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ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
760
1,249
And currently I cannot do the same test. I have not had boot camp since I accidentally upgraded to win10 just to realize that some win graphic drivers did not support my 2011 iMac anymore. When* I get an external, 1000GB TB3 SSD for my new iMac I will do boot camp on that. Not gonna “infect” my internal drive with that windows stuff ;-)

(*) damn these are expensive!

Edit: several typos. Small screen and very early morning and only on first cup of coffee
 

ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
760
1,249
Thanks :). Actually, I did include a result with Pages. Not surprisingly (both since since it is written by Apple for Apple, and since it's a lighter program with much less functionality than Word), it was quite a bit faster.

I'd really like to retest with the current versions of Word for Mac and Windows. I could try installing Bootcamp and Office, but that would be a bit of a project.
Whoops! Missed that ;-)
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
And currently I cannot do the same test. I have not had boot camp since I accidentally upgraded to win10 just to realize that some win graphic drivers did not support my 2011 iMac anymore. When* I get an external, 1000GB TB3 SSD for my new iMac I will do boot camp on that. Not gonna “infect” my internal drive with that windows stuff ;-)

(*) damn these are expensive!

Edit: several typos. Small screen and very early morning and only on first cup of coffee
I'll look forward to hearing your results!

[Just noticed your sig—thought it was hilarious you lumped your wife and kids together with your computer equipment. :D]
 

ninecows

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2012
760
1,249
I'll look forward to hearing your results!

[Just noticed your sig—thought it was hilarious you lumped your wife and kids together with your computer equipment. :D]

ha ha... yup. I thought it was fair since I spend like 90% of my spare time with them. 9% on various things needed to be fixed in the house and <1% with my Mac.
Perhaps I can persuade my better half to buying that SSD from our common expense account, now that I promised you guys the test:cool:?
 

mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
Interestingly, as I understand it, the Office-for-Mac programs weren't developed for Windows and then ported to OSX, so that wouldn't explain the difference in performance. For instance, Excel for Mac preceeded Excel for Windows. And the first Word for Mac was a different program from the first Word for Windows, with (at least according to Wikipedia) a WYSIWYG interface the Windows version lacked. I.e., I think that, in general, Office for Mac was developed directly for the Mac.

The history you're talking about happened in the mid-1980s. The computing world looked very different then, and not much from that time is still relevant today. In fact, it only took about 10 years for things to change in a huge way.

In 1985, when Excel 1.0 was released as a Mac-only program, Windows was horrible me-too junk that nobody used. When they released the first PC version of Excel in 1987, Microsoft sold it primarily as a DOS program. It was actually a Windows program, bundled with an Excel-only Windows shell. You'd run EXCEL.EXE from the DOS command prompt and that would start the bundled copy of Windows just to run Excel, then it would quit out of Windows when you were done using Excel. This bundling was necessary because the audience interested in Excel on PCs was far larger than the audience interested in paying for full standalone Windows just to run Excel -- that's just how relevant Windows was in 1987.

Just 10 years later, in 1997, Windows had won, Win95 was an incredible success, and Microsoft was a true monopolist. After years of overpriced blah products and failed (but very expensive) attempts to replace the rapidly aging technology at the core of MacOS, Apple was close to bankruptcy, and had just made a desperation play to acquire NeXT, which came with an infamous executive named Steve who had yet to lose the stink of his previous departure from Apple. Nobody knew if that acquisition would actually work out, and in fact the smart money was on it not doing so.

By that timeframe, it wasn't true that the Mac versions of Excel and Word were the reference and the Windows versions the copies. Microsoft was putting far more resources into the Windows versions, and the Mac versions needed to have stuff backported to keep up.

In fact, one of the key events in Jobs' return to Apple concerned the future of Mac Office. Rumors were swirling that Microsoft was going to drop it, and why wouldn't they? Macs were less than 5% of the personal computer market, it couldn't be very profitable for Microsoft. Then Apple won a lawsuit against Microsoft based on QuickTime patents. In the settlement negotiations, Jobs got two concessions out of Microsoft: one, Microsoft purchased a big chunk of nonvoting Apple stock and made a public statement expressing confidence in the future of the company, and two, Microsoft committed to several years of providing Mac Office (and maybe Internet Explorer too? I don't remember clearly).

These were huge deals at the time. Apple was in serious financial trouble and the stock purchase raised some cash, and the assurance that Mac Office wasn't going away soon put to rest one of the most obvious death-spiral scenarios for the Mac.

Getting back to the main topic - Microsoft absolutely had more resources behind the Windows versions at that time, and had been doing that for many years. Mac Office was poorly maintained, rarely at feature parity with Windows and never at performance or stability parity. (This was all part of why everyone feared that Mac Office was just going to be dropped altogether.)
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
It has both positive and negative affects .

