I have to reluctantly conclude: macOS Monterey is a horrible product, quality-wise

[Ashbash75]

5 years and 3 macs later. I've come to the conclusion, I'm not a mac person

 

[TightLines]

I used to upgrade when the newest version came out, but over the last several, I've upgraded one release behind the current one to give Apple a year to iron out the bugs. That doesn't even seem to be a safe bet anymore. I'm planning to upgrade to Monterey when Ventura releases, but with fingers crossed.

Crossing fingers? Is the current version that bad?

I am about to buy a new MBP and it will likely come with current version with no going back, or the one just about to be released… Do they even load the new BTO’s with a (final/golden version) before public release MacOS is officially out? Which is a worse position to be in?

 

[krell100]

At this point I'd advise anyone who can to stay away from Monterey. It's just not a stable OS.

 

[Wokis]

The issues I've had with MacOS during these later years have always been resolved. But admittedly slower than I'd hoped.

The "2019 16" MBP is hot and noisy when connected to an external monitor" - fixed, albeit not in a timely manner.
Cheap USB-C hubs randomly dropping off and giving problems - fixed, took over 6 months though (2019-2020 era)

A lot of issues I read here I can't say that I've seen myself though. Bluetooth, thunderbolt devices and USB connections are practically rock solid (today) to me.

 

[qcmacmini]

For me Monterey was fine until the recent 12.5.1 update. My external Thunderbolt SSD is being accessed non stop throughout sleep, this didn't happen before. I can only imagine MacOS is indexing files?

My computer keeps beachballing and locking up, to the point where I can't even open Safari or the Calendar app. It suddenly becomes snappy again and the lag comes back another day.

Surely this isn't normal?

I have a 2019 5K iMac 27" 3.7GHz with 512GB SSD.

 

[Wizec]

B

5 years and 3 macs later. I've come to the conclusion, I'm not a mac person

Same here. And there are the same type of quality issues with SwiftUI that have been discussed in this thread with macOS.

I’ve lost count now as I’m developing an iOS app of the number of broken SwiftUI features which I see on apple developer forums with 2 or 3 yr long threads with developers posting “still broken in iOS 13, 14, 15…”

 

[TechRunner]

Crossing fingers? Is the current version that bad?

I am about to buy a new MBP and it will likely come with current version with no going back, or the one just about to be released… Do they even load the new BTO’s with a (final/golden version) before public release MacOS is officially out? Which is a worse position to be in?

"Bad" is subjective to the user and their workflows/needs, honestly. From what I've read, it's more a roll of the dice than past versions, but many have used it without problems. I could be one of those, too. And so could you. I certainly wouldn't let it keep me from grabbing that new MBP!

 

[TechZeke]

Apple probably focuses on the average user experience.

Most folks just turn their Mac on, browse the internet, maybe open an app or two for homework, Calendar, or spreadsheet. Occasionally plug in a thumb drive. Rinse and repeat.

Not trying to excuse Apple here, but I can easily imagine that a lot of bugs probably aren’t even noticed or cared about by most of the Mac user population.

 

[MajorFubar]

Apple probably focuses on the average user experience.

Most folks just turn their Mac on, browse the internet, maybe open an app or two for homework, Calendar, or spreadsheet. Occasionally plug in a thumb drive. Rinse and repeat.

Not trying to excuse Apple here, but I can easily imagine that a lot of bugs probably aren’t even noticed or cared about by most of the Mac user population.

Many people say this. It's like M2 'SSD gate', where it's been argued barely anyone will notice because who on earth buys an MBA for serious work. And while there is room for this point of view, it kind of implies your average buyer is someone spending £1249 upwards on a computer for banal content consumption and incredibly light tasks. Zero evidence on my part, but I really can't believe that's true. That's what £300 Lenovos are for. People expect computers costing a grand or more to be capable of some pretty serious heavy lifting, and expect them to come with a solid OS which doesn't trip over itself.

It's all about the 'premium price, premium product' image which Apple once prided itself on.
Now they're more interested in pairing-up with Kardashians to sell skin-coloured earphones, and we wonder why MacOS is going to hell on a handcart.

