How can Apple sell a Mac with 8GB of RAM in 2023 and call it "Pro"

[Ethosik]

Basically what these macs are advertised to do. Photo editing, video editing, working with large design files, 3d modelling, ML models, I could go on. Good luck doing any of that on a 8GB machine.

Good luck doing most of that on 64GB. There is a reason on why my workload is pushing me to 128GB minimum. So there we go. Other than the $7,000 product nothing should be Pro. I can’t use 16GB like you all can. So they cannot possibly be pro.

See how this becomes an unsustainable discussion? Pro is different with everyone. And by the way, one of my clients has four 24” base M1 iMacs and they spend their day in Photoshop and Final Cut Pro. They do just fine. Most of the time they are green memory pressure.

 

[henkie]

Most professions require the use of computers in some capacity, but I would strongly suspect that the vast majority of this usage is “communication and administration”, i.e.
1) sending messages/emails/documents to colleagues, customers and suppliers
2) reading information in web sites, PDFs, or internal company documents
3) using web-apps hosted on the internet, via cloud service providers, or hosted on corporate servers
4) Creating documentation and presentations
5) possibly using some kind of specialist software for design, accounting or some industry specific tools
6) Maybe some web site development, scripting and system administration

Nearly everything can be done via a web browser these days including software development, server administration, photo editing, office productivity and enterprise applications.

These are all professional uses of computers that do not require a lot of computing power. The number of professions that require a lot of power is tiny compared to the whole. Exceptions include Creative arts & media creation, some science and research, some engineering tasks, some software development tasks. They are a very large number of professionals who just want a reliable high quality machine, but do not need to any significant horsepower

Exactly. So then it seems like waste to use a 2000 euro gimped m3 mbp , while a 13” m1 air is perfectly capable of doing this as well. And it drives the same amount of external monitors.

I haven't watched the video you linked because Maxtech is a terrible source of information, but I assume it boils down to 16GB being better than 8GB. No one is disputing that. If you buy a machine that's underspecced for your needs, you made a mistake. If you buy a 32GB machine when you need 64GB, you'll face similar issues, but that doesn't mean no one could possibly get by with 32GB, it just means you bought the wrong computer.


What people are willing to pay for something doesn't always come down to $/Gb of RAM or storage. If you're not happy with this config, just don't buy it. No one is forcing you to. Buy a specced up Pro or Max config. Buy an M2 Air. Hell, buy an M1 Air. Look at your budget and figure out what your actual needs are and buy a computer that meets those criteria. Why complain so much about a machine you clearly never intended to buy in the first place?

But these differences can be huge.
So this is comparing m2 with 16gb that contains the slow 256gb ssd versus m2 with 8GB but contains the faster 512gb ssd. In almost every test the 16GB wins hands down and sometimes by a very large margin.

These are not very special out of the world work flows. Except the one in which the 8/512 wins out: exporting a single 56gb photo. My problem is that this 8GB is a major bottleneck for the m3 mbp performance and Apple knows this and asks an insane amount of money for something that should have been standard.
If you think it is acceptable to gimp a Ferrari by putting it on wooden wheels (it is still fast, but only on a smooth road) and having Ferrari charge an idiot amount of money for putting rubber tyres under it, then I guess we just disagree.

 

[Ethosik]

Exactly. So then it seems like waste to use a 2000 euro gimped m3 mbp , while a 13” m1 air is perfectly capable of doing this as well. And it drives the same amount of external monitors.

But these differences can be huge.
So this is comparing m2 with 16gb that contains the slow 256gb ssd versus m2 with 8GB but contains the faster 512gb ssd. In almost every test the 16GB wins hands down and sometimes by a very large margin.

