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I have to reluctantly conclude: macOS Monterey is a horrible product, quality-wise
- Thread starter gctwnl
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Elsewhere there are forums and more about issues related to both M chip computers and this MacOS. Nothing disingenuous about that. It is reasonable to question Apple's direction when enough customers mention the same issue. Again M chip-related x OS combination has led to a bevy of issues. Blair, I think it is a bit off-putting when people are being told to pretty much shut up given you don't have the issues.
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Just to save you guys time, the situation won't likely change with macOS being buggy. It has become one of those things that Apple has to keep around but isn't profitable enough anymore to justify too much refinement before the next iteration comes out.
macOS is way more complex than iOS but Macs generate way less revenue than iPhones. You have to be blind to not see that macOS isn't a priority for Apple compared to iOS, iPadOS, or even watchOS. Features on macOS now often get delayed till after launch.
macOS only has to be good enough for the average user. I upgraded when it first came out and immediately regretted it after Time Machine no long ran well on a dedicated HDD. I had to get an SSD just so things would get back to normal. Then my Bootcamp drive disappeared. Then my original MX Master started experiencing cursor lags. I downgraded to Big Sur and was at peace again.
It's pretty crazy that even with my simple setup, an operating system would be what's preventing me from doing actual work. I would stay with Big Sur for as long as I can. Life is too short to go through this Sisyphean ordeal every year.
macOS is way more complex than iOS but Macs generate way less revenue than iPhones. You have to be blind to not see that macOS isn't a priority for Apple compared to iOS, iPadOS, or even watchOS. Features on macOS now often get delayed till after launch.
macOS only has to be good enough for the average user. I upgraded when it first came out and immediately regretted it after Time Machine no long ran well on a dedicated HDD. I had to get an SSD just so things would get back to normal. Then my Bootcamp drive disappeared. Then my original MX Master started experiencing cursor lags. I downgraded to Big Sur and was at peace again.
It's pretty crazy that even with my simple setup, an operating system would be what's preventing me from doing actual work. I would stay with Big Sur for as long as I can. Life is too short to go through this Sisyphean ordeal every year.
I just checked this, and for me, it doesn't seem to be related to the messages app. To reproduce, I just opened the Maps app, closed the window without closing the app, switched to any other app and then back to Maps, et voilà, the window was back again
However, I absolutely believe this is intentional to avoid users getting confused when there's no map in Maps. Of course, its a different behavior than 99% of all other apps show, but the behavior isn't consistent anyway: Some apps are closed completely when you close the last window (e.g. Settings, App Store), others stay open without a window.
EDIT: On my system, Safari shows exactly the same behavior and opens a new window when there is none when switching back to it.
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Please re-read my bug report. The issue I was reporting is when the system switches you back to Maps (when you quit the app 'above' it). Switching to it yourself should indeed make it open a new window.
Oh good grief, even the feedback form doesn't work. I wrote up a thing about how the quality has plummeted and that Apple should review the bug reports etc. I went to submit it and got a message that feedback must be less than 800 characters (which is far too low, but that's beside the point). I managed to trim it down to 791, tried to submit again, "must be less than 800 characters".
Thanks for trying. It's hard to wrap my head around just how untested their software is.
Sorry, my bad, didn't read it carefully enough. Now I could reproduce your issue.
It's odd that it only happens with "Messages". For all other apps I tested, the system switches back to "Finder" after closing them.
EDIT: Okay, I was clearly wrong with the last statement, it is well possible to switch back to another app instead of Finder. I probably didn't click the windows in the correct order (which is a bit embarrassing).
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I ended up putting the feedback on my web server and provided a link to it, but who knows whether they'll actually read it or just use "it might be a virus" or similar as an excuse...
The Asus Zenbook 14.
It’s not as powerful as what I would have wanted (and that soldered 8GB of RAM is going to bite me in the butt), but I needed a new machine and considering the price, I am absolutely thrilled. I upgraded the SSD to 1TB with a drive I bought off of Amazon for like ~$105. Would you like for me to link that for you?