By this step Apple can lead the industry as it will no longer rely on Intel .

But there will be a lot less Applications to begin with .

Pros: Faster macOS applications; Faster Macs, Macs that run less hot

Cons: No Boot Camp, questionable Windows-on-Mac-via-virtualization future

Personally, I'm going to miss Internet Recovery and Target Disk Mode (Mac Sharing Mode simply isn't the same).
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
....

Personally, I'm going to miss Internet Recovery and Target Disk Mode (Mac Sharing Mode simply isn't the same).

Did Apple explicitly say they were getting rid of Internet Recovery ? They are introducing System Recovery and thereby should substantively reduce the need for Internet Recovery , but it is still stored on the same storage drive. Major storage drive failure and still out of luck. The APFS move to put macOS recovery inside the single APFS container with the main host macOS instance puts that container in a single point of failure danger. So it sounded like Apple just put another container on the same drive. Still have a single point of failure with the device.

System Recovery is still going to drag a new macOS image down from the Apple Mothership. The GUI might look different but it would basically be doing about the same thing. (the difference lies more in the primary storage drive failure status. Internet recovery doesn't need any internal drive to work. ).

Pragmatically since increasingly more Mac systems drives are soldered to the logic board a major drive failure means that Apple Configurator 2 will come into play because have to install a new logic board and reset the security enclave in the new board. ( Or at best reset the security enclave to re-pair with some new daughter card modules ( SSD modules) ) . So there are fewer paths where can have fixed the failed drive without having to loop in another Mac with Configurator installed to do the downloading work.

Apple may have shrunk the firmware so that can't pull down a boot image from internet securely (or securely enough for Apple's standards) . They didn't overtly say Internet Recovery was entirely replaced. If they "replaced it" with Configurator 2 that isn't so much of a replacement as much as acknowledgement of having painted users into a new corner. Users can't get to new, blank primarily internal drive without going through Apple.
 

Realityck

macrumors G4
Nov 9, 2015
11,409
17,202
Silicon Valley, CA
I still like to see some actual tests of lab iMacs rather than only the DTK being tested as a reference point and and the A14 speed bench tests.
 
Last edited:

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Did Apple explicitly say they were getting rid of Internet Recovery ? They are introducing System Recovery and thereby should substantively reduce the need for Internet Recovery , but it is still stored on the same storage drive. Major storage drive failure and still out of luck. The APFS move to put macOS recovery inside the single APFS container with the main host macOS instance puts that container in a single point of failure danger. So it sounded like Apple just put another container on the same drive. Still have a single point of failure with the device.

System Recovery is still going to drag a new macOS image down from the Apple Mothership. The GUI might look different but it would basically be doing about the same thing. (the difference lies more in the primary storage drive failure status. Internet recovery doesn't need any internal drive to work. ).

Pragmatically since increasingly more Mac systems drives are soldered to the logic board a major drive failure means that Apple Configurator 2 will come into play because have to install a new logic board and reset the security enclave in the new board. ( Or at best reset the security enclave to re-pair with some new daughter card modules ( SSD modules) ) . So there are fewer paths where can have fixed the failed drive without having to loop in another Mac with Configurator installed to do the downloading work.

Apple may have shrunk the firmware so that can't pull down a boot image from internet securely (or securely enough for Apple's standards) . They didn't overtly say Internet Recovery was entirely replaced. If they "replaced it" with Configurator 2 that isn't so much of a replacement as much as acknowledgement of having painted users into a new corner. Users can't get to new, blank primarily internal drive without going through Apple.

They did explicitly say that Internet Recovery wouldn't be present. They did NOT explicitly say that System Recovery wouldn't operate similarly to Internet Recovery; just that it wasn't Internet Recovery as we've known it on 2010-2020 Intel Macs. I think their answer to the whole "how to do you restore System Recovery if it lives on the same storage medium as the primary boot volume" is that if System Recovery gets damaged, it can be repaired with Configurator 2 and/or via re-installing via bootable external media.

I'm not too thrilled about Internet Recovery being displaced like that. It was always a super simple way to load an OS onto a blank drive. Also, so long as time wasn't of the essence, it made it easy to be lazy and not make a USB bootable installer if all you really wanted to do was reload the latest macOS version.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
I should fix that for you. Mac users will be starved of professional apps.


I see so many people banging on about Pro apps on Windows. 90% of Windows users use MS Office and a browser and literally nothing else. At home, school or work. Yes there is a lot of Windows apps but I think people overestimate the scope of most of them.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
They did explicitly say that Internet Recovery wouldn't be present. They did NOT explicitly say that System Recovery wouldn't operate similarly to Internet Recovery; just that it wasn't Internet Recovery as we've known it on 2010-2020 Intel Macs.

Err no. They did explicitly talk about System Recovery's abilities.. From the transcript.