These are not very special out of the world work flows. Except the one in which the 8/512 wins out: exporting a single 56gb photo. My problem is that this 8GB is a major bottleneck for the m3 mbp performance and Apple knows this and asks an insane amount of money for something that should have been standard.
If you think it is acceptable to gimp a Ferrari by putting it on wooden wheels (it is still fast, but only on a smooth road) and having Ferrari charge an idiot amount of money for putting rubber tyres under it, then I guess we just disagree.
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But but but. The “slow” SSD cannot possibly do any work! It’s too slow to do anything!

I agree by the way….up until a few months ago I was still using my 2010 Mac Pro in my workflow. Using the SATA 2 ports. But SSDs. Had no issues with ~230 MB/s.

 

[InvertedGoldfish]

It’s marketing


Do you also think Gillette is “the best a man can get”?



Or out of all the zillions of beers Miller is “the champagne of beers”

Out of all the performance cars BWM is “the ultimate driving machine”



Frankly Apple calling it a pro is more honest, heck if you do anything and manage to get someone to pay you for it, even if it’s not much money and you aren't even very good at it, you’re a “pro”



I’m probably paid better than most “creative” types, I occasionally need a computer for what I do, we have these netbooks we got from walmart, if you want to know what’s more pro I say follow the money, I make more so guess that means the $200ish netbook is more pro than the still riding the bus video editing $2000ish Mac?

It’s just marketing

 

[henkie]

they remove ports, they remove functionality and, finally, they remove 32 % of their YTY sales

Not surprised by the huge drop in Mac sales. I also bought a refurbished 16GB/1tb M1pro at a nonApple vendor, while I was eyeing a m2 15air. But the upgrade prices to 512/16 disgusted me tbh. Anyone has a clue on refurbished sales? Can imagine that those dropped less significantly or maybe not at all.

 

[HackMacDaddy]

I'm old, I want upgradable Apple Laptops back.

 

[wnorris]

Nice article on this topic from 404 Media, "In Defense of RAM, Apple Silicon is not magic, and RAM still matters. On the MacBook Pro, 8 GB is not enough."

"It is outrageous that Tim Cook is still selling 8GB of RAM as the default on a $1,300 device. It is very similar to when Apple was selling the iPhone 6S with 16GB of storage as its base device, and people were talking themselves into buying it. It is not just a performance and usability problem, it’s a sustainability and environmental one, too. This is because RAM, historically one of the easiest components to upgrade in order to get more life out of your computer, on MacBook Pros cannot be upgraded and thus when 8GB inevitably becomes not enough, users have to buy a new computer rather than simply upgrade the part of the computer that’s limiting them."

 

[boss.king]

But these differences can be huge.
So this is comparing m2 with 16gb that contains the slow 256gb ssd versus m2 with 8GB but contains the faster 512gb ssd. In almost every test the 16GB wins hands down and sometimes by a very large margin.

These are not very special out of the world work flows. Except the one in which the 8/512 wins out: exporting a single 56gb photo. My problem is that this 8GB is a major bottleneck for the m3 mbp performance and Apple knows this and asks an insane amount of money for something that should have been standard.
If you think it is acceptable to gimp a Ferrari by putting it on wooden wheels (it is still fast, but only on a smooth road) and having Ferrari charge an idiot amount of money for putting rubber tyres under it, then I guess we just disagree.

I love when computer discussions turn into tortured car analogies. If you see a Ferrari with wooden wheels (this is a dumb scenario but let's run with it), because they're not hiding what wheels it has, and you know that you regularly drive on roads where wooden wheels aren't suitable, just don't buy that Ferrari. If you then look at the Ferraris with the wheels you want and aren't comfortable with the price, maybe you're not really in the market for a Ferrari in the first place. You can't just demand that they sell you the next model up for the price of the budget one just because you think they should.

I don't know what to tell you, these machines are not going to perform as well as higher specced machines, but they can still do a bunch of stuff that people who use computers to make a living might need to do. In Ferrari terms, if there's a huge network of perfectly smooth roads and a subsection of buyers who never leave those roads, selling a cheaper model that can only drive on those roads is perfectly fine. Most people who bought the 13" Pro that this thing replaced were not using it to train machine learning models and do heavy 3D rendering. If you don't know what computer you need, ask someone for help. If you do and still buy one with insufficient specs, I have little sympathy for you. This config is simply an option for people who want a nice display but don't do intensely demanding computer tasks.