Only qualm with the machine is the battery life. Not very good. Probably 5-6 hours of office work. But, again, considering the price I’m willing to forgive it.
The 90Hz OLED screen is just killer.
Coincidentally, it’s on sale right now at Best Buy:
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My MacBook M1 is probably the worst computer I've ever owned. The only one that might compare is my cheap Dell I bought like 20+ years ago and ran Windows ME. Honestly, MacOS Big Sur, Ventura, Monterey are generally on par with Windows ME in terms of quality. Sure Windows ME did blue screen fairly often. But, it worked when it ran. When the system was not overloaded, it was highly responsive. I paid $1800 for this piece of aluminum garbage, and the mouse lags so bad. Also, the mouse misses clicks regularly. So, I sort of just kind of have to click away and hope one of them registers. I feel so utterly ripped off. I remember how much I wanted an apple computer when I was younger and poorer. Now, I am never buying another apple computer.
Well, I do hope that Apple understands that those of use who are not "the average user" are the people are friends and family look to for advice on computers. We are influences in that sense. If Apple wants to put out garbage, I am of course going to recommend that my family buy something else. I don't think any one is so invested in the Apple ecosystem that they couldn't just switch to windows next time. I cannot in good conscience ever recommend a Mac computer, likely ever again. I would need to see proof that the serious issues are fixed and, after 3 releases on these crappy new Macs, that would have to be some significant proof to the point it's implausible it would ever be given.
Take a look at the typical Apple teamster and wonder no-more.
I don't care who owns Twitter now. I deeply appreciate how much EM has exposed how these tech giants operate and confirm what I've been saying on this forum for years. Working in such companies is an adult daycare. If you haven't seen it yourself, you cannot fathom.
To give you an idea: where I once worked, we had trouble with internet for the greater half of a year. We relied on internet to download and share files with clients. It didn't make work impossible but changed how we structured our (well my) workflow. When I would ask for an update on a project from one of the employees under me, they would shrug and say "ooooh, yeah I tried to like download the files but like" *clicks around her desktop quickly* "Oh yeah, look at that. It's working now. I'll get to it once it's downloaded." I'd come back around the time she claimed it would be complete and she'd still be there on her phone practically lounging. I'd ask if the download completed. "Oh, it looks like something happened. What the heck? I don't know what's going on here, hah. I mean I can try again."
The day we stopped bringing wine to stock the fridge the same employee immediately drove to the nearest hipster-feed store, stocked the fridge with not the cheapest or equivalent wine as we were providing before, brought snacks and confections, made a big deal about how generous and selfless she was and turned in the receipt for comp'ing.
Quite the change in attitude and urgency so suddenly and for only so long as was needed.
Deadlines? Delivery dates? OH, I thought that was the day I was supposed to START on the project. Yeah, employees would be absent or roaming the building chatting it up all day every day until I would put the pressure on to deliver what they said they would. They would show up the day of or day before delivery, dramatically gesticulate at their computer to appear hard at work, disappear, and when I called and asked what the hell was going on they would groan and say "aaaaw man, yeah it turns out the audio they sent is like a really low sample rate so I text to see if they could send a better one and they haven't replied yet." "Did you call them?" "Uuuuh nah." It was warfare trying to get these kids to PICK UP A PHONE AND USE IT AS A PHONE because they lack even the most basic human communication aptitude or motivation.
Now imagine this is how your OS and video game is developed.
The day we blocked streaming services on the LAN practically lead to an insurrection. There's another story involving the constant company purchases of beanbag chairs/beds and the war over "food and beverage heating device hazards" that people either wouldn't believe or would deny as it reflects on them. That company didn't last long before being acquired, merged, and rebranded. The parallels are there but it's a long story.
The next time an Apple product feels like Fallout '76 just remember who's behind both products. (See pic).
You are obviously not compensating well enough to get quality people. That's your fault, or at least your company's.
Ah, the Commie cope. "If you want me to put the right sauce on your burger, I need you to pay for my mortgage, kids, car and Xbox Live with at least two-weeks of paid vacation and a boob-job".
