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While I want an xMac as much as any DIY PC builder type who has switched, the PC Gaming market is large but fading. The console games are decimating the PC as a gaming platform, leaving a smaller pie for Apple play in. Apple likes to target growing markets, not shrinking ones.

ever been to a european electronic retailer who sells video games ? i guess not

PC games are currently on the upswing again even more so in hardware (after all tomorrow nvidia is going to present the first geforce 9000 series cards which according to first rumors offer nearly twice the performance it's predecessor offered... and apple users are getting them next year i guess :rolleyes:)

seriously i'm sick and tired of this talking down to gaming like it's niche ..compared to an aweful lot of stuff apple is doing/offering it's a gigantic market ... seriously if i pay premium i want premium hardware and not "leftover parts from the macbook/imac" or "stuff that when it was released a year ago wasn't that great to begin with"

and pleasing shareholders ? i thought apple was about great products ... guess i was wrong
if it's all about margins anyway i can safely put my money simply in seperate parts which are superior in quality and cheaper because the shareholders of those companies are happier with lesser margins

the sad thing is that 14 years ago visiting a friend with a mac i was the one saying "my PC could never run that game" now i'm the one owning a mac and saying "my mac could never run such a game" .. or when apple was the first to announce a computer with a geforce 4ti card (or was it geforce 3 ?) ... i guess those times are long gone now i have to be happy to get a computer at all from apple

guess next time it means a new DIY computer is back on plan... which means i'll use my old mac mini for surfing, email and listening to music ... because apple computers seem to can't do anything else really (and sure don't have such a useful lifetime like computers built by your own...)
 
Some research

<snip>PC games are currently on the upswing again even more so in hardware. <snip> seriously i'm sick and tired of this talking down to gaming like it's niche ..compared to an aweful lot of stuff apple is doing/offering it's a gigantic market ... <snip> and pleasing shareholders ? i thought apple was about great products ... guess i was wrong.

I'll get back to the bit about niche at the end. See the end graphic and commentary below if you think i'm ********ting my position :)

Apple and gaming

1) Apple is moving into the cellphone market. Cellphones have games. Those games get sold at a minimum of a few dollars apiece

As a side note, isn't it the Head of Nintendo who was ogling over Apple, saying what an amazing company it was?

Ugh - you kill me you guys. But here's some data from the internet, so we're at least playing with some numbers, rather than just personal positions:

* A mobile game is a video game played on a mobile phone, smartphone, PDA, handheld computer or any type of handheld or wireless device.

Penetration
2/3 of US households already play games.
CGA report of the most popular casual titles in 2007:
Solitaire (Microsoft Windows XP)
Tetris (Tetris Holding, LLC)
Bejeweled (PopCap Games)
In addition, 34% of heads of households play games on a wireless device, such as a cell phone or PDA in 2005, up from 20%in 2002.

PC games sales have been better in 2007 and 2008 than the dip prior to that - mid 90s sales were floundering.
WoW has been a good help to pull the PC game market. Crysis also.

PC game market 2005 $953m in revenue.
PC game market 2006 $970m
Console game sales 2005 ~ $4.8bn
Portable game sales 2005 ~$1.7bn

UK 2007
Total software units: £75.9m (Up 16% on 2006)
Total sofware value: £1.72billion (Up 25% on 2006)
Total console software (units): 58.2 million (Up 26 % on 2006)
Total console software (value): £1.41bn (Up 34% on 2006)
Console handheld (units): 21.4m (Up 45 % on 2006)

Future
Where's an emerging market, that doesn't mean Apple has to put itself out on a limb to try and make money?
Well looky here, it's the mobile game industry, with the iPhone linking to it, via an SDK iTunes fee based and freeware games scheme, soon to be announced.

By 2010, PWC predicts worldwide video game market groth to $46.5 billion, (av. 11.4% compound annual rate)
Filmed entertainment business PwC estimates growth at at a 5.3% compound annual rate, to become a $104 billion market by 2010
TV networks business expected at 6.6% rate to $227 billion.

PWC expects U.S. video game market to grow slower than other sectors, lagging Asia Pacific and the combined region of Europe, the Middle East and Africa (PwC's "Global Entertainment and Media Outlook: 2006-2010.)

