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The DAC is not necessarily the issue in the iPhone. The DSP & Amp are far more important for producing high quality sound then the DAC in this case. That is not to say that the DAC cannot be improved.

DSP is mostly software, and also only needed when working with bad speakers. DSP makes bad speakers sound less bad. DSP will not make good speakers sound better. Likewise, an Amp can never make something sound better. The best Amp does the least to alter the sound signal. A bad Amp introduces lots of noise or alters the signal in some way. So, in terms of producing high-quality sound, the DAC is what matters. The quality of the Amp and the use of DSP can only make those things worse - to the extent they are necessary, they are best if they alter the signal as little as possible.
 
DSP is mostly software, and also only needed when working with bad speakers. DSP makes bad speakers sound less bad. DSP will not make good speakers sound better. Likewise, an Amp can never make something sound better. The best Amp does the least to alter the sound signal. A bad Amp introduces lots of noise or alters the signal in some way. So, in terms of producing high-quality sound, the DAC is what matters. The quality of the Amp and the use of DSP can only make those things worse - to the extent they are necessary, they are best if they alter the signal as little as possible.

That is my point. Assuming the DAC is of decent quality, the amp, and it's output will determine how the signal from the DAC is presented. The thing that can be changed that will most improve the output from a decent DAC is the amp. Apple's amp is limited by size and power, although it is otherwise a decent amp, and the resulting sound from the DAC is presented as well as it can be, depending on what's plugged into it. There can be better amps, than Apple uses, which can be customized to the speaker output, that will sound better than Apple's generic compromise from their built-in amp. And taking that signal directly from the DAC, bypassing the internal amp, allows the full quality of the signal to be processed directly by a higher quality, better matched amp in the headphone. Improving the quality of the DAC by customizing it in the headphone will only offer degrees of improvement over Apple's own. So you can say the Apple amp is worse than some other amp, or you can say some other amp is better. It's the same argument.
 
That is my point. Assuming the DAC is of decent quality, the amp, and it's output will determine how the signal from the DAC is presented. The thing that can be changed that will most improve the output from a decent DAC is the amp. Apple's amp is limited by size and power, although it is otherwise a decent amp, and the resulting sound from the DAC is presented as well as it can be, depending on what's plugged into it. There can be better amps, than Apple uses, which can be customized to the speaker output, that will sound better than Apple's generic compromise from their built-in amp. And taking that signal directly from the DAC, bypassing the internal amp, allows the full quality of the signal to be processed directly by a higher quality, better matched amp in the headphone. Improving the quality of the DAC by customizing it in the headphone will only offer degrees of improvement over Apple's own. So you can say the Apple amp is worse than some other amp, or you can say some other amp is better. It's the same argument.

I'm not sure you get my point actually. That sentence I bolded above is not correct. An amp, no matter what, will never ever improve the output from any DAC.

Let's say it's possible to rate quality 1-100, and a given DAC outputs sound at quality 75. A great amp will change that to 74. A decent amp will change that to 65. A bad amp will change that to 40. And so on... The point is, the best possible amp will do as little as possible to change the sound.

What does an amp does? It boosts the amount of power in the analog signal. Why do we want more power? Bigger speakers and typically better speakers have a higher impedance, which means they require more power to move the diaphragm. Matching the correct amount of power to the impedance of a speaker optimizes the dynamic response. Too much power is as bad or worse than not enough power - it must be matched. The trouble is that the circuits used to boost power can often introduce noise into the signal. The act of boosting the power can also lose (average out) parts of the signal that are very small. A good amp will have minimal noise and be sensitive enough that it does not erase any of the signal. An amp cannot ever output a signal which is better than the signal that is input into it. A theoretical perfect amp would output a signal of equal quality to the input signal, but those don't exist. The best amp designs are close though. But to be clear - it will not "improve the output from a DAC."

To the extent audiophiles want to bypass Apple's amp, they can already do that today. Most of them go further though. They bypass Apple's DAC and amp. They get at the digital signal, and run it through their own DAC and amp that is matched to their headphones. This does result in a higher quality sound. The reason it is better is because the components they use screw up the signal less.
 
I'm not sure you get my point actually. That sentence I bolded above is not correct. An amp, no matter what, will never ever improve the output from any DAC.

Let's say it's possible to rate quality 1-100, and a given DAC outputs sound at quality 75. A great amp will change that to 74. A decent amp will change that to 65. A bad amp will change that to 40. And so on... The point is, the best possible amp will do as little as possible to change the sound.

What does an amp does? It boosts the amount of power in the analog signal. Why do we want more power? Bigger speakers and typically better speakers have a higher impedance, which means they require more power to move the diaphragm. Matching the correct amount of power to the impedance of a speaker optimizes the dynamic response. Too much power is as bad or worse than not enough power - it must be matched. The trouble is that the circuits used to boost power can often introduce noise into the signal. The act of boosting the power can also lose (average out) parts of the signal that are very small. A good amp will have minimal noise and be sensitive enough that it does not erase any of the signal. An amp cannot ever output a signal which is better than the signal that is input into it. A theoretical perfect amp would output a signal of equal quality to the input signal, but those don't exist. The best amp designs are close though. But to be clear - it will not "improve the output from a DAC."

