standard that's ready to hit the shelves and dominate the market in two years forcing Apple to switch from Lightning out of consumer demand for USBc audio, especially when the downside is that over 500 million of Apple's customers will have to once again ditch all of their charging cables and accessories to accomodate the change for no good reason. On top of that, they'd also have to use an adapter with their analogue headphones anyway!
 
"The Verge's Nilay Patel has called the move 'user-hostile and stupid', while Steve Streza...said the decision is good for Apple but bad for the consumer."

Whiners. People said the same thing when Apple switched from the 30-pin connector to Lightning. Does anyone still regret that move? I know I don't.

Argumentation fallacy. The 30-pin replacement was a faster and smaller Lightning cable which was an improvement. Whereas with the removal of the 3.5 jack, you now need to buy an adapter (adding hardware needlessly) to connect a universal device...! It's creating a 'solution' to a problem that didn't exist in the first place.
 
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Old news.

https://www.macrumors.com/2016/04/28/intel-replace-headphone-jack-usb-c-audio/

And not your point. Lightning will also support analogue audio, as you pointed out. But as I read your previous post, you proposed analogue output via lightning was just a stopgap measure until everything transitions to digital via a universal USB-C connector.
So now you're changing your story and say that USB-C isn't any better than Lightning because Lightning can also support analog audio? Haven't you been arguing for the last several days that Apple won't/can't put analog audio over the Lightning port and that a digital-only Lightning port will remain in use for several more years?

In any case, if you go back several months here on MacRumors you'll find that I proposed that Apple should keep the 3.5mm headphone jack for another year until they could make a clean transition to USB-C. Since it now appears that the iPhone 7 will remove the headphone jack one can only wonder how they are going to handle this transition. If they aren't going to switch to USB-C (this year) then the only reasonably good solution might be to put analog audio out over the Lightning port and then switch to USB-C in another year or two.

This would allow people to continue to use their analog audio devices by adding just a "cheap" Lightning-to-3.5mm audio dongle. Then, when Apple makes the switch to USB-C (which in my opinion will happen pretty soon on the iOS devices, perhaps iPhone 8, maybe -- hopefully -- iPhone 7) they could offer the same type of adapter and join the rest of the mobile industry to support the next generation standard, which will be USB-C.
 
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1. Yeah, I know about NVME. But there’s no real-world difference between SATA and NVMe. The only time you’ll notice a difference is when you’re editing or rendering video, or loading a game. Otherwise, there’s no noticeable difference between SATA and NVMe. If Apple had used a standard M.2 connector, Solid State Drive upgrades would be easily affordable. But Apple’s custom NVMe connector makes Solid State Drive upgrades prohibitively expensive.
So there's a noticeable difference between SATA and NVMe, you just don't feel it's very important.


. RAM was never considered non-user replaceable. Apple even included instructions for upgrading RAM back when they made Macs with upgradeable RAM.
I don't like the soldering either. The iMac did have instructions, maybe the mac mini too.. but i don't think they considered it replaceable by the user in mbp etc.

3. If you’re concerned about dust and dirt, you could just put a rubber plug in the headphone jack so the rest of us don’t have to suffer from the loss of the headphone jack.
The rest of you should just buy an adaptor. I don't have to suffer for you demands. Sarcasm aside: the majority (probably) woudln't mind, if they can use the headphones included. Speculation on my side; i'd guess apple has better usage data.

4. Noise-cancelling headphones don’t improve audio quality, removing “noise” from audio output from smartphones with bad DACs. Noise-cancelling headphones attempt to eliminate noise around you, like road noise and people talking.
I know, i own a pair. I don't see you r point, but for me, if the music sounds good, it's good. If i want more perfection in reproduction, i need more than headphones. Well built speakers, a room with a good sound profile, etc.. A phone is not an audiophile's best source.