But it's a variable market. People necessitate a phone these days, but casual gaming can cut back. The larger costs may get cut first. That's a few less games at $2 a go, but a longer time before buying a $300 gaming rig.

Further stats at http://www.parksassociates.com/research/reports/tocs/pdfs/parks-Casual-Gaming_TOC.pdf.

[One of Apple's plans]

Mobile phones have penetration at higher levels worldwide than video games, so mobile gaming has potential to have better penetration than video games.

Worldwide mobile telephone subscriptions 3.3 billion by late 07-Jan 08. Think the size for Chinese and Indian markets for phones. Heck, look at the Chinese unlocked iPhone share - estimated to be 400,000. That's before Apple's even got into that market, and it's a EDGE phone.

A further 1.5 billion mobile phone users are expected over the next 3-4 years to bring the overall penetration rate to 75 per cent by 2011. A lot of these users coming from the Asia Pacific region with the majority from rural regions in countries such as India and Pakistan.

The mobile game market has been in a slump like the video game mid 90s - it has the potential, but over the phone, hasn't grasped it - It is a $5bn industry but <5% of mobile users tend to play games.

Put another way, there are now reports that computer games on mobile phones will be the fastest growing format in a mobile entertainment market that will generate sales of $42.8bn (£25.5bn) by 2010.
Estimated that global revenues from computer games played on mobile phones will rise from $2.6bn this year to $11.bn by the end of the decade, outstripping music and pornography. Hell! So there's stats to play either side of the argument. To extrapolation and beyond is my motto...

Some further hints Apple's in the right direction -
Smartphones users are >200% more likely to download a game than owners of regular handsets. So Apple will probably see even moe, as it p@wns S60's on this front.

Apple also has a great set up for the money - iTunes:
Seamus McAteer, senior analyst with M:metrics: "One of the greatest challenges facing publishers by the growing adoption of smartphones is the wide availability of free or pirated content for these devices."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/jul/26/newmedia.games

Hell Jobs made this clear at a recent keynote - Cellphone market is bigger than the PC market at the moment, and there's going to be more growth.

The 2 graphics show Apple's into the biggest market - music.
Apple's already in the biggest market - music
Apple's getting into the second biggest market - video - via Apple TV Take 2
Apple is about to launch into the third biggest market - Games - via it's iPhone.

I would put a theoretical wager that Apple will make a bigger revenue stream from games this year via the iPhone than via regular Mac games. Or even possibly Mac and PC games to be played via Bootcamp etc.
 

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Modular computers would be perfect to fill the hole. The mac mini pretty much as it is now, but with other optional modules available to buy with a graphics card slot, one with a full size hard drive bay, another with an optical drive bay, etc.

Assuming theres some kind of connection with the bandwidth for this they could just stack on top of each other. You could even have an ipod dock module to sit right on the top.
 
Anyway, my main desktop machine (P4) is also long in the tooth. Also, She Who Must Be Obeyed needs a new computer (She has a PIII still running Win98 -- won't upgrade) and my Mac Mini would be perfect for her -- allowing me to buy and new box (and get brownie points with Her :) )

I have a similar problem with my mom. She has a Celeron running Windows ME. Her next computer is going to be a MacBook.

For your wife: if the mini has an Intel processor, then run Parallels (or VMWare) and run Win98. But try to ween her of Win98 because its a PITA to support.

Also I'd like to see a Mid Mac, in between the mini and the Power Mac. It just needs to support more that one video output. I see so many computers with dual screens (@ home, @ the office) and the only option is a Power Mac. Or a iMac with external screen, but that looks ... like a patch job.
 
Modular computers would be perfect to fill the hole. The mac mini pretty much as it is now, but with other optional modules available to buy with a graphics card slot, one with a full size hard drive bay, another with an optical drive bay, etc.

Assuming theres some kind of connection with the bandwidth for this they could just stack on top of each other. You could even have an ipod dock module to sit right on the top.

Apple does have the option of moving towards modular, like the Mac Pro.

Apple TV, iPhone iPod etc people would normally leave alone, and not expect to be able to open to upgrade. They expect a laptop to have some upgradability, but not that much (RAM, hard drive, battery replaceable).