To the extent audiophiles want to bypass Apple's amp, they can already do that today. Most of them go further though. They bypass Apple's DAC and amp. They get at the digital signal, and run it through their own DAC and amp that is matched to their headphones. This does result in a higher quality sound. The reason it is better is because the components they use screw up the signal less.

Semantics. The amp is not going to improve a bad DAC. My point was with respect to Apple's DAC, which is quite good. The weak link is Apple's Amp, for which the signal being passed by the DAC is actually better than what Apple's amp presents. So a better amp lets us hear the full quality of the signal from the DAC. I do get what you're saying.
 
Semantics. The amp is not going to improve a bad DAC. My point was with respect to Apple's DAC, which is quite good. The weak link is Apple's Amp, for which the signal being passed by the DAC is actually better than what Apple's amp presents. So a better amp lets us hear the full quality of the signal from the DAC. I do get what you're saying.

So put a better amp in the phone. Don't force a potentially worse DAC, because by feeding a digital signal to the Lightning port, you are bypassing Apple's DAC.
 
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What does an amp does? It boosts the amount of power in the analog signal. Why do we want more power? Bigger speakers and typically better speakers have a higher impedance, which means they require more power to move the diaphragm. Matching the correct amount of power to the impedance of a speaker optimizes the dynamic response. Too much power is as bad or worse than not enough power - it must be matched.
There is way more to it than that. A key characteristic of a headphone amp is the output impedance. This not only determines its capability to drive the headphones, but may also impact the audio in other ways. For example, higher output impedance means more damping, which can make the bass sound muddy. Output impedance also varies with the frequency of the audio, which can have a significant impact on the frequency response of the amp/headphone system if the impedance is high enough.

The previous poster is right: The amp is far more likely to be the quality bottleneck in a phone than the DAC these days. The limited power supply in small mobile devices also limits what you can do with the amp. On the other hand, even cheap off-the-shelf DAC chips are very good these days, with noise levels that would have been considered appropriate for high end equipment just 10 years ago.
 
There is way more to it than that. A key characteristic of a headphone amp is the output impedance. This not only determines its capability to drive the headphones, but may also impact the audio in other ways. For example, higher output impedance means more damping, which can make the bass sound muddy. Output impedance also varies with the frequency of the audio, which can have a significant impact on the frequency response of the amp/headphone system if the impedance is high enough.

The previous poster is right: The amp is far more likely to be the quality bottleneck in a phone than the DAC these days. The limited power supply in small mobile devices also limits what you can do with the amp. On the other hand, even cheap off-the-shelf DAC chips are very good these days, with noise levels that would have been considered high end just 10 years ago.

I agree that the amp is the quality bottleneck in mobile devices. It is pretty much always the bottle neck. Even the best amp is a bottle neck.

I took issue with the statements that a good amp and DSP can somehow make the sound quality better than how it comes out from the DAC - it can't. As you said, amps affect the signal; sometimes in desirable ways and sometimes in undesirable ways. Usually the goal is to mess with the signal as little as possible.

It is a nuanced thing to take issue with, but that's the mood i'm in :p
 
Sure, people back then did say that. But don't lump me in with them. I did not object to any of the above.

I welcomed the removal of the floppy disk, and in fact had stopped installing floppy disks in my Windows PCs that same year. Indeed, the only thing I had used floppy disks for the few years leading up to that was booting the Windows installer, they were useless for everything else. By then, CD-drive booting was possible anyway, so getting rid of floppy was no issue. I cautiously embraced the removal of the CD/DVD drive. You can look up my posts in this forum from back then. I agreed with the decision, but was upset the external superdrive cost so much. I said I would set aside $50 (figuratively, in my mind) to buy a generic USB DVD drive at Microcenter or Best Buy, so when I need it I can immediately go get one. Never needed one. I welcomed the lightning cable fully, and again you look this up, defending it and applauded the move a lot on this forum.

None of those things are similar. First, a good amount of people have anywhere from $50-$500 or more in perfectly good audio gear that relies on the 3.5mm jack. Nobody had that much money invested in floppy disks, cd-roms, or 30-pin cables. Second, as I said before, all of those standards were pretty clearly obsolete by the point Apple removed them. There is nothing obsolete about the 3.5mm audio standard; age alone does not lead to being obsolete, a competing better alternative that is being adopted does, which there is none.

Third, in response to your comment about audio quality, that is nonsense. There is no inherent good or bad audio quality in the 3.5mm jack. It is just a jack, just a way to physically connect wires, and it is for analog audio. The sound quality is determined by the headphones, and by the DAC. If Apple wants to, they can put in a better DAC into the iPhone. If a user wants to, they can buy better headphones. By making lightning headphones, Apple is forcing headphones to have a built-in DAC of their own (so now you are essentially carrying 2 DACs, one built-in to the iPhone, and one built-in to your headphones), and that second DAC is powered by the iPhone's battery. The "quality" of the analog connection between the second DAC and the actual speakers in the headphones will be no better or worse than the 3.5mm connectors we have today.