 

[Analog Kid]

They could just get a macbook air then. What you described is light office use, not heavy work

I don't understand the insistence on reducing the choices available to other people just so you can make a word mean what you want it to mean. You could just get a 16GB macbook pro then, but that's not enough-- there's a need to remove an option from someone else.

Is it a status thing? You want people to know that the form factor of the machine you bought signals you do "real work" while those doing "light office work" must identify themselves with a Mac of a different shape?

What if I'm willing to wait a little longer for my model to train, or my scene to render because I want the lighter, thinner MBA form factor-- will I get hauled in by the form factor police?

Maybe Apple should require us to submit our CV before completing a sale to ensure the messaging around their machines is better maintained.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

The answer to your question is: it will sell.

You don't necessarily have to understand the product, or the market. If the SKU sells, Apple will continue to make it. The outgoing 13" MBP was a product that Internet-Mac-fans could not comprehend...but it sold well, which is why it exists.

You'd be hard pressed to come up with a legitimate argument as to why Apple should not offer a product that sells well.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

So the entry level is not for you then, you have choices…

Everyone wishes that they were the base model user, because Apple's BTO models are where the real extortion happens.

 

[ronincse]

I don't understand how anyone can seriously try to justify shipping a computer with 8gb of memory unless it's like a bargain bin $400 POS. It would be one thing if the large price increase was justified, but it isn't. Any rules about margin are completely made up on Apple's part. Plus, it's not even like the Mac line matters that much to their overall profits, they could likely sell these things at cost and barely affect their revenue.

There is no reason to offer 8gb other than to upsell people the upgrades.

 

[magbarn]

Everyone wishes that they were the base model user, because Apple's BTO models are where the real extortion happens.

You take it in chin while buying and then on trade in/reselling as the loaded models go for almost the same as the base ones too.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

I don't understand how anyone can seriously try to justify shipping a computer with 8gb of memory unless it's like a bargain bin $400 POS. It would be one thing if the large price increase was justified, but it isn't. Any rules about margin are completely made up on Apple's part. Plus, it's not even like the Mac line matters that much to their overall profits, they could likely sell these things at cost and barely affect their revenue.

There is no reason to offer 8gb other than to upsell people the upgrades.

Let me help you understand: it's enough, for a lot of people. Those people will buy it. If the machines were somehow nonfunctional due to 8 GB of RAM, people wouldn't buy them, and Apple wouldn't sell them. You have no argument when the reality is: they sell, and the people that buy them, have no problem with them.

It's impossible NOT to justify it, because reality takes care of that.

 

[dmr727]

There is no reason to offer 8gb other than to upsell people the upgrades.

Well of course that's the reason - I don't think anyone believes otherwise. Some of us just don't understand why folks get so worked up over it. xxx configuration costs xxx. It either works for you or it doesn't. If not, vote with your wallet.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

You take it in chin while buying and then on trade in/reselling as the loaded models go for almost the same as the base ones too.

Yes, because those overinflated BTO prices don't translate to value later on. They will be worth more, but not proportionally more to what you originally paid.

Apple's BTO prices are criminal.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Well of course that's the reason - I don't think anyone believes otherwise. Some of us just don't understand why folks get so worked up over it. xxx configuration costs xxx. It either works for you or it doesn't. If not, vote with your wallet.

Uh, I believe otherwise. And so do you, because you said it. People vote with their wallets. And a lot of people happily buy and use Macs with 8GB of RAM. If they didn't, Apple wouldn't sell them. It's that simple.

 

[dmr727]

Uh, I believe otherwise. And so do you, because you said it. People vote with their wallets. And a lot of people happily buy and use Macs with 8GB of RAM. If they didn't, Apple wouldn't sell them. It's that simple.

