How will ARM affect music producers?

[UBS28]

Funny how some developers and hardware manufacturers (U-He, NI, RME, Apogee, MOTU, AAS, Synapse, Plogue, Korg, Spectrasonics, etc.) managed to be compatible with 64bit Catalina pretty quickly, while others were just spending time complaining and finding excuses, instead of updating their plugins and drivers as they should (especially that Apple announced the move to 64bit like a year or so before it actually happened)...

For me, if a company is not up-to date with products/drivers on Mac, I'd rather not invest in them at all, cause they do not take the platform seriously enough to be trusted long-term. Some even outright admitted to hate Apple and Apple users on public forums - like MELDA did on KVR.

It is not Apple, who is disabling your plugins, it is lazy or inept developers who can't get their crap together and don't give a damn about Mac platform...

There is no reason to drop 32-bit support so it is Apple their fault. It is Apple that tells everybody that you cannot have 32-bit apps.

And the Access Virus TI is a bit more complicated product then a standard plugin as it also depends on other 3rd party drivers which they have no control over.

Windows and Linux do a much better job in that sense as they do not break compatibility for no reason.

 

[profcutter]

I hate to side with Apple and their arbitrary decisions, but Macs have been 64-bit since 2006. I think 14 years is ample time to migrate code, even for small music developers. Why continue to support obsolete, outdated code that runs slower and less efficiently? 14 years is a looooong time.

 

[AlphaCentauri]

I hate to side with Apple and their arbitrary decisions, but Macs have been 64-bit since 2006. I think 14 years is ample time to migrate code, even for small music developers. Why continue to support obsolete, outdated code that runs slower and less efficiently? 14 years is a looooong time.

Exactly my line of thinking. Apple always announce those changes well in advance. Like now, 2 years notice about ARM transition. I’m sure that in 2022 we will have some developers COMPLETELY taken by surprise with this... ???

 

[Boil]

Just the lazy ones who don't want to do the work to transition...! ;^p

 

[JMacHack]

There is no reason to drop 32-bit support so it is Apple their fault. It is Apple that tells everybody that you cannot have 32-bit apps.

Switching to their own processors seems like a legitimate reason to me.

Windows and Linux do a much better job in that sense as they do not break compatibility for no reason.

Windows you can make a case for, Linux, not so much. While I don't deal with Linux much anymore, I do have plenty of friends that do, and boy howdy are they vocal when something breaks.

Likewise, Linux has plenty of problems that many people gloss over when talking about it. Watch Bryan Lunduke's videos on YouTube to get a good idea.

I hate to side with Apple and their arbitrary decisions, but Macs have been 64-bit since 2006. I think 14 years is ample time to migrate code, even for small music developers. Why continue to support obsolete, outdated code that runs slower and less efficiently? 14 years is a looooong time.

I agree, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.

Because the original programmer likely doesn't work at the company anymore, and didn't document his code very well or at all. Also, management doesn't make money from detangling old code, they make money by pushing new features. A disturbing amount of old code goes untouched simply because no one wants to mess with it, and isn't getting paid enough to do so. And then they hit a point like this which is "change or die" and now they have to scramble to fix things or abandon it.

 

[thisismyusername]

Good god. People are still complaining about dropping 32-bit support? Geez. Move on with the times and stop using ancient and abandoned software.

 

[jerryk]

Looks like I will have to go back to Windows and use something like Cubase again.

To me, it looks like OS X is a terrible platform as Apple dictates what software you are allowed to run (32-bit applications are not allowed anymore despite there being nothing wrong with it. And sooner or later, Intel cpu’s will not run on the latest OS anymore). Windows and Linux is much better than OS X in this respect.

X86 OSes like Windows want to dump 32 bit also. It limits that amount of people you can directly address to 4 GB without some sort of Page Address Extension (PAE) scheme which have some overhead.

And Linux distros already run on ARM systems.

 

[JayKay514]

With a new platform architecture, it's an opportunity to rethink things in a way that can really benefit producers.

DAWs are unique in that their workload tends to be "one track per thread" and when adding plugins, DSP becomes really important as effect chains are linear - you can't process them in parallel, except maybe in cases where you've frozen all tracks or are doing a mixdown to stereo, etc.

Right now I'm looking at jumping from Mac to an AMD Epyc-based workstation to take advantage of higher core counts and high speed PCIe 4.0 buses, but an Apple Silicon Mac might make me think twice about it.