1. They are welcome to try to profit from this. I agree with the crowd that says it is hostile. They are cashing out some of their brand loyalty and goodwill though. I think the brand loyalty and goodwill is worth more than the increased headphones profit they get. It's a bad deal.

2. No, this will hurt their brand. It is indisputably hostile to users. They are essentially saying: "those headphones we sold you last week, they're no good anymore. Those headphones you use on both your mac and iphone, they won't work on your iphone anymore."

I also don't think you understand what the 3.5mm jack is. It is literally just a physical connection between wires for analog audio. For that, it has been fantastic. For all audio, eventually it has to be converted to to analog because speakers are analog. Whatever new system Apple comes up with will not have better sound quality than 3.5mm because 3.5mm has nothing to do with sound quality.


Oh, I disagree on your argument that "no one had invested much in CD's and DVD's." Lots of people had hundreds of CDs and DVDs (which equates to thousands of dollars worth of investment) and Apple removed it from the MacBook Air anyway. Perhaps you didn't, but many (such as my parents) did. They moved on, just like we'll all move on from the headphone jack eventually. It's not similar technology, but removing older technologies from their products before everyone else is a very Apple thing to do, whether we as individuals like it or not.

And MacRumors seems to disagree with you that there can't be a significant audio benefit from switching to Lightning- as you rightly point out, it'll mean the DAC will have to be in the headphones or cable, but they argue that this can result in much better audio: https://www.macrumors.com/2016/06/08/iphone-7-audiophile-lightning-headphones/

"The review continues in a breakdown of general arguments for using Lightning for serious listening enjoyment, the first being better hi-fi portability. This is based on the idea that the integrated smartphone DACs and amps which traditional 3.5mm jack headphones rely on are inferior to dedicated external components."

Now this doesn't mean every single headphone ever made to be used with a Lightning connector is going to be better than every single headphone ever made to be used with the 3.5mm jack. But I think Apple genuinely has an opportunity here to improve the listening experience. It's too early to say how effectively they'll capitalize on it (will the phone come with an adapter, what will the EarPods that come with the phone be like, will Apple's marketing be directed toward wireless headphones, etc). But I think it's also too early to say "Apple is screwing the customer." Just like it was too early to say that when they "screwed the customer" with floppy drive removal, disc drive removal, 30 pin removal, Ethernet removal, or whatever the new complaint of the week is about Apple products.

Even if you weren't bothered by every other feature removal Apple has done and are only bothered by this one, as you say, it's the same general thought process: people say what Apple's doing "won't work," "won't catch on," or "will make them lose all their customers." None of those have been the case so far, and I kind of doubt it will be the case this time.

What I would agree on is that I'd like to see Apple switch to USB-C across their entire product line and use that instead of Lightning for this headphone shift- then you don't have the proprietary headphone issue people are worried about. I guess we'll have to see.
 
The DAC is not necessarily the issue in the iPhone. The DSP & Amp are far more important for producing high quality sound then the DAC in this case. That is not to say that the DAC cannot be improved.
When I want better audio from my iPhone, I can just plug in my Sound Blaster E1.
 
The DAC is not necessarily the issue in the iPhone. The DSP & Amp are far more important for producing high quality sound then the DAC in this case. That is not to say that the DAC cannot be improved.

Ken Rockwell's testing seems to indicate that the amp has a sufficient source impedance to drive pretty much any headphones - certainly those a typical user might have. The resulting output at the 3.5mm jack appears to be very, very good.

Unless an external DAC integrated into headphones is performing some audio frequency response or phase shift buggery to nullify problems with the headphone drivers, I suspect we're all going to be sold the emperors new clothes here.

BTW: I'm not against performing some audio frequency response or phase shift buggery to nullify problems with the headphone drivers, I'm just saying, "Dear bloggers/pundits, don't tell us your product is awesome and that the iPhone 6 DAC is poor without some evidence."
 
The thing is, whether you want it to be so or not, the 3.5mm jack is going to disappear. You can hold out for a period of time, maybe even a few years, but eventually, you'll have issues (such as your existing headphones breaking) and need to move on.

Right, because aircraft are going to replace all their 3.5mm jacks. And professional audio equipment is going to drop 3.5mm / 6.3mm jacks. And ATM machines - they often have 3.5mm jacks for audio interfaces for the partially sighted.

These things are going to be around for a long, long time - and have far more ubiquity than just mobile phones.

That's without taking into account there not being one standard for non-3.5 / 6.3 connectors - Apple uses lightning, some new Androids have usb-c, the majority of others are micro-USB.

The lack of a single standard that all manufacturers use is a single issue.

Plus, non-3.5mm headphones will always be more expensive than their 3.5mm counterparts - lightning connectors cost more, having dacs and other circuitry on board costs more.

Lightning / USB-C has a potential benefit for noise cancelling headphones being able to draw power from the device - I might be tempted to go that route specifically for that purpose (but there is still the issue of non-standard connectors - I'm not wedded to one particular manufacturer of phones, and I don't want to be limited by the accessories that I've bought).

