How many would have preferred the old form factor with upgraded parts?

[ActionableMango]

Out of the following options in upgrading an old Mac Pro, how many are purchased from Apple or result in a payment of any other form to Apple?

1. CPU
2. GPU
3. RAM
4. SSD

Therein lies the reason for the end of the old form factor.

The old Mac Pro is a cash cow that keeps giving to everyone else apart from Apple.

There are plenty of people who would upgrade Apple GPUs if only Apple would bother to sell them!

I remember when that Sapphire Mac Edition card came out earlier this year there was tremendous demand and they sold out everywhere.

 

[Topper]

OK Apple it's 185 to 110. First one to 200 wins.

And the winner is...
Actually, I don't feel like I've won.

 

[slughead]

There are plenty of people who would upgrade Apple GPUs if only Apple would bother to sell them!

I remember when that Sapphire Mac Edition card came out earlier this year there was tremendous demand and they sold out everywhere.

Lies! nobody replaces their video card ever!

----------

And the winner is...
Actually, I don't feel like I've won.

And this is all with all the Apple fanboy-ism that permeates this forum.

 

[TheHateMachine]

http://gizmodo.com/this-samsung-ssd-runs-at-a-blistering-3-000mb-s-823656231

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/18/samsung-enterprise-ssd-nvme-xs1715/

http://www.zdnet.com/samsung-outs-super-fast-3000mbs-enterprise-ssd-7000018247/

Just like Reds and Revos but in a bay enclosure instead of a card. That is just odd.

However, as I think about it. This is actually better. For example I have a USDT from HP that has a 2 spare PCIE slots but you cannot plug anything into it as there is simply no room... but it can mount a 2.5 drive and have room for the cabling.

 

[SeattleMoose]

Good, all the "professional" whiners get their own thread.

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

 

[Tesselator]

What I'm going to be saying to nMP users in 2 years when these become commonplace:

If the MP price is as it should be then you'll be able to tell them to buy a new model MP which has that card built-in (if indeed they become commonplace that is).

 

[slughead]

If the MP price is as it should be then you'll be able to tell them to buy a new model MP which has that card built-in (if indeed they become commonplace that is).

Disposable computers! What will they think of next? You're also putting a lot of faith in Apple (and their prices).

Meanwhile, I can run this in my gaming PC today, while you're waiting for the next incarnation of a computer whose current model isn't even out yet.

 

[Tesselator]

Disposable computers! What will they think of next? You're also putting a lot of faith in Apple (and their prices).

Meanwhile, I can run this in my gaming PC today, while you're waiting for the next incarnation of a computer whose current model isn't even out yet.

All true... Of course it'll cost you a zillion dollars to do so but hey...


I don't think the new design is all that disposable though. It's just that Apple took (back) control over the upgrade options is all. Also it's not really a case of "what will they think of next" when you consider that most computer designs have always been so. Besides the PC/XT/AT design I can't think of another of the hundreds of home computer designs which wasn't "disposable" as you call it. So actually it's the most common design approach - even if not the most (debatably) successful.

I think it's interesting that Apple nearly killed themselves doing this once before. They had to call in Steve and he saved them by first offering candy and then opening up the architecture enough to satisfy many/most/enough people. And now that Steve is gone they're back to their old self destructive tricks. It may not matter much this time because they have such strength with the iPhone-Pad-Pod and through the Apple (media) Store. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

 

[slughead]

I don't think the new design is all that disposable though. It's just that Apple took (back) control over the upgrade options is all.

Do you not see the contradiction? It seems like you're using wordplay to dance around a point you already made. The design is disposable because it cannot be upgraded and therefore has to be totally replaced to get, say, a better GPU. Want the latest high-speed storage? Again, you have to replace the whole machine.

This is what I mean by disposable: If you can't upgrade it, you have to replace it if you want a better system.

 

[flowrider]

This is what I mean by disposable: If you can't upgrade it, you have to replace it if you want a better system.

Best definition for the new Mac Pro that I've seen

Lou

 

[superdx]

EDIT: This is not correct, you can use off-the shelf GPU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1t7Rc9qFgI

Thanks for that, but there's another thread in this forum that says TB takes a giant hit on bandwidth, basically down to PCI-e x4 instead of x16, so it's not really a solution? Would love to be wrong about this.

 

[slughead]

Thanks for that, but there's another thread in this forum that says TB takes a giant hit on bandwidth, basically down to PCI-e x4 instead of x16, so it's not really a solution? Would love to be wrong about this.

We're talking about 2 different things.