What I'd want to see in a desktop-class or workstation-class SOC is:

• Much higher core/thread counts; 24, 32, 48, 64 cores + HT
• Much faster memory/cache systems to enable near-zero-latency recording
• Onboard dedicated audio DSP that's at least equivalent to a UAD-2 Octo card. Given the age of the SHARC processors used in the UAD cards, I don't think it's unreasonable to see 2x-4x+ Octo-card equivalents, if Apple put their mind to it. (also, this will help with lowering system latency)
• Lots of PCIe lanes (128-256) for internal expansion and external devices. Chaining lots of TB / USB-C interfaces, external processors, and at least 4x onboard M.2 SSD expansion slots, PCIe 4.0 or faster. (Not those weird proprietary kinds!)
• Maybe some use of those ML cores to create better "AI session players" or even a plugin that learns your playing style and replicates it? Will there be celebrity AI emulations?
• Something that can run *fanless and silent* for taking into the booth or use in a home studio where you don't have the luxury of a separate machine room

So what we're seeing here is the opportunity to get some incredible jumps in audio power, and enabling new kinds of features that give individual musicians much more capability and flexibility - and in theory in something the size of a MacBook Pro or iMac.

 

[Boil]

With a new platform architecture, it's an opportunity to rethink things in a way that can really benefit producers.

DAWs are unique in that their workload tends to be "one track per thread" and when adding plugins, DSP becomes really important as effect chains are linear - you can't process them in parallel, except maybe in cases where you've frozen all tracks or are doing a mixdown to stereo, etc.

Right now I'm looking at jumping from Mac to an AMD Epyc-based workstation to take advantage of higher core counts and high speed PCIe 4.0 buses, but an Apple Silicon Mac might make me think twice about it.

What I'd want to see in a desktop-class or workstation-class SOC is:

• Much higher core/thread counts; 24, 32, 48, 64 cores + HT
• Much faster memory/cache systems to enable near-zero-latency recording
• Onboard dedicated audio DSP that's at least equivalent to a UAD-2 Octo card. Given the age of the SHARC processors used in the UAD cards, I don't think it's unreasonable to see 2x-4x+ Octo-card equivalents, if Apple put their mind to it. (also, this will help with lowering system latency)
• Lots of PCIe lanes (128-256) for internal expansion and external devices. Chaining lots of TB / USB-C interfaces, external processors, and at least 4x onboard M.2 SSD expansion slots, PCIe 4.0 or faster. (Not those weird proprietary kinds!)
• Maybe some use of those ML cores to create better "AI session players" or even a plugin that learns your playing style and replicates it? Will there be celebrity AI emulations?
• Something that can run *fanless and silent* for taking into the booth or use in a home studio where you don't have the luxury of a separate machine room

So what we're seeing here is the opportunity to get some incredible jumps in audio power, and enabling new kinds of features that give individual musicians much more capability and flexibility - and in theory in something the size of a MacBook Pro or iMac.

Traditionally, ARM-based APUs do not have multi-threading...

I could really see Apple shaking things up with integrated A/V DSPs & I/O (for the Mac Pro line-up; MacBook Pro & Mac Pro Cube), which will piss off the third-party folks because all their low-to-mid-end gear is now defunct. I suppose there will still be room for PCIe expansion chassis (multiple TB4 connections?) for Pro Tools HDX cards 7 the such...

RE: "4x onboard M.2 SSD expansion slots", that would be an external USB4 (TB3) / TB4 box, or a PCIe RAID card in aforementioned PCIe expansion chassis...?

RE: "celebrity AI emulations", that could be neat; it could also be the new auto-tune...? ;^p

Yeah, my Mac Pro Cube would have two fans; the thick ones fro the current Mac Pro, one intaking fro below, one exhausting out the top...

 

[UBS28]

Good god. People are still complaining about dropping 32-bit support? Geez. Move on with the times and stop using ancient and abandoned software.

The access virus ti is still one of the best synthesizers in the world and is used in countless of commercial recordings.

The fact that Apple does not want to support professional grade equipment says enough how bad Mac OS is.

 

[AlphaCentauri]

The access virus ti is still one of the best synthesizers in the world and is used in countless of commercial recordings.

The fact that Apple does not want to support professional grade equipment says enough how bad Mac OS is.

No one is disputing that Access Virus is an amazing synth. We are just trying to point out that you are directing your disappointment at the wrong company. It is not Apple’s task to update the driver, it is Access job to do so.

So Access is not willing to support their own professional equipment cause they’ve got their money from you already and you blame Apple, hmm...

 

[UBS28]

No one is disputing that Access Virus is an amazing synth. We are just trying to point out that you are directing your disappointment at the wrong company. It is not Apple’s task to update the driver, it is Access job to do so.

So Access is not willing to support their own professional equipment cause they’ve got their money from you already and you blame Apple, hmm...

The access virus Ti relies on 3rd party drivers from what I heard so it is not easy for them just to recompile it to 64-bit as they have external dependencies.

When even free OS like Linux supports 32-bit, 64-bit (and they supported ARM too already), Mac OS is really a joke.

 

[AlphaCentauri]

The access virus Ti relies on 3rd party drivers from what I heard so it is not easy for them just to recompile it to 64-bit as they have external dependencies.