Beyond that, you would be crazy to spend large amounts of money on high quality headphones (which I do) that can't be used in a wider context. I would sooner buy a 3.5mm headphone, and simply use an adaptor / external dac if it absolutely came to that.

But there is no good reason for getting rid of the standard connector - you don't need to do it for waterproofing, you don't need to do it to save money, you don't need to do it to save weight, you don't need to do it make the device thinner - hell, the devices are already more than thin enough, and many would benefit from being a little thicker with better battery life.

And it doesn't stop people using BT / lightning / usb-c headphones if they want to. It is just a move to extract more money from consumers, and to create another fake barrier to disuade them from changing manufacturers.

As others have noted, these forward progress shifts have happened before and will continue to happen. Once you move on with the horrible thing that removing the 3.5mm port is, you'll end up complaining about the next thing Apple (or fill in the name of any other manufacturer) deletes because something better has taken its place.

Except, as I said, this isn't just about a phone accessory, in the same way that we would only use floppy disks with PC/Mac, etc. They have a ubiquity across an enormous range of devices, and none of those are going to USB-C/Lightning, especially while there is no single, cheap standard.

Instead, you might as well embrace the potential for keeping headphones with any type of wired jack, because that is the next shift - going wireless. There are already great sounding BT headphones out there (with AptX codec) and going wire-free is such a huge positive shift, people will wonder how they ever lived with wired headphones.

I've already embraced wireless - I usually use a bluetooth headset when out walking listening to podcasts whilst walking. They are great. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise the limitations of bluetooth headsets - with battery life and recharge times, or that I'm willing to sacrifice a 3.5mm port for NO benefit, even if I rarely use it - because I do still need it.
 
Right, because aircraft are going to replace all their 3.5mm jacks. And professional audio equipment is going to drop 3.5mm / 6.3mm jacks. And ATM machines - they often have 3.5mm jacks for audio interfaces for the partially sighted.

These things are going to be around for a long, long time - and have far more ubiquity than just mobile phones.

That's without taking into account there not being one standard for non-3.5 / 6.3 connectors - Apple uses lightning, some new Androids have usb-c, the majority of others are micro-USB.

The lack of a single standard that all manufacturers use is a single issue.

Plus, non-3.5mm headphones will always be more expensive than their 3.5mm counterparts - lightning connectors cost more, having dacs and other circuitry on board costs more.

Lightning / USB-C has a potential benefit for noise cancelling headphones being able to draw power from the device - I might be tempted to go that route specifically for that purpose (but there is still the issue of non-standard connectors - I'm not wedded to one particular manufacturer of phones, and I don't want to be limited by the accessories that I've bought).

Beyond that, you would be crazy to spend large amounts of money on high quality headphones (which I do) that can't be used in a wider context. I would sooner buy a 3.5mm headphone, and simply use an adaptor / external dac if it absolutely came to that.

But there is no good reason for getting rid of the standard connector - you don't need to do it for waterproofing, you don't need to do it to save money, you don't need to do it to save weight, you don't need to do it make the device thinner - hell, the devices are already more than thin enough, and many would benefit from being a little thicker with better battery life.

And it doesn't stop people using BT / lightning / usb-c headphones if they want to. It is just a move to extract more money from consumers, and to create another fake barrier to disuade them from changing manufacturers.

Except, as I said, this isn't just about a phone accessory, in the same way that we would only use floppy disks with PC/Mac, etc. They have a ubiquity across an enormous range of devices, and none of those are going to USB-C/Lightning, especially while there is no single, cheap standard.

I've already embraced wireless - I usually use a bluetooth headset when out walking listening to podcasts whilst walking. They are great. That doesn't mean that I don't recognise the limitations of bluetooth headsets - with battery life and recharge times, or that I'm willing to sacrifice a 3.5mm port for NO benefit, even if I rarely use it - because I do still need it.

You must be too young to remember that airlines have already switch their proprietary headphone jacks over the period of a decade not too long ago. In fact some older planes still have them. Now airlines are adding USB, after a brief flirtation with AC power (it too various incompatible standards). So while they are unlikely to remove the 3.5mm Jack, they will likely all add USB, with which any smart headphone will attach. Are airlines going to switch from USB-A to USBc ports? Eventually, especially is USBc becomes a standard. And eventually, just like those old proprietary "airline" headphone connectors, they will go away in favor of digital alternatives. But passengers are going to have to carry adapters just to charge their phones. And if passengers forget, chances are a friendly neighbor can accomodate, or I'm sure the airlines will be happy to rent you one, just like they always have and still do now if you leave your headphones at home.

Professional audio is a pointless example. For starters 3.5mm is not a professional audio connection. 1/4" and 1/8" TRS connectors are. 3.5mm is a consumer standard, which pro audio gear tends to accomodate along with XLR, and the other dominant standards. And that's what pro gear tends to do, accommodate every standard needed. And they have more than enough room to do it as well. They're also starting to have USB interfaces well. And one thing that's always been true with audio equipment, people always need adapters.