However, people are used to being able to upgrade their (desktop) PC. Mac Pro can, so why not other Macs? Well, the mini is on a EOL possibly, and it's the only one causing problems - it could be easily modular, but it ain't.
Replacing or updating the Mac mini, Apple have the option to make their non laptop non pro desktop form a modular one.
Apple likes not having too many things changeable, - it's more manageable that way in terms of drivers, problems, recalls, issues etc.
I think the replacement mac mini might give a view on Apple's direction on this.
 
Fact: The iMac's glossy screen makes it pathetic for photo work.
Fact: The Mac Pro is way more machine than pretty much anyone not rendering video for a living needs.

As for a 30% margin please the kind of box we're talking about can easily be built from retail parts for about $1200. I doubt any of us would hesitate to buy one form Apple for $1500 (yes I know that's only 25%, but I'm sure Apple doesn't pay retail for parts.)


For those that don't know, and if it hasn't been said:

1). This topic has been beaten to death and most people have failed to realize that it won't happen.

So what. Even if you're right, there are enough of us interested in one that we still want to discuss it.

Honestly, why does this topic seem to piss people off so much?
 
Uh, check out the latest 2nd-generation perpendicular recording HDDs,
(e.g., Seagate's 7200.11 family). At 105 MB/s sustained R/W, cheap
commodity drives are now faster than FW800 -- and the technology is
capable of twice that speed. HDD throughput jumped by 30% since the
previous generation, and the next year or two will see another 30%.
Samsung's 1TB SpinPoint-F1 is spec'd 175 MB/s, sustained. (I don't
know how real that is, but it's at least in the 120 MB/s ballpark.)



Of course FW3200 is "better" than eSATA -- because vaporware is always
vastly superior to current technology (especially when you have neither).
Please post a link to an actual FW3200 drive, or a Mac with a FW3200 port.

Betcha I can find an eSATA cable at the local RadioShack or BestBuy -- but
I wouldn't hold out much hope of finding a 9-pin firewire cable.



That's funny, FW400 and FW800 are already "capable" of supplying up to 45 watts
(at unspecified voltages), but I've never seen a bus-powered 3.5" firewire HDD.
Anyhow, the "capability" is useless to a designer -- because it's totally optional.
Apple could supply 45 watts, but they actually supply only 7-8 watts per port.

Good luck running a fast 3.5" HDD on 8 watts!

Anyhow, an external HDD deserves a dedicated point-to-point interface where it
doesn't have to "play nice" or compete for bandwidth with a gaggle of unknown,
unpredictable, BrandX audio/video devices.

LK

Leon I like you.... but you obviously missed the point my friend. I am not saying that eSATA sucks, just that the next tech, USB3.0 and FW3200, will be faster and far superior. And by bus powered I obviously meant the 2.5" drives that are just as fast as many of the 3.5" ones. eSATA is amazing for desktops, but if you have moved your workflow to a portable, it's only nice for when you are sitting at your desk.


Get a grip.

So what. Even if you're right, there are enough of us interested in one that we still want to discuss it.

Honestly, why does this topic seem to piss people off so much?

NO, many so called photo people just don't know how to color edit and tone their images. You can edit on any screen, it's just that the current batch of color professionals aren't as educated as one may think. In my short teaching time at my alma mater we practiced color editing by the numbers, and a few professors turned the negative screen setting on our Mac on so that we were forced to USE THE NUMBERS.

Color profiling helps, but it's not necessary, and any real "PRO" can just use what they have.

As for the topic being beaten to death, it doesn't piss me off. Just letting the newbies know that we have been talking about it since the death of the G4 Cube, and the lack of a $1500 tower from Apple. I was IN the boat with you guys, but I have come to grips with Apple's lack of support for specialty/necessary products.

For example, it pains me how the MacBook Pro can be called a pro notebook, especially the 17" PC notebooks just blow it away performance and feature wise. I would love to have (for you Leon) eSATA ports and HDMI ports and more FW800 ports because they are BUS powered for the now pretty fast 2.5" drives that mobile pros use etc etc but Apple wants to cater to the pathetic consumer crowd that just loves their SLIM and cool looking machine to show off to their friends.

F**K that, give me a real workhorse! So many users are complaining and demanding things from Apple, and many of us agree with the need for a MINI tower and a professional laptop and better warranties, etc. But as long as Apple has the best (IMHO) operating system and pro hardware integration I am stuck, we are all stuck.

