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JMacHack

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Mar 16, 2017
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My point previously, that seems to have got lost, and is relevant to this is that the Mac apps are not as good as windows on intel.
Lemme just call up my former classmates from my graphic design courses and ask how many are using PC versions of Adobe Suite over Mac. I'm gonna bet it's not many.

Speaking of which, after hours of figuring out why Photoshop wouldn't do some lighting effects on my mom's XPS 15 every month or so, she gave up and traded it for a 16 inch MacBook Pro.

You have zero clue what you're talking about, and make it blatantly more apparent with every post.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,517
19,664
There is no office for Apple silicon.

Full desktop versions of Office, Photoshop and other “big” apps will be available at the release of ARM Macs. This has already been confirmed.

I’m not even sure why MS would bother. This isn’t exactly a platform with millions of users. Who would buy Apple silicon right now? Only the most loyal apple fans. Most devs won’t bother with it and will continue to support intel versions instead.

Because they are not stupid. Macs represent a very healthy portion of premium computers and Mac users are the ones more ready to pay money for software. And Intel Macs are a dead platform, Apple made that very clear. Sure, Intel will be supported for a while, but new money is with ARM Macs. Devs who miss the opportunity will be left out as their competitors will get in to full the void.
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
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Lemme just call up my former classmates from my graphic design courses and ask how many are using PC versions of Adobe Suite over Mac. I'm gonna bet it's not many.

Speaking of which, after hours of figuring out why Photoshop wouldn't do some lighting effects on my mom's XPS 15 every month or so, she gave up and traded it for a 16 inch MacBook Pro.

You have zero clue what you're talking about, and make it blatantly more apparent with every post.

Er, I am a designer but I don’t use Adobe much - others are saying this on the Mac Pro forums, regarding adobe. I never specifically went on about that..

Try however [because I have 100% clues what I am talking about as I do this professionally]

Rhino 3D - vastly superior and quicker on bootcamp than macos
Fusion 360 - fast on bootcamp and more stable than macos
Autocad - faster on bootcamp
Twinmotion - faster on bootcamp
Office- desktop design far better on windows and more feature rich

All MacOS versions of their windows counterparts above are inferior to the windows versions on the exact same hardware. Now figure that one out.
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
2,429
2,186
Er, I am a designer but I don’t use Adobe much - others are saying this on the Mac Pro forums, regarding adobe. I never specifically went on about that..

Try however [because I have 100% clues what I am talking about as I do this professionally]

Rhino 3D - vastly superior and quicker on bootcamp than macos
Fusion 360 - fast on bootcamp and more stable than macos
Autocad - faster on bootcamp
Twinmotion - faster on bootcamp
Office- desktop design far better on windows and more feature rich

All MacOS versions of their windows counterparts above are inferior to the windows versions on the exact same hardware. Now figure that one out.

I am adding this.

I am unsure why people have to get defensive / arguing about certain things in regards Apple.
I use both PC and Mac and love apple for many many reasons and don’t have the same affinity to windows at all [i see it as a pure tool].

However, the mac does not perform well in any of the apps I list. I honestly hope this improves with AS, but the point is this.

If developers have not developed great apps for intel macs, are they going to do so for AS. I don’t believe they put the same resources into mac apps as they do window counterparts for quite obvious reasons.

This however is why I am not investing anything in Apple for the near term until the outcome becomes more clear.
Buying a new imac is investing in the end of line, and not the new. It is a cautious approach and doesn’t make sense to me.
The Apple apps like Final Cut Pro, Logic etc will all be great on Apple Silicon its just everything else I am more concerned about.

It has nothing to do with Apple but third party developers and their decisions.
 
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Joelist

macrumors 6502
Jan 28, 2014
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Illinois
Really?

They showed FULL FEATURED Office for Mac 2020 running natively on Apple Silicon - and running nice and fast too. FULL FEATURED Adobe Creative Suite running natively on Apple Silicon. Autodesk has all its products currently as Universal so they are easy to retarget to be native on Apple silicon and run right now on Rosetta very nicely.


Apple is not dumb. They waited to make this move until they both had all the major professional tools ready natively and had Rosetta 2 ready for prine time.
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
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Really?

They showed FULL FEATURED Office for Mac 2020 running natively on Apple Silicon - and running nice and fast too. FULL FEATURED Adobe Creative Suite running natively on Apple Silicon. Autodesk has all its products currently as Universal so they are easy to retarget to be native on Apple silicon and run right now on Rosetta very nicely.


Apple is not dumb. They waited to make this move until they both had all the major professional tools ready natively and had Rosetta 2 ready for prine time.

they don’t have the major professional tools running very well on intel so why are they going to all of a sudden run well on AS? And especially so on Rosetta 2.