Next up, ATMs. ATMs will be a thing of the past in a few years as digital payment systems take off. I haven't used an ATM in years. And they are giant hulking machines that can accommodate whatever anyone needs. To the extent someone needs to actually use such an antiquated device, it will accomodate their needs. In fact there's room to add a digital and a wireless interface if anyone thinks that's necessary.

The fact that 3.5mm Jack won't necessarily be removed from equipment means nothing as far as adoption of a new standard. But retaining it simply to give those who don't want to change the option, when there are likely other considerations for consumer mobile devices, is pointless.

You have a cynical, jaded bias, just like most of those against this change, and would rather assume the worst of Apple than give them the benefit of the doubt and analyze what this change actually means. There a number of eventual benefits to customers going digital, if not immediate, and absolutely no reason to cling to the 3.5mm Jack which cannot deliver them, if the only reason to do it is that it's ubiquitous, and cheap.

I don't understand the mentality that says smaller and lighter is not an important consideration. The iPhone has maintained its battery life, or improved since it arrived. As long as they don't lower the battery life, I'm fine with that, and I'd like to keep it as small and slim as possible. If I need more battery, I'll add a battery case. For those who want a thicker case, they can do the same thing. Why should I be penalized for those who can make their phones as thick as they want any time they want, with as much power as they want with add on accessories?

You make a lot of claims about Apple not needing to make the decisions they may make about dropping the headphone jack, but in the end, you don't know jack. Nobody knows what exactly Apple plans to introduce to the iPhone next or what their internal space needs are to accomodate it. It's all rumors. Moreover you're basing your opinion about what wireless tech Apple will introduce with the next iPhone, entirely on your previous experience with Bluetooth, this despite the fact they just released BT 5, which you know nothing about.

But I totally agree with you it would pointless to buy expensive headphones that can't be used in a wider context. That's why you buy digital headphones that can be used with anything, just by swapping the cable. Maybe even one that has multiple connectors built-in. For all the hand waving going on, this is likely to not be a real inconvenience to anyone, with at least one casual survey confirming that. I've yet to see a survey that shows a demonstrable majority opposed to this change. Just a bunch of people on tech boards, who generally complain about the loss of legacy connectors they're currently using.
 
Right, because aircraft are going to replace all their 3.5mm jacks. And professional audio equipment is going to drop 3.5mm / 6.3mm jacks. And ATM machines - they often have 3.5mm jacks for audio interfaces for the partially sighted.

I was going to reply, but Mac 128 effectively already noted what I was going to.

I'll add that with the airlines, they will indeed chase after new connectivity as things change in the consumer market, but given the widespread use of iPads / tablets, iPhones / smartphones and laptops that can easily last even long-haul flights, more and more people are simply using the devices they own instead of the normally poor options many airlines provide.

And ATM's are already changing, moving to wireless connectivity (including Apple Pay) that is happening fast.

Regarding the various headphone connections and your seeming hatred for change from the 3.5mm jack, one thing that is likely to happen while a battle plays out for which new connector (Lightning vs USBc) dominates the market, is that headphones will end up coming with replaceable cords, as many do already today. And it's likely that the 3.5mm will not be the dominant version, but the dumbed down connector to use, because that is what it is.

As far as the cost of USBc or Lightning being higher than 3.5mm, that too will change as factories shift from exclusively making 3.5mm to the new standard. This happens all the time with shifts in technology. You might not be old enough to remember (or too old that you've forgotten), that when the shift from 3.5" floppy disks to CD's happened, everyone complained about the price, because the floppy was so ubiquitous that it's price was low, but CD prices came down as volumes went up.

In regards to the change effecting other devices outside the phone / computer markets, I can remember a time when stereo receivers all had ¼" headphone ports on the front, so you could listen to music using your headphones with the 25' cord connected to them. Things change, and as much as some devices like a home stereo receiver may not get replaced for decades at a time (I'm still using a receiver from 1994, albeit now driving 4 rooms of speakers using an Airport Express), the need to keep one technology from changing because it may effect another, just won't stop progress.

You comment that you've embraced BT wireless connectivity. And that you rarely use the 3.5mm jack. But that you need it, so you don't agree with it getting replaced or eliminated. This is typical for why things change. People, as much as technology, move on to other better, different, things.

And finally, we're talking about something Apple may do. Other manufacturers already have. Please start complaining to Motorola and Huwei or the other Chinese brands that have already made the move, about their actual disruption that is causing you untold issues today and into the foreseeable future.
 
After so many postings regarding this topic, I yet have to see one convincing argument in favour of a change. And no, 'thinner' it's not it. I read 'new cables', I read 'new connectors', 'adapters'.

For what exactly again? To plug in a headphone into something which I can do right now without worries?

I am sure, many people who like good sound quality and have bought a pair of good earphones, have done something similar like me: they carefully select bought a set with low impedance so it can be plugged in everywhere and even a mobile DAC and AMP has no problems driving them.

And again: BT and Lightning have been available for a long time.

But some of you have the insane thought that one option (the universal one) has to be killed first, in order to advance a more proprietary one.