When even free OS like Linux supports 32-bit, 64-bit (and they supported ARM too already), Mac OS is really a joke.

I guess, it’s Windows for you then, good luck ?

 

[UBS28]

I guess, it’s Windows for you then, good luck ?

Yes, indeed. I am not dropping the Access Virus TI because Apple won’t support 32-bit.

So back to Windows it is then as my main music production computer.

 

[JMacHack]

When even free OS like Linux supports 32-bit, 64-bit (and they supported ARM too already), Mac OS is really a joke.

Homepage | The Virus TI - Totally Integrated Synthesizers

At Access Music we produce high quality musical instruments. The Virus series of synthesizers is the de-facto standard in the Virtual Analog synthesis world.

www.virus.info

Let me know when you get your synth working on Linux.

So back to Windows it is then as my main music production computer.

Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

However, one synth program not being supported in MacOS doesn't make it a joke.

 

[jerryk]

Yes, indeed. I am not dropping the Access Virus TI because Apple won’t support 32-bit.

So back to Windows it is then as my main music production computer.

Does the Access Virus TI work on IOS/iPadOS? I see apps in the app store, but don't know enough to determine if these meet your needs. If so, it may very well work on a Mac-AppleSilicon-OS.

 

[leftyMac]

The only issue I can think of is plugin incompatibility, but the built-in tools in Logic Pro X have improved so much that I don’t think I would mind not using third party plugins.

I’m pretty sure big players like iZotope and Waves will release ARM compatible plugins in no time.

 

[vigilant]

The only issue I can think of is plugin incompatibility, but the built-in tools in Logic Pro X have improved so much that I don’t think I would mind not using third party plugins.

I’m pretty sure big players like iZotope and Waves will release ARM compatible plugins in no time.

I think plugins will have temporary inconveniences in the form of recompiling changed code to be ARM at either installation time or first run.

The recompiled code stays on device in a cache, and the only time it needs to recompile again is after first start.

It’s hard to say how burdensome is day to day, but I don’t expect it to be that burdensome considering that it only needs to recompile any given app one time per software update.

The disadvantage does seem to be that applications running like this can’t use the low performances cores to maximize utilization.

 

[Hessel89]

I produce. I can tell you my most used piece of hardware (the Virus TI) definitely won't work anymore. It surely isn't the only external synth that's not supported due to the sandboxification of kext files. For me external synths are essential so this will be the final straw that pushes me to Windows 10. (at least for music production)

 

[daniellecouilliard]

Not knowing very much about what goes on inside computers outside of knowing what I need for my specific needs, the switch to ARM has thrown me off a bit as I don't know enough about processors to make an informed decision.

I'll be using FL Studio and numerous VST plugins. My choice is either get the next Intel iMac when (if) it comes out and hope it will last for 5 to 7 years or get an ARM iMac but would that potentially mean current third party software might not work properly for an unknown amount of time?

I can confirm that FLStudio does not work on Apple Silicon. I have the Dev transition kit. FLStudio is built using delphi. Delphi (embarcadero) has support for Arm processors for mobile devices but has not mentioned when it will support Apple Silicon. My guess is that ImageLine has to wait for embarcadero to update the compiler before FLStudio can be compiled into a Universal Binary. Happy to test it out for you as updates become available. I am holding fire on buying a new Macbook until everything works. Apple only started accepting Universal Apps on the 10th Nov 2020.

 

[boss.king]

I don't imagine it'll have much of an impact. As long as your software runs, it shouldn't really matter what's in your computer - the only caveat there is that some software might take a while to get properly compatible. Apple already dropped 32 bit support, which messed up some more niche software, so I'd expect Big Sur and AS Macs to basically work as well as Intel Mac's on Catalina.

 

[guzhogi]

I kinda wonder about drivers. I have a few midi keyboards at work, and some need drivers.

 

[guzhogi]

Lots of PCIe lanes (128-256) for internal expansion and external devices. Chaining lots of TB / USB-C interfaces, external processors, and at least 4x onboard M.2 SSD expansion slots, PCIe 4.0 or faster. (Not those weird proprietary kinds!)

Honest question: why do you need so many PCI lanes? I don't use anything too powerful, so I honestly don't know.

 

[grrrz]

definitely don't buy an apple silicon mac for music production. As flawlessly as people seem to imply this switch is gonna be; I was there for the first switch from powerpc; and then the 32 to 64 bits switch; and each time it was a nightmare to get everything working together flawlessly; the plugins and all; and it sometimes a year or more to get a working native version (in the case of the powerpc switch).
buy an intel mac.
(starting to sound like a broken record I know)

 

[HoosierInFL]

I use GarageBand with a few plugins. I know GarageBand will work with the M1, but what about the the plugins I have installed?