These people were getting at or nearly six-figures to lounge and bitch. How much should it cost to find somebody who can pick up a phone and place a call? These people agreed to the scope of work for the price. We got quarterly bonuses, PTO out the ass, extravagant Christmas bonuses, and these people were disgusted that they might have to appear in the office to do work. This is years before muh virus so no point trying to argue that. They understood what was being required of them yet never lived up to their end of the deal and still demanded I approve time-off because grandma's dead again. Are you also going to defend the misappropriation of company property and assets? Should I have to pay somebody seven-figures to keep them from doing vanity projects in our Adobe suites on our top-end Macs on our electricity with our WiFi while they are still failing to deliver even one project on time?
I'm glad I'm where I am now and every time I see one of these bumming shirks here or in big-tech get laid off it only brings me satisfaction. When I first started here, there was a guy that was the... IDK because nobody really has job titles here since we just DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO PRODUCE. (Most of us would never say, "that's not my job." Instead the culture promotes in-person collaboration and saying, "I'll get with Bob since he's got a better handle on that work.") He was relied on for updating a sort of web-app library and implementing changes to a sort of parts and cost matrix. The first meeting I attended with him he was supposed to present to the management a plan for implementing a new web-app that was being tailor-made for our company. We had no fewer than three weeks to prepare for this meeting. Instead of giving any presentation, he took the time to eloquently toss word-salads to convince the managers that we should keep the old app and that the new one just wouldn't do what we want it to do.
After the meeting, I personally met with the president to see if I could at least look at what the new company was developing. The president said "do whatever you want, there's no harm in finding out one way or the other." I consulted with the dev team and convinced my manager to convince the president to allow me to work from home for a week so long as I had something to show at the end of it. When my manager had to see what I had put together, he arranged another meeting. My manager and I waited for the tool to go on running his mouth about what a bad idea it is to switch because the new app simply couldn't implement x, y, and z. He was very dismissive, pessimistic, pushy and dodgy. It was clear he had no intention of doing any work and wanted things to remain comfy for his self. That's when my manager prompted me to show off my work. Amazingly, the new web app did x, y, and z and did so better than the old app. The president asked how long it took to develop. I said "it took me two days to learn the language and two days to implement what you see". There was suddenly a lot of sweating, nervous shivering and nonsensical word salad from the bum.
Rather than assisting me as I was given the project, he chose to trip me with every step and go behind my back to bitch and complain that he knows better. He does not work here anymore and our app is working better than the dev team promised and is still improving.
My scope of work at this company is such that I've replaced the need for approximately three other staff. Now I already know the commies are thinking "Ooooh, doing four-times the work and not receiving four-times the pay? CAPITALIST GREED." but the reality is that none of these people had enough work to warrant full-time employment. I can accomplish all of this work in a day at a leisurely pace. It's amazing that simply applying my efforts for about the sum of 6-hours a day can produce better results than somebody that was collecting over-time and made it look as though their work was soooooo hard.
The guy made a living off of deflecting the managers' demands by confusing him with jargon. I now handle his job without stress and without having fits in meetings to make it appear that the work was so monumental. I never got the degrees that he boasts about. I reached and exceeded the required coding abilities for his job in a matter of weeks not with months of school and earning flashy certs to insert into my email signature.
I'm well-compensated, respected within my team, and never feel the slightest guilt when I decide that certain work is better performed at home or when I request two-weeks paid time-off for Christmas.
I wouldn't fit in at a place like Apple. I don't drink or require a "gaming lounge" because "doing work is just so darn hard and stressful." I wouldn't dream of asking for a day off after not liking the outcome of an election. I wouldn't be threatening to quit for simply being asked to (hope I don't get banned for this one) come to the office. These infants, in their own words, "literally can't even".
You're judging people based on how they look. You might have good points but that opening remark destroys your credibility.
Ha ha. Point taken.
But honestly, I kind of look like the people in the picture from Apple, so you're basically directly insulting me. Your post made some excellent points; your fashion critique detracts from it.
Kind of your call whether you're actually trying to convince people (including the millions who look like people in that picture) or just trying to get a reaction.