I was talking about having a PCIe card plugged into the motherboard running at whatever speed (16x 3.0 ?) and dumping the video output into the thunderbolt bus. This is ONLY so you can use a thunderbolt monitor. the video I showed is basically demonstrating this concept. This results in NO throttling, but allows you to use a thunderbolt display. In fact, the software demonstrated in that video actually INCREASES the performance of discreet GPUs (off the shelf PCIe cards) by combining it with the integrated GPU.

This was merely a demonstration of how a non-Thunderbolt video card can run a thunderbolt display.

Others are talking about putting a PCIe card in a thunderbolt-pcie adapter chassis (like this overpriced piece of junk). Interestingly, putting a PCIe card in a thunderbolt chassis does NOT necessarily allow you to use a thunderbolt display. THIS is what they're talking about when they say PCIe over thunderbolt is 4x PCIe2.0 (2GBps). And you are correct, this results in bad bottlenecking.

 

[dyn]

This is what I mean by disposable: If you can't upgrade it, you have to replace it if you want a better system.

And that's exactly how nearly any company in the world sees its computers. They buy one, it has to last for 3 to 4 years. Then it's written off and they replace it. Not that many upgrade the machines and if they do it's usually memory. What they do mostly is replace parts when they are broken and that's when the Apple machines become a huge problem: they don't have a proper support contract for those 3 to 4 years like other companies have. For that very last reason and the fact that those machines usually are about the same in cost or even cheaper most companies don't buy Macs.

Simply put: the upgrade argument doesn't stand a chance when it comes to actual companies. It only applies to us prosumers and hobbyists who don't replace their machines every 3 to 4 years. We upgrade so we have the newest stuff for the lowest price (it's cheaper to buy parts than an entire machine).

 

[slughead]

And that's exactly how nearly any company in the world sees it's computers.

Is that how YOU see computers? As disposable appliances?

I prefer to pay a little extra for quality, future-resistant parts. It saves tons of money (which I don't have).

Yeah, sure, some companies work this way. It saves money on tech monkeys who would be individually swapping out broken/obsolete components. The hospital I work for just swaps out the computers whenever the Dell Warranty expires, regardless of if the user needs any more power or has any issues.

 

[dyn]

Is that how YOU see computers? As disposable appliances?

Personally I see them as tools and toys. That's why sometimes I use them for years and sometimes I replace them after 1 year. I only replace them when they need to or when they come with something that I like very much (smaller form factor, significant improvement in battery life, things like that). It's the functionality of the entire device and in most cases even the entire product (thus hardware AND software) that I'm after. It's why I use Macs instead of an ordinary computer with Linux/Windows.

However, as a sysadmin I've seen various organisations and I know that it doesn't work like that in a company. They don't buy a computer, they buy a service that consists of hardware, software and support. The hardware usually lasts 3 to 4 years and then gets replaced. They hardly upgrade the hardware. Most of the time when they need some kind of upgrade the upgrades are hard to find/expensive or there will be multiple upgrades. In that case replacing the entire machine is cheaper and much quicker. Replacing the machines also means prevention (think failing hardware due to age). So yeah, in that sense the hardware itself has become a disposable device.

I prefer to pay a little extra for quality, future-resistant parts. It saves tons of money (which I don't have).

I usually buy something new and top it off to make it do what I want it to do. Then I use it until I find that it no longer does what it has to do. Usually I end up replacing it entirely. At the moment I don't require that much from my machines any more so they can last longer and be replaced when they start falling apart

Yeah, sure, some companies work this way. It saves money on tech monkeys who would be individually swapping out broken/obsolete components. The hospital I work for just swaps out the computers whenever the Dell Warranty expires, regardless of if the user needs any more power or has any issues.

Exactly. But that also means that the hardware has become disposable.

The virtualisation fanboys will also let you believe that hardware has become disposable and they are right to some extend. One of the biggest advantages of virtualisation is exactly that: you are no longer dependant on the hardware itself. No need to rebuild entire servers because you changed the hardware because it became old or it failed. The world of IT is now more aimed at appliances and services than hardware. Apple seems to be following that line as well (MBA, MBP Retina, the new Mac Pro, iPad). It has its advantages as well as disadvantages. How much something will cost you is one of the biggest issues.

 

[Tesselator]

Do you not see the contradiction? It seems like you're using wordplay to dance around a point you already made. The design is disposable because it cannot be upgraded and therefore has to be totally replaced to get, say, a better GPU. Want the latest high-speed storage? Again, you have to replace the whole machine.

This is what I mean by disposable: If you can't upgrade it, you have to replace it if you want a better system.

But in actuality you CAN upgrade it. It's just that you're limited to what Apple decides to supply in the way of upgrades. Just because they took full control of the upgrade options doesn't mean it's not upgradable at all.