People don’t use wireless headphones as much as you think. Wired headphones still have their place - they work, they always work, and they don’t need to be charged.
I knowl; they do. But they're annoying too. They have a wire, you have to be careful.. obvious things. And you still get to use them, with an adapter. Audioplug's bigger version needs that too, so it's not that far fetched (esp for an audio connoisseur, they use those already)

I’m also not very keen on having a Bluetooth radio up to my head all day, irradiating my skull.
That's just irrational. Your usage of aa phone to play music is contradicting your fear too.
 
So now you're changing your story and say that USB-C isn't any better than Lightning because Lightning can also support analog audio? Haven't you been arguing for the last several days that Apple won't/can't put analog audio over the Lightning port and that a digital-only Lightning port will remain in use for several more years?

In any case, if you go back several months here on MacRumors you'll find that I proposed that Apple should keep the 3.5mm headphone jack for another year until they could make a clean transition to USB-C. Since it now appears that the iPhone 7 will remove the headphone jack one can only wonder how they are going to handle this transition. If they aren't going to switch to USB-C (this year) then the only reasonably good solution might be to put analog audio out over the Lightning port and then switch to USB-C in another year or two.

This would allow people to continue to use their analog audio devices by adding just a "cheap" Lightning-to-3.5mm audio dongle. Then, when Apple makes the switch to USB-C (which in my opinion will happen pretty soon on the iOS devices, perhaps iPhone 8, maybe -- hopefully -- iPhone 7) they could offer the same type of adapter.

I've been pretty clear and consistent on my view since this issue began last year. I don't agree with you at all, and have explained why. So I believe we have come to the point where we must agree to disagree and move on.
 
It has to start somewhere. Or let me ask you this.

How long do you think we should keep 3.5mm jack? Another 20 years? 2? 5? The switch to better technology has to happen someday and there will be people saying its not a good time now etc. I think 3.5mm lived for way too long than it should and its time to more to something more compact, more capable and definitely digital. :D

The audio industry is not about to change. As much manipulation as happens in digital format, the last step before going to the speakers is convert to analog. The 1/4" connector on larger gear, and the 3.5mm on smaller, is the way to output the same analog signal to headphones. That connector is not gong anywhere in the professional equipment.
 
With next years version of the iPhone we will get a meticulously crafted adaptor that is exceptionally thin and light weight.
 
screw off Apple.

I agree.

Great another adapter. All of the millions of people who invested in standard headphones will need an adapter. The new lightening headphone users that want to use their headphones with existing macs will need ANOTHER adapter. What a joke.

If Apple plans on including a lightening connection in all their products I could see it. How reasonable is it to assume a company whose current products are a generation behind internally, will somehow implement a uniform standard across their entire product line? For a company that promotes ease of use from one device to the next, seems like they are going the other direction.
 
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You're making the assumption that something is wrong with 3.5 mm. There is nothing wrong with this tech, it works and it works without problems. The only issues with 3.5 mm is it's age and the fact that Apple can't monetize it's use.
Sorry. The issue wth the 3.5mm jack is the unnecessary space it takes inside the device. The same functionality can be had in the existing lightning plug, so remove the older technology and use the space for something else.
 
I agree.

Great another adapter. All of the millions of people who invested in standard headphones will need an adapter. The new lightening headphone users that want to use their headphones with existing macs will need ANOTHER adapter. What a joke.

If Apple plans on including a lightening connection in all their products I could see it. How reasonable is it to assume a company whose current products are a generation behind internally, will somehow implement a uniform standard across their entire product line? For a company that promotes ease of use from one device to the next, seems like they are going the other direction.

Including everyone that bought Beats headphones! You think they won't be pissed off??
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Sorry. The issue wth the 3.5mm jack is the unnecessary space it takes inside the device. The same functionality can be had in the existing lightning plug, so remove the older technology and use the space for something else.

Ok, but how can I listen using the lighting port AND charge my device at the same time? What's that you say? An adapter? Oh, great so now I have to carry around a separate device that's going to be larger than the space the 3.5 jack would have taken up inside the phone in the first place? Do you see how farcical your argument is?
 