I would love to be proven otherwise and will be very happy if I am, but there is no way am I going into this transition phase with blind faith on 3rd party apps.

I 100% believe Apple will do their best, BigSur will be awesome and also AS will be great. However, this doesn’t mean developers will move quickly / do a great job etc. to re-do software that they obviously don’t care that much about anyway.

It can go either way I guess, so none of us know anything.
 

Joelist

macrumors 6502
Jan 28, 2014
463
373
Illinois
Sorry to break it to you but all these toopls ran just fine on Intel on Mac. Our Office users have no issues at all and neither do our marketing people who use Creative Suite. Office for Mac has been extremely good for a while now really the only couple of features still missing only have a tiny user base.

Apple knows what their professional users use, and clearly has prioritized those tools to be ready natively first.
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
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Stargate Command
Yeah, plenty of folks using Macs & pro apps on macOS to make a living.

Gotta love it when a Mac hater comes in & declares Windows is the best thing since sliced bread & can do no wrong, based solely on their opinion...
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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Mac users will be starved of professional apps.

It kind of depends on the field. If I understand correctly, most tools you mention are related to CAD or 3D content creation in some way. This has indeed been a field where Mac has been underperforming, most likely because the poor traditional graphics support (can't build a complex CAD editor with the OpenGL historically provided). Apple Silicon could potentially change that — faster GPUs and unified memory could allow some CAD applications that are unachievable on other platforms, such as true simultaneous use of CPU and GPU on the same data. I think if Apple Silicon shows a big performance jump, we might see some software devs moving in to fill this void.

As to the other productivity fields: photo/video/audio editing, software development etc., Mac is doing quite strong there and will continue to do so. One challenge will developing x86 code on the new Macs (but Rosetta will help), but then again, I expect it to be a bit factor in a surge of popularity for ARM-based cloud computers.
 

cardfan

macrumors 601
Mar 23, 2012
4,431
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Full desktop versions of Office, Photoshop and other “big” apps will be available at the release of ARM Macs. This has already been confirmed.



Because they are not stupid. Macs represent a very healthy portion of premium computers and Mac users are the ones more ready to pay money for software. And Intel Macs are a dead platform, Apple made that very clear. Sure, Intel will be supported for a while, but new money is with ARM Macs. Devs who miss the opportunity will be left out as their competitors will get in to full the void.

Intel macs are dead? There’s millions of them and zero Apple silicon. Intel macs already have little support. Apple silicon will have much less. Good luck finding anything to run on Apple silicon in the next few years that are desktop class level. At the very least it makes a lot of sense to wait several years before buying anything with an apple cpu if ever.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,517
19,664
Intel macs are dead? There’s millions of them and zero Apple silicon. Intel macs already have little support. Apple silicon will have much less. Good luck finding anything to run on Apple silicon in the next few years that are desktop class level. At the very least it makes a lot of sense to wait several years before buying anything with an apple cpu if ever.

Yes, Intel iMacs are dead. In two years, no new Intel iMacs will be sold. It will of course take a while for the old machines to be phased out completely, but the ratio of Apple Silicon Macs to Intel Macs will probably be 2:1 in about 5 years, seeking conservatively. And if the projections are correct and Apple Silicon Macs will have on average 50% faster CPUs and 100% faster GPUs, people will start upgrading soon. If I can shave down just 20% off my scripts running time, I will definitely get an AS Mac at the first opportunity.

As to the software, you are just ignoring facts. As it has been stated repeatedly, popular software packages will be available from day one.
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
2,429
2,186
Yeah, plenty of folks using Macs & pro apps on macOS to make a living.

Gotta love it when a Mac hater comes in & declares Windows is the best thing since sliced bread & can do no wrong, based solely on their opinion...

Haha - 20 years a mac user and remain so. You just read what you want to read, and ignore what I am actually saying.

HERE IT IS AGAIN IN BIG LETTERS FOR YOU.

THE PRO APPS I LISTED DO NOT RUN AS WELL IN MAC OS AS THEY DO IN WINDOWS.

SIMPLE ?

Try running a business battling this. Yes there are loads of pro apps that are great on MacOS, no one questioned that, I was highlighting the fact that a lot of pro 3D and CAD apps are not great on the mac, and with the transition to AS I am concerned it will get worse.
So I got a PC to ensure my business can remain in business, as investing in Intel Macs is buying end of line computers, plus it is a lot faster for rendering without spending a fortune on a Mac Pro.

That OK for you, or do you require more business reasons? FFS
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,010
8,443
All MacOS versions of their windows counterparts above are inferior to the windows versions on the exact same hardware. Now figure that one out.