Assuming yours isn't a troll post, I'll bite. You must realise that if things were anywhere near as bad for everyone as they apparently are for you, Apple would have gone down the pan by now. There are enough Apple haters out there eager to jump on any bad Apple news.
I am sure you have considered the possibility that you have a faulty machine. Either that or (which will probably annoy you), you are trying to do things as if it was a Windows machine, which i have seen in other threads.
Yeah, I am coming to that conclusion, too. Upgrades have just become problematic. Not enough improvements to justify the hassle, and then things break, too. Not just with MacOS, but other upgrades, iOS, iPadOS, some third-party software. Then, there are the interface changes. Frankly, I found the previoous Settings app much more useable than the new one. I will get used to it, of course, but we work in a high-pressure production environment and these kinds of changes really impact productivity. Would it have hurt to leave it as it was instead of trying to mimic iOS? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
My guess is that you're an INTJ. You despise people who you perceive as incompetent and at the same time, you aren't empathetic enough to be able to overcome your loathing to want to communicate with them about where they can improve. You have probably made many enemies this way.
You'll encounter this type of people in any large organization where responsibility has become very diffused. This is really nothing new. Most people go to work to get paid. They'll try every trick in the book to avoid having to do more than necessary to get paid. The only way to avoid this is to join a smaller organization where there is a sense of urgency and people can't hide behind bureaucracy to avoid responsibility. Or be your own boss and hire the kinds of people that meet your standard.
Harking back to the subject matter of this thread, it's evident with iOS that Apple can still make good software if they dedicate enough resources. The problem is really not with their people but with the management's resolve. Judging by Apple's kowtowing to the CCP, Cook is unlikely to do anything that will make Apple's shareholders unhappy. This includes assigning enough engineers to the macOS team (to the detriment of iOS and iPadOS) or lengthening the release cycle of macOS to two years. Longer release invariably means fewer Mac sales mid-cycle and Cook just can't have it.
Impressive stuff.
Dedicate as many resources as you'd like. It does not change the work ethic of the dole dippers. Steve was a person that just wanted what he wanted. You either gave him that or your resignation. Funny how this attitude is so attacked today because *the current thing* but when SJ did it it was genius.
ENTJ. I have helped anybody here that appears to have any actual ambition. We don't expect everybody to be the best and most driven at what they do but if they're honest and perform purposefully then we find a place for them. Many that are gone and some that are still here have checked-out and I do what I can to facilitate them when needed but generally divert my team around them. I do honestly try but some just want DA MUNNEE and the cumfy dereliction of responsibility. The last company was nothing but the latter. Big Tech = Daycares.
Dedicate as many resources as you'd like. It does not change the work ethic of the dole dippers. Steve was a person that just wanted what he wanted. You either gave him that or your resignation. Funny how this attitude is so attacked today because *the current thing* but when SJ did it it was genius.
ENTJ. I have helped anybody here that appears to have any actual ambition. We don't expect everybody to be the best and most driven at what they do but if they're honest and perform purposefully then we find a place for them. Many that are gone and some that are still here have checked-out and I do what I can to facilitate them when needed but generally divert my team around them. I do honestly try but some just want DA MUNNEE and the cumfy dereliction of responsibility. The last company was nothing but the latter. Big Tech = Daycares.
The reason is quite easy to see if you run a few commands in Terminal.
OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion had a bit over 250 000 files in the default installation, including all apps, drivers, etc...
macOS 12.6.1 Monterey has over 2 000 000 files just in the SYSTEM folder.
Both running on my 2019 MacBook Pro 15 (using vmware fusion for Mountain Lion).
So it's safe to say the under-the-hood complexity has grown 10x, at least!
It also means that likely no one at Apple fully understands the system anymore.
OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion had a bit over 250 000 files in the default installation, including all apps, drivers, etc...
macOS 12.6.1 Monterey has over 2 000 000 files just in the SYSTEM folder.
Both running on my 2019 MacBook Pro 15 (using vmware fusion for Mountain Lion).
So it's safe to say the under-the-hood complexity has grown 10x, at least!
It also means that likely no one at Apple fully understands the system anymore.