Or we can just learn to live with Windows, and then the entire world of hardware from ultra portable 10" notebooks to 21" REAL desktop replacements will be opened up to us.
 
As for the topic being beaten to death, it doesn't piss me off. Just letting the newbies know that we have been talking about it since the death of the G4 Cube, and the lack of a $1500 tower from Apple. I was IN the boat with you guys, but I have come to grips with Apple's lack of support for specialty/necessary products.

[snip]

F**K that, give me a real workhorse! So many users are complaining and demanding things from Apple, and many of us agree with the need for a MINI tower and a professional laptop and better warranties, etc. But as long as Apple has the best (IMHO) operating system and pro hardware integration I am stuck, we are all stuck.

Or we can just learn to live with Windows, and then the entire world of hardware from ultra portable 10" notebooks to 21" REAL desktop replacements will be opened up to us.

true that except some are less stuck than others ;)
personally i have never dropped my old win xp computer from 2002 and the irony is of course tht the mac mini g4 is the one who slowed down over time which each security upgade while the xp computer in terms got faster through better drivers... so much for THAT myth

seriously apples software devision has to burden he whole strain of having to keep customers ... at least those who actually expect premium performance for the premium price

personally i'm very little locked in through specific apps as a home user so adding just another machine for more performance hungry needs would be a breeze since i simply could continue to use the mac mini as a mail/surfing station
too bad that apple can't offer a computer which can do anything without charging insane price

i'm gonna wait a little further if apple at least does something more to make their current line up less sickening but currently i would rather buy a new desktop with good performance + a notebook for work

sadly that would pull my computer habits to whole 3 machines (since i'll keep my old mini) ... so much for desktop clutter removal through buying an apple machine
 
As for the topic being beaten to death, it doesn't piss me off. Just letting the newbies know that we have been talking about it since the death of the G4 Cube, and the lack of a $1500 tower from Apple. I was IN the boat with you guys, but I have come to grips with Apple's lack of support for specialty/necessary products.

I think we need to "beat it to death" and keep the discussions going. Perhaps persistence will pay off.

I like either of these two options:
- iMac and Apple Cinema display look "compatible.
- maxi mini/mini tower/nano MacPro that can run two (or more) displays.
 
As Mac marketshare is rising it makes less and less sense for not offer a product for the biggest market segment at this moment. The xMac could be a big success in business market who need reasonably priced and easily serviced machine for general office use. iMac has several fundamental issues, for example lack of height adjustment ruins ergonomics. Also there's a big market for power users disgruntled with Vista who need reasonably priced Quad-core desktop made of commodity hardware, not ultra high-end workstation and server parts.

Keep in mind that Steve doesn't own Apple, he's just an employee like everyone else in there. Sure, he's done wonders to bring the company back to life. But if Steve with his stubborness is artificially limiting Apple's growth and not fully utilizing the market potential and technological leadership that OS X has over Vista, the shareholders and board may have something to say.
 
[mobile gaming]

I understand the appeal of mobile gaming, really I do. So does my wife, who plays a game of solitaire on her iPhone every night before she goes to bed. But these are shallow little tension-releavers and time-wasters.

Will they be a big money-maker? Yes. Does that satisfy the pleas from those of us who like to game on our PCs? No.

We (PC gamers) are not mindless drones (some of us aren't, anyway). We like games with art, a brilliant story, and require brain-function.

Take StarCraft, for example. What a brilliant game (you might be able to tell I'm a fan by my avatar). The story is magnificent, gameplay is challenging, testing one's skills in base design, resource management, macro & micro controlling of an army, multi-tasking, etc. and the art (for 1998) was pretty dang amazing.

Take SimCity 4. It's not as fast-pasted as StarCraft, but requires a fine-tuned awareness of Sims' needs and strategic planning. It's an extremely challenging game. I have yet to be able to create a city that is both large and efficient and I've been playing for years.

PC games are not just frivilous time-wasters. Many of them can be more challenging and engaging than a Crossword. Sure there are some that are not but what makes them any less valid as quality games?

Mobile games ARE frivilous. They are good for nothing more than blowing off steam and wasting time.