But to argue here seems pointless. Many good arguments have been brought up. But of course, we are all trolls and cynical.

I am afraid when I look over the last years of Apple's products and so called 'innovations'. Because I do sense there is a threat that the Apple of 2016 could pull an absolutely stupid and consumer unfriendly move. And please, for the love of God, stop comparing this case with the removal of the Floppy Disk. It were completely different circumstances and a complete different Apple by then.
 
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After so many postings regarding this topic, I yet have to see one convincing argument in favour of a change. And no, 'thinner' it's not it. I read 'new cables', I read 'new connectors', 'adapters'.

For what exactly again? To plug in a headphone into something which I can do right now without worries?

I am sure, many people who like good sound quality and have bought a pair of good earphones, have done something similar like me: they carefully select bought a set with low impedance so it can be plugged in everywhere and even a mobile DAC and AMP has no problems driving them.

And again: BT and Lightning have been available for a long time.

But some of you have the insane thought that one option (the universal one) has to be killed first, in order to advance a more proprietary one.

But to argue here seems pointless. Many good arguments have been brought up. But of course, we are all trolls and cynical.

I am afraid when I look over the last years of Apple's products and so called 'innovations'. Because I do sense there is a threat that the Apple of 2016 could pull an absolutely stupid and consumer unfriendly move. And please, for the love of God, stop comparing this case with the removal of the Floppy Disk. It were completely different circumstances and a complete different Apple by then.

You are simply not understanding that change will provide benefits not currently available to headphones using 3.5mm connectors. Because it's an unknown, the natural thing is for people to either be afraid or deny why change is happening.

Changing from 3.5mm jack to Lightning or USBc, will allow things like smaller noise canceling headphones, because the power can come from the iPhone instead of a bulky battery in the cans. Even small ear buds could become noise canceling.

There will also likely be other things such as health tracking ability, or VR immersion options added. Things that we just don't know about because it's difficult to know for certain since we have lived with a dumb physical connector for so many years. Growth will certainly happen and we will likely be back here complaining when the wire disappears and the Lightning or USBc port disappears because we invested too much money and there isn't a reason to change.

And if you think that Apple ditching the floppy for CD drive isn't similar, you likely didn't live through that change. It was a huge issue. Obviously the market was far smaller and Apple's audience an even smaller subset, but it was game changing. Apple took a lot a crap for the move, but they also fostered change that we all benefited from. It's what Apple is great at doing, challenging the status quo pushing ahead with something new.
 
You are simply not understanding that change will provide benefits not currently available to headphones using 3.5mm connectors. Because it's an unknown, the natural thing is for people to either be afraid or deny why change is happening.

Changing from 3.5mm jack to Lightning or USBc, will allow things like smaller noise canceling headphones, because the power can come from the iPhone instead of a bulky battery in the cans. Even small ear buds could become noise canceling.

There will also likely be other things such as health tracking ability, or VR immersion options added. Things that we just don't know about because it's difficult to know for certain since we have lived with a dumb physical connector for so many years. Growth will certainly happen and we will likely be back here complaining when the wire disappears and the Lightning or USBc port disappears because we invested too much money and there isn't a reason to change.

And if you think that Apple ditching the floppy for CD drive isn't similar, you likely didn't live through that change. It was a huge issue. Obviously the market was far smaller and Apple's audience an even smaller subset, but it was game changing. Apple took a lot a crap for the move, but they also fostered change that we all benefited from. It's what Apple is great at doing, challenging the status quo pushing ahead with something new.

Look, please give me the benefit of the doubt. I have been "around" computers, IT, Media for a very long time - and yes, I have witnessed the change from Floppy to CDs first hand. It didn't upset me much that time because I could see the benefit and I started to use CDs long before the Floppy Discs finally disappeared.

We have discussed this in these threads for so many times: BT, Lightning, etc, have been available for quite some time, as are Technology for noise cancelling, health tracking, etc. Everything is available here and today. In fact, much could be incorporated into the phone itself - did it take off? Or is this insane argument coming up again, that one, the universal technology, the one customers and industry have embrassed, has to be killed in order to force a move, because we all are stupid, cynical trolls and don't see the benefits?

Like one guy posted (and in fact I had exactly the same thoughts): if the opposite was true and Apple would create a simple and robust connector to replace the fragile Ligthing cable one in order to make use of the internal DAC, the forum would cheers about so much genius. I am curious to see, how Lightning connected cables will hold up daily usage in someone's pocket. My gut feeling tells me, that the simple 3.5 mm jack with its simple cable containing only 3-4 leads will be the more robust solution.

But personally what makes me cringe as well in this discussion, that if some members here (like for example Mr. Adapter Advocat Nr. 1) don't agree with someone else opinion, can throw insults out. And when others point out, that Apple should at least compromise a not so proprietary solution, like USB-C, the same person starts squealing that he/she doesn't want to change cables, etc. Hilarious. :rolleyes:

But in fact this discussion is becoming pointless as we are moving in circles. In fact, I believe HobeSoundyderryl summed it up pretty convincingly:

Maybe the weekend rumor is that Apple had decided to go ahead and eject the battery and camera too, both even more "antiquated" technologies than 3.5mm. Certainly the usual suspects would spin why those moves would be great for us too (just as soon as they started believing Apple was probably going to do it), with every bit of the passion/spin/lying/etc going into trying to rationalize getting rid of 3.5mm...