"...
On Apple Silicon Macs, we are introducing System Recovery. It's a minimal macOS environment installed in a separate hidden container.

It enables you to restore your Mac by reinstalling macOS and macOS Recovery.

Apple Configurator 2 will continue to be supported. It will allow you to recover your Mac when System Recovery itself is not functional. ... "

If System Recovery is even smaller than macOS Recovery where do you think they are getting the "full installation" of macOS from? Yeah, there is a little bit of common sense necessary there, but it is extremely likely coming from the Internet. Just like macOS Recovery would get it. And just like Internet Recovery does.

I think their answer to the whole "how to do you restore System Recovery if it lives on the same storage medium as the primary boot volume" is that if System Recovery gets damaged, it can be repaired with Configurator 2 and/or via re-installing via bootable external media.

On the bootable external media I have a feeling there are going to be authentication limitations there. However, Configurator 2 points to the "game changing" and not being able to get to blank slate internal drive without there having been a problem.


I'm not too thrilled about Internet Recovery being displaced like that. It was always a super simple way to load an OS onto a blank drive. Also, so long as time wasn't of the essence, it made it easy to be lazy and not make a USB bootable installer if all you really wanted to do was reload the latest macOS version.

Apple unsigning macOS versions on a more regular basis now makes those USDB bootable installers have a time clock on them these days. Apple needs to have a dynamic load options if they are regularly going to "take out" the USB installers over time. And how much of the boot security mode is tied to the data on that internal disk (and/or secure enclave). Switching boot security mode requires authentication. Apple somewhat herds folks into the Internet install the latest version mode on all fronts.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
Err no. They did explicitly talk about System Recovery's abilities.. From the transcript.

"...
On Apple Silicon Macs, we are introducing System Recovery. It's a minimal macOS environment installed in a separate hidden container.

It enables you to restore your Mac by reinstalling macOS and macOS Recovery.

Apple Configurator 2 will continue to be supported. It will allow you to recover your Mac when System Recovery itself is not functional. ... "

If System Recovery is even smaller than macOS Recovery where do you think they are getting the "full installation" of macOS from? Yeah, there is a little bit of common sense necessary there, but it is extremely likely coming from the Internet. Just like macOS Recovery would get it. And just like Internet Recovery does.



On the bootable external media I have a feeling there are going to be authentication limitations there. However, Configurator 2 points to the "game changing" and not being able to get to blank slate internal drive without there having been a problem.




Apple unsigning macOS versions on a more regular basis now makes those USDB bootable installers have a time clock on them these days. Apple needs to have a dynamic load options if they are regularly going to "take out" the USB installers over time. And how much of the boot security mode is tied to the data on that internal disk (and/or secure enclave). Switching boot security mode requires authentication. Apple somewhat herds folks into the Internet install the latest version mode on all fronts.

I think you might be arguing semantics here. The only way to have full installation assets for macOS is to make an external bootable installer using createrestoremedia or some other third party utility designed to do the same things createinstallmedia does. Internet Recovery and booting to Recovery HD always involved getting the vast majority of the installation assets over the Internet. This replacement is no different. And I never said it was. The only difference is that where Internet Recovery will drop down the latest version of the target OS's Recovery HD environment and doesn't rely on the storage medium to be able to boot, this new thing seems to still leverage the boot drive, which increases the points of failure resulting in not being able to boot/reinstall one's copy of macOS. It also doesn't seem to keep itself up to date outside of updating the OS/firmware. Not sure how that's better than 2010-2020 Intel Mac Internet Recovery...
 

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
I still like to see some actual tests of lab iMacs rather than only the DTK being tested as a reference point and and the A14 speed bench tests.
Yup.
But that is unlikely to happen before they are actually shipping to customers. Under normal circumstances I can see the value of Apple secrecy, but in this case I think they would make everyone a service, including themselves, if they actually revealed their transition roadmap in some detail. It’s not as if they are going to change their hardware designs for the upcoming year anyway.
 

Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
Er, I am a designer but I don’t use Adobe much - others are saying this on the Mac Pro forums, regarding adobe. I never specifically went on about that..

I prefer Adobe on Mac personally.

But also, I am an audio engineer and I can tell you 100% that working with audio on a windows machine, especially with ProTools, is very annoying. Every time I go to a studio that uses a PC (very few do because it sucks) I’m always running into issues that macs simply don’t have. I also built my own custom PC About 4-5 years ago that was leaps and bounds better than my aging MacBook Pro, and I sold my PC because the experience on my MacBook Pro was so much better even if it had less processing power.

Just another perspective from an audio nerd.

If I has to guess, it really comes down to optimization. Adobe knows that a huge part of their customer base use Mac OS - same with ProTools. The apps you mentioned are probably used more often on windows machines so they aren’t as optimized for Mac OS.
 
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