I agree.

Great another adapter. All of the millions of people who invested in standard headphones will need an adapter. The new lightening headphone users that want to use their headphones with existing macs will need ANOTHER adapter. What a joke.

If Apple plans on including a lightening connection in all their products I could see it. How reasonable is it to assume a company whose current products are a generation behind internally, will somehow implement a uniform standard across their entire product line? For a company that promotes ease of use from one device to the next, seems like they are going the other direction.

I'm sure people had the same thought when Apple got rid of the Floppy drive and the CD drive...now they are getting rid of the headphone jack...it's not that big of deal. People will adapt just like they have in the past. I'm sure people freaked out when they had to get an adapter when the headphone jack standard went from 1/4 stereo to 3.5mm headphone jack. Times change and so do the way we sue products. Personally, I have not used the headphone jack for anything on any of my iDevices since the iPhone 5S was released because my Bluetooth headset is better for music and I also have an iPhone that works great. Some people will miss thee headphone jack, but a lot less people then you think.
 
Including everyone that bought Beats headphones! You think they won't be pissed off??
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Ok, but how can I listen using the lighting port AND charge my device at the same time? What's that you say? An adapter? Oh, great so now I have to carry around a separate device that's going to be larger than the space the 3.5 jack would have taken up inside the phone in the first place? Do you see how farcical your argument is?
There in nothing farcical in my argument.

Apple is under no obligation to support your existing peripherals. They clearly killed an entire range of peripherals with the change to the lightning plug. The world survived.

If you wish to use your old 3.5mm headphones and charge at the same time, you will have an adapter option. The world doesn't end, and Apple gets more space INSIDE the device, just as I stated.

It's also entirely possible we will see inductive charging, which could do away with even the lightning adapter - though I doubt we will see both changes in the same release.

I've not used wired headphones for several years with my phone or iPad, so it doesn't impact me at all.
 
Sorry. The issue wth the 3.5mm jack is the unnecessary space it takes inside the device. The same functionality can be had in the existing lightning plug, so remove the older technology and use the space for something else.

Nope! I don't accept that argument. The 3.5 mm tech has existed in an iPhone or iPod for nearly 15 years (this tech goes back over a hundred years if you include non Apple products). It works so good that bugs simply don't exist. The tech is so solid that EVERYONE (from seniors to toddlers, from consumers to professionals) use it everyday without issue.

If Lightning was better the consumer would have already adopted it considering Lightning headphones have been available for quite some time now. The consumer has spoken, Lightning audio is not better and definitely not more convenient.

If Bluetooth audio was better for headphones then the consumer would have already spoken considering the fact that Bluetooth headphones have been available for quite some time. The fact is the consumer has no need for Lightning or Bluetooth headphones at this stage of the game because both technologies do not offer an experience that bests what the 3.5 mm tech brings to the table.

Bluetooth works for portable speaker systems but that convenience doesn't translate to headphones. I know Apple bet a billion dollars on Beats headphones in the hopes that Lightning and Bluetooth would prevail but so far the consumer doesn't want or need the refundsnt tech that Apple is trying to strong arm us into using. As a result, Apple chooses to coerce the use of Lightning and Bluetooth devices by removing an industry standard that simply works without issues. They are doing so for profiteering reasons only.

Here's how I would like to see Apple approach this issue.

Keep the 3.5 mm option while offering a well thought out and implemented version of Lightning and Bluetooth. I expect Apple to WIN the consumer over by engineering outstanding tech rather than eliminating a jack that is so common it's like the steering wheel in a car. Eliminating a standard jack like the 3.5 mm screams of either greed or fear. Greed if they are solely doing it for profiteering reasons or fear of the realization that their idiotic purchase of Beats headphones won't turn into the cash cow they envisioned.