"Key to waterproof": Apparently water only wants to enter small round holes, not the larger, rectangular hole just millimeters away? And, of course, competitors have rolled out waterproof devices with 3.5mm. Can Apple not do what competitors can do?

"Digital is better": Yet our ears can only hear analog. Preserving a digital stream a few more mm should have little to no net gain for anyone. We're not measuring that preservation in meters here- just millimeters.

"DAC will be better": So why not put a better DAC INSIDE the phone... where one has to be anyway... so it can still work as a phone? And cheap adapters are going to have cheap DACs, so unless one pays up for their new iPhone "tail", there's no guarantee that the DAC outside will actually be superior to the DAC inside.

"wireless* is the future": Yet in the present, wireless typically delivers lower-quality sound, is another thing to charge, has lag problems when watching video and is much less accessible when you need to connect to much other tech where 3.5mm is readily usable now.

"lightning* is better": No, lightning is just a connector... and it's a proprietary one that will never be able to become as ubiquitous as 3.5mm or even bluetooth due to it's proprietary hold by a single company who will not even stick with it very long themselves because it will soon clash with "thinner" (tip up your own iDevice and look as the current state of "thin" vs. the size of the jack... then think about the near-term future). And do we really want precious space on the edge of future Macs to be taken by a Lightning jack for headphone use instead of- say- another USB3 port?

*both bluetooth and lightning jack options are ALREADY available for anyone who believes anything they actually spin about the superiority of either option. Those who believe what they are spinning can already embrace the better option. Killing 3.5mm is not an obstacle for anyone wanting to go either way now... or even in 2015.

"All you need is a small adapter": This one can be applied to a decision to eject the battery too... then the camera... etc. Apple could sell us an empty box for $1000 and then we could buy various "adapters" (sold separately of course) to attach together to get the features that used to come INSIDE a single box. Selling an empty box would be very, very profitable for Apple and AAPL... and apparently a chunk of us consumers prioritize such thinking over even what's good for us.

And my favorite...

"Apple must force changes for the better... like dropping floppy discs, embracing USB, etc" implying that consumers just can't embrace obviously superior on our own (apparently we're all too ignorant- cue the Henry Ford quote about faster horses), while ignoring that the obvious successors to technologies like floppy discs were already available, obviously superior and NOT proprietary.

Again and again in every one of these threads, the question keeps being asked: what's in this change for us consumers? It's obvious what "forcing" proprietary standards does for the corporation and AAPL. But what do we gain here? Could we get a no-spin, quality answer to that question? And why does 3.5mm have to go to deliver whatever answer is spun?

At the end, Apple can and will do whatever they think it's the right thing to do for them. And that is fair enough. For me, as a customer I will decide what is best for me. I can frankly say, that I find Apple's offerings less and less interesting and my upgrade cycles have increased accordingly. I don't need for example the latest and best technology available in regards processing power and GPU specs, but I have a problems paying absurd premium prices for yesterday's technology. Apart from the lack of value, there is literally nothing in Apple's computer line up at the moment which makes me itchy and pull out my wallet.

I can foresee the same delevopment in regards to phones. I also have used and enjoyed Android in the past and would have no problems changing platforms again. I suspect I am not the only one thinking along that lines.
 
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You are simply not understanding that change will provide benefits not currently available to headphones using 3.5mm connectors. Because it's an unknown, the natural thing is for people to either be afraid or deny why change is happening.

Changing from 3.5mm jack to Lightning or USBc, will allow things like smaller noise canceling headphones, because the power can come from the iPhone instead of a bulky battery in the cans. Even small ear buds could become noise canceling.

There will also likely be other things such as health tracking ability, or VR immersion options added. Things that we just don't know about because it's difficult to know for certain since we have lived with a dumb physical connector for so many years. Growth will certainly happen and we will likely be back here complaining when the wire disappears and the Lightning or USBc port disappears because we invested too much money and there isn't a reason to change.

And if you think that Apple ditching the floppy for CD drive isn't similar, you likely didn't live through that change. It was a huge issue. Obviously the market was far smaller and Apple's audience an even smaller subset, but it was game changing. Apple took a lot a crap for the move, but they also fostered change that we all benefited from. It's what Apple is great at doing, challenging the status quo pushing ahead with something new.

When someone starts a thread with: "I have yet to see one convincing argument in favour of a change", then you know no matter how much you present valid rebuttals, you will be irrationally shot down. What the person is really saying is that they don't want anyone to take their headphone jack away so there's no argument which would ever convince them, short of it curing cancer. And as if to drive home that point, wild hyperbole substitutes for reasonable discourse, making debate all but useless. At the end of the day, these people simply don't want to understand someone else's point of view, so they hurl insults, and cynical remarks instead.

You make good points. Too bad nobody here cares to hear them.
 