Not hard to figure: Apple/Adobe et. al. "invented" (or at least copied from The Mother of All Demos) - DTP, photographic work, music production (well, nod to Atari there) and non-linear video editing back in the 80s and 90s. CAD and 3D modelling were older, already established ideas - albeit on hyper-expensive graphical workstations - that even Macs couldn't hack in the 80s and came to PCs when the Mac was already on the wane (ISTR it was the Amiga, with Lightwave etc. that "broke" 3D on personal computer hardware).

So, even if its technological lead is gone, Apple is still widely used in the areas where it has an historical foothold, so developers have an incentive to do a proper job of supporting those areas.

Apple haven't sold a credible, up-to-date Pro Mac since the original "cheesegrater" Mac Pro was left to go to seed about 2010. The "cylinder" was a washout, the iMac Pro had "dead end" written all over it (why do you want your hyper-expensive Xeon workstation sealed inside a glossy pro-sumer display?) and the new Mac Pro's business model is "If you're totally locked in to FCPx or Logic Pro, look how much money we can wring out of you for a grotesquely over-engineered Xeon tower". They're really not lifting a finger to sell "pro" Mac equipment to new customers or expand out of their traditional photo/video/audio niche.

Bottom line: outside photo/video/audio there probably just isn't the customer base to make it worth developers' while to spend too much time and effort on optimising their products for Mac, if at all... and for 3D, that's especially true given the limited choice of graphics hardware on Macs (along with Apple's feud with NVIDIA and depreciation of anything that isn't Metal). If your Mac version is good enough to let the Boss in the Corner Office look at the files on their MacBook Air, then you're probably sorted.

...but then, what's the problem? If your primary requirement is CAD or 3D software that is better supported on PC, getting a PC is absolutely the sensible decision. Why pay a premium for Apple hardware - who's Unique Selling Point is the ability to run MacOS - and then have it spend all its time running Windows, with all the added hassle of Bootcamp or virtualization software? Also, the more "pro" you get then the more likely is that the CAD machine will spend its days doing CAD. The scenario where the same person might produce some plans in CAD, render them to a 3D walkthough... then switch over to FCPx to add captions and effects, then fire up Logic to write the musical score... probably isn't that common.

None of this is really relevant to Apple Silicon. The major effort in porting software is changing operating system - especially if you want a native-looking UI and support for Metal, the Accelerator framework etc. Only a small subset of the code in a small subset of apps actually cares about the CPU type (esp. when all the targets are 64 bit, little-endian and built using the same compilers). Any applications which will never make the jump to AS probably had one foot in the grave anyway (if they haven't already been killed by the dropping of 32 bit in Catalina).

What Apple Silicon does represent is a chance of improving things: it is now over to Apple to deliver MacBook Air-sized machines that outperform full-sized laptops, Mac Minis and iMacs with integrated GPUs that run rings around on-board discreet GPUs and a Mac Pro with supercomputer-level performance from zillions of cores packed with on-die acceleration technology. Oh, and at lower prices, too :) We haven't seen that yet, but (unless you bury your head in the sand) there's plenty of evidence from the performance of the A12Z and Amazon et. al's forays into server-class ARM chips to suggest that it is feasible.

If Apple succeed - then they'll have a Mac platform that can offer genuine technical advantages over PC and might even be able to start tempting new customers into the fold. If they don't try - then they'd be stuck selling Intel- or AMD-based PC clones in shiny aluminium boxes with no hardware advantage over the competition.

Is it a pity that AS Macs won't run x86 windows? Of course... but if AS lives up to its promises then that could be a price worth paying. Besides - it's not 2006 any more and "buying a PC" to run PC software doesn't mean another big sweaty beige box - it could be a tablet, a NUC, or a remotely-accessed PC anywhere between your basement and the far reaches of the cloud...
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
3,173
Stargate Command
Haha - 20 years a mac user and remain so. You just read what you want to read, and ignore what I am actually saying.

HERE IT IS AGAIN IN BIG LETTERS FOR YOU.

THE PRO APPS I LISTED DO NOT RUN AS WELL IN MAC OS AS THEY DO IN WINDOWS.

SIMPLE ?

Try running a business battling this. Yes there are loads of pro apps that are great on MacOS, no one questioned that, I was highlighting the fact that a lot of pro 3D and CAD apps are not great on the mac, and with the transition to AS I am concerned it will get worse.
So I got a PC to ensure my business can remain in business, as investing in Intel Macs is buying end of line computers, plus it is a lot faster for rendering without spending a fortune on a Mac Pro.

That OK for you, or do you require more business reasons? FFS

Yeah, gonna need to see your business taxes for the past twenty years... ;^p

Chill bro...!

Me, I've been using Apple computers for 40+ years, since the Apple ][ days...