Sure some people are fine with 8GB, but I'd bet a bigger slice of the pie comes from folks that hold their nose and pony up for the upgrades. The baseline machines exist to hit a price point that Apple deems attractive, knowing that most will end up pulling the trigger on configurations with higher margins. If they actually sell a bunch of 8GB systems, so much the better.

 

[Analog Kid]

Sure some people are fine with 8GB, but I'd bet a bigger slice of the pie comes from folks that hold their nose and pony up for the upgrades. The baseline machines exist to hit a price point that Apple deems attractive, knowing that most will end up pulling the trigger on configurations with higher margins. If they actually sell a bunch of 8GB systems, so much the better.

And yet Apple manufactures and stocks the 8GB units in volume for quick sale and adds friction to the BTO options.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a marketplace.

Too many people enter this conversation following logic along the lines of: "I don't want an 8GB unit" -> "Nobody would want an 8GB unit" -> "The 8GB unit doesn't make sense if nobody wants it" -> "There must be an ulterior motive".

If you allow yourself to reconsider that first leap of logic then things look quite different.

 

[dmr727]

And yet Apple manufactures and stocks the 8GB units in volume for quick sale and adds friction to the BTO options.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a marketplace.

Too many people enter this conversation following logic along the lines of: "I don't want an 8GB unit" -> "Nobody would want an 8GB unit" -> "The 8GB unit doesn't make sense if nobody wants it" -> "There must be an ulterior motive".

If you allow yourself to reconsider that first leap of logic then things look quite different.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just business. Lots of industries have a bargain basement model/service to get feet in the door.

 

[Analog Kid]

It's not a conspiracy, it's just business. Lots of industries have a bargain basement model/service to get feet in the door.

And yet Apple manufactures and stocks the 8GB units in volume for quick sale where the feet are and adds friction to the BTO options by telling people they'll have to delay their gratification.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

It's not a conspiracy, it's just business. Lots of industries have a bargain basement model/service to get feet in the door.

If the volume was buying other configurations, they would be the ones in stock, as the person you're replying to is trying to say. The literal opposite is true. Base models are the easiest to get, and the quickest available. Anyone can walk out with a base model. Any other configuration is difficult to get. Apple wouldn't do that if their intention was to upsell anyone.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Sure some people are fine with 8GB, but I'd bet a bigger slice of the pie comes from folks that hold their nose and pony up for the upgrades. The baseline machines exist to hit a price point that Apple deems attractive, knowing that most will end up pulling the trigger on configurations with higher margins. If they actually sell a bunch of 8GB systems, so much the better.

The data doesn't support that. At all. Base model systems are always the ones in stock and readily available. The BTO configs take time to get. They are not stocked. Reality doesn't agree with this theory about Apple trying to upsell.

 

[dmr727]

The data doesn't support that. At all. Base model systems are always the ones in stock and readily available. The BTO configs take time to get. They are not stocked. Reality doesn't agree with this theory about Apple trying to upsell.

Okay, I can buy that. But show me the data - how many baseline models are sold vs. the others, and what is the resulting revenue from each? Being in stock and available doesn't tell me anything about how many are actually being sold.

 

[dumastudetto]

Anyone who does actual real work (any "pro" user) will be extremely limited by 8GB RAM. These have "Pro" in the name, 16GB should be minimum. 8GB for a lower tier product like a MacBook Air, sure. It's actually insane that 8GB is still the base RAM for these, my 10 year old MBP has 8GB RAM and that wasn't even high end at the time.

I've seen videos (i.e. Tailosive Tech on YouTube) editing large video files in Final Cut using an M1 with 8GB RAM. The RAM inside these Apple Silicon Macs is architected very different to the stuff that's in your 10 year old MBP. The Apple SoC can seamlessly use the onboard storage with little performance penalty for example.