Why is Apple spending so much money persuing such a trite market instead of investing only a small amount of money in bringing QUALITY gaming content to the Mac?

It still makes no sense to me why this is so hard for Apple to do. It honestly wouldn't cost them that much to implement at all.

-Clive
 
There is the Apple Tax where if you want more power you better have some money. Jobs, in the privacy of his office, probably wrings his hands with glee, like Scrooge McDuck, every time the financial guy drops off the latest stats on the profit margins.

You gots to drink all of your Kool Aid to want to play in this game. Me, I kind of sip it, but it saves me money. So far. There is so much I need...
 
Yes there are many proponents of the mid-range solution for the supposed gap or hole in the lineup. I was one of them. 2nd internal bay. PCI slot. Upgradable graphics. Keep your screen. Etc.

Partly b/c I liked the Pro aluminum finish, MBPs, MacPros, ACDs. Then the iMac went from white to aluminum. Problem solved. 24" is perfect. Doesn't need to be bigger though I would have bought a 27". 30" is too big right now for the consumer lineup. Anyway. Your KB works with an iMac. But the new iMac KB is a dream to type on. And the screen is phenomenal. Everyone I know who has seen it loves it. So with the iMac being as sweet as it is. No, there is no hole. You want a separate solution, get a Mac Pro or stay with the Mini. And as far as overkill or $$. Get a used Mac Pro or refurb for less.
 
There is the Apple Tax where if you want more power you better have some money. Jobs, in the privacy of his office, probably wrings his hands with glee, like Scrooge McDuck, every time the financial guy drops off the latest stats on the profit margins.

You gots to drink all of your Kool Aid to want to play in this game. Me, I kind of sip it, but it saves me money. So far. There is so much I need...

Agreed, but then every company is that way, or thing to be that way.... like McDuck that is. I know for a fact that Gates was doing it when he decided to charge $400 for Vista Ultimate and $400+ for MS Office. Not that it's wholly wrong, just that it better work when I install those apps.

The thing that gets me about Jobs however is that he knows that Mac OS X is a gem to some users eyes, but the hardware is a killing pain, and for many (everyone on this thread included) it's where Apple is failing.

They have to know that users that aren't happy with the iMac or Mac Mini have no where to turn. I would pay the premium for an OS that makes my work easier, but when I go to hook up my deck via FW400 and my 800 port is already taken but I need to plug in that ONE more FW device but all i have is USB then my job just got harder. I don't mind express card adaptors but come on.... Apple can fix this problem, and then the nomenclature of Apple's laptops won't be misused.
 
And by bus powered I obviously meant the 2.5" drives that are just as fast as many of the 3.5" ones.

A FW3200 2.5" drive is like a Yugo with wheelie bars.

Please name ONE 2.5" drive as fast as a Seagate 7200.11 family drive, or a
WD75000AAKS, or a Samsung SpinPoint F1 -- and big enough to backup the
smallest internal drive available in any current or previous generation iMac.

...while you're at it, compare MTBFs and $$/GB,

LK
 
Leon, you're barking up the wrong tree. From what I gather, these folks have little use for "numbers" or "specifications," let alone making an informed choice based on the plentiful benchmarking out there on the interweb. Better yet, they know EXACTLY what YOU need! Two hard drives in one chassis? HAHA, how silly. A difference between notebook and desktop processor/chipsets? Oh please.

That Kool-Aid must be super tasty!
 
A FW3200 2.5" drive is like a Yugo with wheelie bars.

Please name ONE 2.5" drive as fast as a Seagate 7200.11 family drive, or a
WD75000AAKS, or a Samsung SpinPoint F1 -- and big enough to backup the
smallest internal drive available in any current or previous generation iMac.

...while you're at it, compare MTBFs and $$/GB,

LK

You are still SO missing the point Leon. Take a step back for a moment.

What is FW? Look up what USB 3.0 and FW3200 will offer, then compare that to what we have now.

FW3200 will benefit both desktop and laptop owners, and will be more convenient for laptop owners since it is bus powered.

I never said that 2.5" drives would compete with the fastest newest 3.5" drives, they hold their own, and when RAIDed they can handle multiple streams of HD content like the 3.5" drives.

What you need to do is calm down and stop trying to prove me wrong when I am agreeing with you and simply making a different point that really doesn't apply to YOU specifically any more.