I believe this move to be purely for profiteering reasons. In the past, Apple used to create awesome tech first, then reap the benefits of that tech with soaring profits (tech first, profit second). Today, it's my opinion that Apple places profits first and tech second. All of their recent decisions support this theory. Apple has officially turned into a typical money grubbing corporation.
 
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There in nothing farcical in my argument.

Apple is under no obligation to support your existing peripherals. They clearly killed an entire range of peripherals with the change to the lightning plug. The world survived.

If you wish to use your old 3.5mm headphones and charge at the same time, you will have an adapter option. The world doesn't end, and Apple gets more space INSIDE the device, just as I stated.

It's also entirely possible we will see inductive charging, which could do away with even the lightning adapter - though I doubt we will see both changes in the same release.

I've not used wired headphones for several years with my phone or iPad, so it doesn't impact me at all.

Frankly this meme making the rounds on the internet that people won't be able to charge their iPhones and listen at the same time is one of the most ridiculous arguments that keeps cropping up. There's no point in debating with these people -- they're either delusional, or fanatics intent on spreading FUD. I've made the mistake of engaging some and despite dispelling this particular myth, they continue to lead with this argument in every subsequent post.

If a customer needs to listen and charge at the same time, they don't need a bulky adapter. They buy the appropriate cable for their headphones, with a Lightning pass through port, either in the actual connector itself thus taking up no more room, or in the headphone set itself -- Beats has a 2nd 3.5mm headphone jack built-in to allow your friends to daisy chain and listen to music with you (without requiring an extra splitter). A lightning port in the headphones will allow the same thing, while also passing through the charge to the iPhone using the same cable you're already carrying. And yes, there's the rumored smart connector and contactless charging rumor.

The most frustrating thing about these trollish comments is that they proceed from the conclusion that Apple hasn't even considered these issues, and they're the first ones to realize the potential problems, yet have not spent even a minute on their own thinking about how it might easily be solved, much less even acknowledging the simple solutions like these presented to them.

My advice to you? Beware of the trolls and don't feed them.
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Sorry. The issue wth the 3.5mm jack is the unnecessary space it takes inside the device. The same functionality can be had in the existing lightning plug, so remove the older technology and use the space for something else.

I do hope this is the primary case. I feel the announcement by Intel to push USBc audio standards on mobile is an indication that the entire mobile phone industry is faced with this dilemma, since Apple going it alone would be complete stupidity and platform suicide at this juncture, which is why the "greedy Apple" meme is so tiresome. New technologies, improved features, and smaller lighter phones are in everyone's benefit. Will Apple profit more than other by going down this path? Sure. But they won't be going it alone, for that flawed reason.

That said, the rumor about the dual speakers concerns me. Replacing the 3.5mm Jack now, only to accomodate dual speakers, and nothing else of substance I feel would be a huge mistake and certainly turn me against this move. We shall see what Apple ultimately does here, however I'm optimistic that we're going to see the next phone introduce a few surprises that better utilize the internal space gained by the elimination of the headphone jack. If not, well then I'll have to add my voice to the criticism of its removal, despite otherwise being in favor of the benefits it provides everyone in the long term, as I believe it would be a foolhardy move that would only hurt them in the short term.
 
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You're making the assumption that something is wrong with 3.5 mm. There is nothing wrong with this tech, it works and it works without problems. The only issues with 3.5 mm is it's age and the fact that Apple can't monetize it's use.

This is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. It's change for ONLY change's sake. What's next? Is Apple going to remove the steering wheel in their new car for some piece of buggy new tech? Maybe, and people like you will shout their praises. LOL
Apple makes a fortune off of fixing things that aren't broken, and breaking things that work fine.
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If Lightning was better the consumer would have already adopted it considering Lightning headphones have been available for quite some time now. The consumer has spoken, Lightning audio is not better and definitely not more convenient.
They make Lightning Headphones?

Now that I know that, I can comfortably go on ignoring them.
 
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