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You are simply not understanding that change will provide benefits not currently available to headphones using 3.5mm connectors. Because it's an unknown, the natural thing is for people to either be afraid or deny why change is happening.

Changing from 3.5mm jack to Lightning or USBc, will allow things like smaller noise canceling headphones, because the power can come from the iPhone instead of a bulky battery in the cans. Even small ear buds could become noise canceling.

There will also likely be other things such as health tracking ability, or VR immersion options added. Things that we just don't know about because it's difficult to know for certain since we have lived with a dumb physical connector for so many years. Growth will certainly happen and we will likely be back here complaining when the wire disappears and the Lightning or USBc port disappears because we invested too much money and there isn't a reason to change.

And if you think that Apple ditching the floppy for CD drive isn't similar, you likely didn't live through that change. It was a huge issue. Obviously the market was far smaller and Apple's audience an even smaller subset, but it was game changing. Apple took a lot a crap for the move, but they also fostered change that we all benefited from. It's what Apple is great at doing, challenging the status quo pushing ahead with something new.

non of the benefits you've said require dropping the port to happen. The port can exist and STILL have all the technologies you've mentioned.

This is the crux of MOST of the 3.5mm holdovers.

you can already get Lightning based headphones with DACs. you can already get headphones with no batteries in them. you can already use Lightning for Health tracking or VR if a developer wished to do so

None of those require dropping the 3.5.

And as mentioned before by many of us
you don't need to drop 3.5 for thickness. there are iPods with the 3.5mm jack that are 5mm in thickness.
you don't need to drop the 3.5mm for Waterproofing. the 3.5 can already be waterproofed as is (See S7)

So again: Why does Apple need to drop the 3.5mm jack? this is the great unknown to all of us. None of us know why they'd do it since there's nothing we're aware off that the 3.5mm is holding us back on. it's just a simple, analogue, non smart port that is available for us.

now, I'll play the game that maybe Apple has invented something that we can't imagine and that space is required for that. This is the unknown unknown that we're all speculating on.

But baring that, Removign the 3.5mm jack now based on what we know, can only be surmised to Apple is dropping the headphone port in order to drive users towards purchasing lightning headphones, which has direct, financial benefit to Apple. Without the ability to use any 3.5mm headphone from any manufacturer, your only option is either MFI, which Apple takes a cut off, or Beats, which Apple owns and takes their cut of. So yea, Removing the 3.5mm port absolutely feels like a user hostile movement with the sole intention of driving more business to MFI/Beats
 
But, they can add a second speaker. Stereo, with a full 1" of separation...

which will then become Mono once you cup them with your hand to get any reasonable volume because Apple, (well, like 90% of the smartphone world) still insists that bottom facing speaker has any reasonable sound properties.

at least it's not on the back... yes. Samsung. How many years did it take you to fix that disaster
 
You really shouldn't feed the trolls. When someone starts a thread with: "I have yet to see one convincing argument in favour of a change", then you know no matter how much you present valid rebuttals, you will be irrationally shot down. What the person is really saying is that they don't want anyone to take their headphone jack away so there's no argument which would ever convince them, short of it curing cancer. And as if to drive home that point, wild hyperbole substitutes for reasonable discourse, making debate all but useless. At the end of the day, these people simply don't want to understand someone else's point of view, so they hurl insults, and cynical remarks instead.

You make good points. Too bad nobody here cares to hear them.

There are currently many other uses for the headphone jack, credit card readers, wind meters, external mics etc. I'm fine with lightning evolving to support new things as well but it is purely a consumer hostile move to drop the headphone jack before these "possibly" new technologies are out. This is solely a profit move by Apple it seems. I've said it before, Apple is the big dog, but this dog is beginning to smell.

This will be the first time my whole family will not be upgrading and my influencer Youtoober kids will be dissing Apple for the first time as well. Anyone who thinks this is in our (consumers) interest is pipe dreaming.
 
This has become a bs discussion. The percieved usefulness of the port isn't up for discussion; it's useful. It'll disappear from phones eventually, because the usefulness -apparently- isn't important enough.

I just ordered a par of €15 bt headphones because it dawned on me the switch (I use the white ones in some situations) would mean no more tangling of the cords. Just that made me switch; but I would have never thought of that if it weren't for this discussion.

I think the port will go, just because it can. But 3,5 mm will be ubiquitous for quite some time. Eventually it'll be similar to this thing: used a lot but not by the masses.
74eeebf997ec814fadd08f8c886f0ac1.jpg
 
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This has become a bs discussion. The percieved usefulness of the port isn't up for discussion; it's useful. It'll disappear from phones eventually, because the usefulness -apparently- isn't important enough.

I just ordered a par of €15 bt headphones because it dawned on me the switch (I use the white ones in some situations) would mean no more tangling of the cords. Just that made me switch; but I would have never thought of that if it weren't for this discussion.

I think the port will go, just because it can. But 3,5 mm will be ubiquitous for quite some time. Eventually it'll be similar to this thing: used a lot but not by the masses.
74eeebf997ec814fadd08f8c886f0ac1.jpg
Is that XLR?
 
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