My first Apple "Pro" use was a Media 100 system in a 9500 with a whopping 64GB of RAM, this was the late 1990's! Current 3D interests are Cinema4D & Octane X, and I would like to tackle Houdini at some point. I have worked (from the IT guy setup/support side of things) with ArchiCAD on OS X, but some folks are really stuck on AutoCAD, so I had a handful of iMacs running AutoCAD thru Boot Camp.

Yeah, there are some pro apps on Mac that are worse than their Windows counterparts, but there are some good ones as well. And some of us just like the Mac interface!
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
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Not hard to figure: Apple/Adobe et. al. "invented" (or at least copied from The Mother of All Demos) - DTP, photographic work, music production (well, nod to Atari there) and non-linear video editing back in the 80s and 90s. CAD and 3D modelling were older, already established ideas - albeit on hyper-expensive graphical workstations - that even Macs couldn't hack in the 80s and came to PCs when the Mac was already on the wane (ISTR it was the Amiga, with Lightwave etc. that "broke" 3D on personal computer hardware).

Late 1990's, like RIGHT before the turn of the century; base model SGI O2 & base Maya software, multiple 10s of thousands of dollars! And hyper-expensive maintenance contracts for both hardware & software! Good times...

The scenario where the same person might produce some plans in CAD, render them to a 3D walkthough... then switch over to FCPx to add captions and effects, then fire up Logic to write the musical score... probably isn't that common.

Wait a minute... I'm the only one using a virtual orchestra to score my Keynote presentations...?

...Mac Pro with supercomputer-level performance from zillions of cores packed with on-die acceleration technology.

Yes, please...!

...big sweaty beige box...

LOL
 

hans1972

macrumors 68040
Apr 5, 2010
3,757
3,391
There is no office for Apple silicon. I’m not even sure why MS would bother. This isn’t exactly a platform with millions of users. Who would buy Apple silicon right now? Only the most loyal apple fans. Most devs won’t bother with it and will continue to support intel versions instead.

I think you misunderstand what it takes to support macOS on ARM.

All you have to do is this following

1. Open your existing code for your Mac-application
2. Compile it for ARM
3. Fix what did't work
4. Repeat 2 and 3 until things work to your satisfaction

Some applications will compile and run without any problems. Many applications will require no more than a few days of work. Probably only small set of applications would require significant work.
 
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hans1972

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Apr 5, 2010
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Most Mac versions of pro Design / CAD/ rendering / office apps are not as good as their windows counterparts right now. I am not holding my breath to see what happens.

If the applications you use are not good enough today, you should switch to Windows completely independently on what kind of CPU a Mac runs.

A new CPU/GPU architecture will not make the applications more functional, and the only thing you could hope for is a performance increase if Apple's SOCs are spectacular.
 
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hans1972

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Apr 5, 2010
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Yes there are loads of pro apps that are great on MacOS, no one questioned that, I was highlighting the fact that a lot of pro 3D and CAD apps are not great on the mac, and with the transition to AS I am concerned it will get worse.

No, your first statement was: "Mac users will be starved of professional apps.".

By having browsers, email clients, Teams, Office, Adobe applications, Final Cut Pro, Xcode available natively a huge majority of professional users will have applications they use ready to use.

Those applications who has not been compiled and fixed for ARM, will in most cases run fine through Rosetta 2.

The quality of the applications are a very different discussion than availability.
 
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Trhodezy

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2010
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There is no office for Apple silicon. I’m not even sure why MS would bother. This isn’t exactly a platform with millions of users. Who would buy Apple silicon right now? Only the most loyal apple fans. Most devs won’t bother with it and will continue to support intel versions instead.

You sound very similar to one very, very misled former CEO of Microsoft, when talking about the newly unveiled iPhone.
 

Cookie18

macrumors 6502a
Sep 11, 2014
584
684
France
As someone who has a Surface Pro X this whole app concern is hilarious. There's so little that needs to be ported over for 90% of people and Apple has announced the other 9% is also coming lol. The rest of the bits and pieces will work with emulation and will be available natively with time.
 
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ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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I really hope the developers who make my current apps get on board as I cannot find a shred of evidence they are moving to AS !
It’s good that MS will have office, but is that just the iOS version on steroids or new? I bet the former.

You would lose that bet. While it is true that the Apple Silicon Macs could in theory run the iOS version of Office, it was clearly stated that Microsoft is porting its desktop apps to Apple Silicon. The Office team already shares a lot of code between the desktop versions and and the mobile versions and given the compiler toolchain and apis will be basically the same, the port is unlikely to present too many challenges.

iOS apps already build on x86 and ARM architectures so its not like Apple and its developers aren't used to supporting both.
 
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