So that's what I meant. As far as that drive you're talking about if indeed it really does become commonplace then probably/maybe Apple will offer one to replace the one that's in there now. The one it comes with is removable/upgradable ya know. And for that internal drive connection I guess there will be 3rd party options available.

Anyway, no dancing here... I can barely even boogie... but examining the entire image and also the image Apple is looking at slash presenting can help to speculate more accurately.

 

[slughead]

So that's what I meant. As far as that drive you're talking about if indeed it really does become commonplace then probably/maybe Apple will offer one to replace the one that's in there now. The one it comes with is removable/upgradable ya know. And for that internal drive connection I guess there will be 3rd party options available.

The first model will likely not be compatible with a 3GBps drive (I doubt that internal connection does more than 2GBps; that'd be a waste of PCIe lanes that the thing doesn't have), and I shudder to think of how much Apple would charge for such an upgrade. Again, likely you will have to swap the whole machine out just to get what PC users have had for months (years?).

One thing is for certain: They'll be nearly ubiquitous in the PC world before Apple adds them to their proprietary albatross they've got going on here.

 

[Tesselator]

The first model will likely not be compatible with a 3GBps drive (I doubt that internal connection does more than 2GBps; that'd be a waste of PCIe lanes that the thing doesn't have), and I shudder to think of how much Apple would charge for such an upgrade. Again, likely you will have to swap the whole machine out just to get what PC users have had for months (years?).

One thing is for certain: They'll be nearly ubiquitous in the PC world before Apple adds them to their proprietary albatross they've got going on here.

OK. But of course all that is assuming those cards even ever go main-stream. Maybe no one will buy them. There already are RAM-Drive cards which are VERY fast - and have been for years. Yet almost no one buys them because of their price. This new thing may be the same case.

So you're kinda taking an obscure example which may not be available to 99% of MP/PC users anyway and using that as an argument against the nMP? Mmm-K, sounds kinda weird to me. And isn't the card we're talking about currently vapor-ware right now?

 

[Phrygian]

looks like the majority has spoken, but it wont change anything.

The best I (we) can hope for is that we can ride out this model for the next one. Being that i'm on a 3.1 however, i'll be building a PC and dropping OSX for my new comp.

----------

If the MP price is as it should be then you'll be able to tell them to buy a new model MP which has that card built-in (if indeed they become commonplace that is).

Mac selling something at a reasonable market value? That was funny.

 

[dyn]

But in actuality you CAN upgrade it. It's just that you're limited to what Apple decides to supply in the way of upgrades. Just because they took full control of the upgrade options doesn't mean it's not upgradable at all.

That's like saying you have any colour as long as it's black. The Mac Pro never has been that upgradable as some want you to believe but I do agree that it looks like it will be worse with the Mac Pro when it comes to things like the videocard and onboard disk (storage can be used externally just like previously).

 

[slughead]

OK. But of course all that is assuming those cards even ever go main-stream.

Of course they will. Storage only gets faster, it's only a matter of time.

 

[Tesselator]

Of course they will. Storage only gets faster, it's only a matter of time.

Yeah, assuming we don't blow ourselves and the planet up beforehand then I guess something like that will be commonplace in about 6 to 8 years from now. Prior to that and for the foreseeable future anyway, they will be priced out of reach for all common users.

----------

Mac selling something at a reasonable market value? That was funny.

Hehe, yeah, in the historical context you have a 80% probability of being right about that. Unfortunate, but true.

Here's to cheering on that 20% exception Apple pulls once every 15 years or so.

 

[Korican100]

old form factor with anondized matte black coating

 

[slughead]

Yeah, assuming we don't blow ourselves and the planet up beforehand then I guess something like that will be commonplace in about 6 to 8 years from now. Prior to that and for the foreseeable future anyway, they will be priced out of reach for all common users.

Foreseeable future? Try 2 years, if SSD over SATA is any guide. In 2 years the price fell by 60%.

 

[mmomega]

For what I will use it for the MiniPro "should" be beastly..for me.
Photography, Video, just something quicker than the iMac.

I basically need a Super Mac Mini. The form factor is much easier to deal with as my home office desk is built in with not enough room to hide or store the current behemoth tower. (Pictured) Yeah when I was younger I wanted people to see the tower, lights, etc. Now so much anymore.... I've almost completely changed my older "computer ways" from building everything, modding cases, selling pre-built PC's to just let me buy something that I don't have to play with anymore.

I already have 20TB of externals, mix of USB2/3, TB drives maxing out my little MacMini's port. I hardly have any data stored on my local drive. No need for pulling and swapping internal drives anymore.

So this machine is (maybe, we'll see) a god send for someone like me who wants good power in a small form factor machine that's quiet and out of my site.