While you are looking around for a poster to terrorize, take a moment to study the whole of technology, and it's benefits for the whole market. Much of your misunderstanding comes from a close minded look at the industry.

Leon, you're barking up the wrong tree. From what I gather, these folks have little use for "numbers" or "specifications," let alone making an informed choice based on the plentiful benchmarking out there on the interweb. Better yet, they know EXACTLY what YOU need! Two hard drives in one chassis? HAHA, how silly. A difference between notebook and desktop processor/chipsets? Oh please.

That Kool-Aid must be super tasty!

Gotta love the newbies :rolleyes:
 
Yes there are many proponents of the mid-range solution for the supposed gap or hole in the lineup. I was one of them. 2nd internal bay. PCI slot. Upgradable graphics. Keep your screen. Etc.

Partly b/c I liked the Pro aluminum finish, MBPs, MacPros, ACDs. Then the iMac went from white to aluminum. Problem solved. 24" is perfect.

Uhhh, then, no. You were not truly one of "us."

Our needs are in performance and customization. If an iMac didn't have enough performance and customization before, putting it in an aluminium shell and giving it a nice new screen is not going to change that.

Don't try to relate if you can't relate, and don't try to offer a solution for something you don't understand.
 
damn somebody who joined in 2006 calling others newbie ... thanks for making me feel old ;)

Joined in '06, fence sitter since '04 when I have my issues with my iBook G4. Took me a while to sign up because I was a big Think Secret fan, and didn't appreciate the amount of interference the Administrators have with these sites.

Just to restate my stand on the MINI tower thing: I am all in favor of it, and a revamping of Apple's very limited hardware, but I know that Apple won't do it for various reasons. For some..... that's SOME people, the iMac and external/3rd party hardware works, for others, a refurbished MacPro for around $2000 will work. Those few that are looking for the $1500 headless tower from Apple... I am sorry.

I was once in the boat, then got tired of waiting and am very happy with my G5 PowerMac and will be even happier when I spring for the Mac Pro. So far those are your choices. I am waiting for a real professional workhorse laptop from Apple and I may very well wait forever, so I am either going to suck it up and grab the 17" MBP or switch back to Windows/Linux. The hardware limitations don't look so bad after saying that.
 
FW3200 will benefit both desktop and laptop owners, and will be
more convenient for laptop owners since it is bus powered.

Most laptops don't even have firewire (and never will). Even
Apple's laptops only offer FW800 on the MBP. MacBook has
only FW400, and the MBAir has no firewire at all. Until the
late 2006 24" C2D, iMacs had only FW400.

The world has standardized on SATA and eSATA for desktops,
(and USB for laptop externals). The overwhelming advantage
of eSATA is that it's exactly the same interface as the drive
hardware AND the computer's internal HDD bus. No "bridge"
chipset required, so it runs at 100% full speed, with exactly
the same capabilities as an internal -- including DMA & NCQ.

...FW3200 is a wonderful solution -- lookin' for a problem,

LK
 
Most laptops don't even have firewire (and never will). Even
Apple's laptops only offer FW800 on the MBP. MacBook has
only FW400, and the MBAir has no firewire at all. Until the
late 2006 24" C2D, iMacs had only FW400.

The world has standardized on SATA & eSATA for desktops,
(and USB for laptop externals). eSATA's overwhelming
advantage is that it's exactly the same interface as the
drive's hardware AND the computer's internal HDD bus --
including DMA and NCQ. No "bridge" chipset required.

...FW3200 is a wonderful solution -- lookin' for a problem,

LK

There goes the true Leon that I know and love :D

You're right about what you are saying. And the major issue I have with Apple is just that, the lack of promotion for a pretty solid interface... Firewire.

eSATA is the standard on desktops and it's destined to be the only option for external HDDs on towers and such, it's very needed on the iMac, but on laptops it won't be as convenient. FW3200 (the S3200 1394b specification for the nerds) will reach a sustained read/write of 400MB/s and it will be bus powered, and backward compatible with current ports... I think they are only changing the bridge.

I don't know what else to say... I never really disagreed with you about eSATA. FW has it's ups and downs and will hopefully be more pervasive once S3200 comes out. Apple should adopt both.
 
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