EDIT: I miss Snow Leopard

 

[Slartibart]

B

Same here. And there are the same type of quality issues with SwiftUI that have been discussed in this thread with macOS.

I’ve lost count now as I’m developing an iOS app of the number of broken SwiftUI features which I see on apple developer forums with 2 or 3 yr long threads with developers posting “still broken in iOS 13, 14, 15…”

SwiftUI is a different can of worms 🤪… If it is true that the new Ventura System Preferences Settings are indeed SwiftUI based - while it does not really matter - Apple themselves seems unable to make professional-looking settings panels now.

 

[neuropsychguy]

I’ve had zero bugs that I’ve noticed. Restarting with an external SSD plugged in causes no issues. Granted, I have a 14” MacBook Pro, so that might be why everything works as expected but in using Macs over the past 40 years (and Windows computers for more than 20 years), while I have some issues with Macs and macOS, it’s been nothing like Windows issues. I like Windows (including 11) and use it as much as or more than macOS but I’m just not seeing as many bugs in macOS as in Windows. This has been true for decades. Again, just my experience.

Where I see the most bugs is in iOS, so I’m not giving Apple a pass.

 

[R!TTER]

Funny you should say that. I have to use Windows at work and I frequently mutter "when is Windows going to figure out how to deal with windows?" under my breath. I guess it all depends on what you're used to.

Well it helps that Windows has a ton of apps that can do Window management at latest on par or better than Windows/Mac OS' natively. Though admittedly I've moved away from a lot of them. Stardock for instance comes to mind straight away. In terms of various options available through third party applications there's Windows & then there's the rest, no one comes anywhere close to it.

 

[MacBird]

I've said this before, but the thing that really frustrates me is not that the bugs exist, but that they're not getting fixed. I've reported dozens over the past two years and Apple has only responded to two of them: One of those responses was to say that the bug had been fixed (it hadn't), and one to say that it's by design (it shouldn't be*). The rest of the bug reports have apparently been completely ignored.

*I figured out a sequence of steps that makes the Maps app pop up unexpectedly. I would never expect an app to open a new window of its own accord, whether by design or not.

The timeframe coincides with WFH, I'm wondering if that is coincidence or a side effect.

 

[exoticSpice]

Funnily enough I use Windows 10 instead of Monterey on my Intel 16" MBP and it's smoother, stable and faster than macOS 12.5

Windows 10 does not suddenly disconnect monitors or USB drives. It's stable and there's no memory leaks too.

I have the option of using Windows on my Intel Mac but for those with M1 chip and later. You can only use macOS as Bootcamp is non-existent and Linux support is horrible.

Apple desperately needs to pick up software slack otherwise the bugs and issues will pile up.

 

[Clickr O'Buttons]

Hmm. There are a few apps that have that behaviour. Finder for one. It has to with the app/window model. In (original) Microsoft, the window is the app (you had at that time multi-subwidow horrors) and the menu is part of the window, but in macOS the app has windows (much better architecture) and a separate menu. The app is the menu. The problem is that people often act as if 'the window is the app" and they do not close the app when they want, they close the window (especially users having come originally from Windows). Some apps also quit when you close the last/only window (e.g. System Preferences.

Some apps like Finder make sure that when they are activated, a window appears so the nontechnical users (especially the users coming from Windows) get confused "I started Finder but there is no window" (there is only a menu but they don't see it). Hence, for some apps, such as Finder (which really is essential), you can close the last window, but when you activate the app again via the dock, it will create a new window. Maps behaviour is likewise: when it gets activated without a window, it creates one. Maps does it, Finder does it, Messages itself does it. Photos does it. Probably all Apple's own apps do this (haven't tested all of them).

It is illogical, but it is a feature making macOS much more simple to use for newcomers, most of whom will have experienced Windows before macOS. It also has the effect that if a user closes the last window thinking they close the app, the app stays still running and when they click to 'launch' it again, it launches lightning fast (because the app itself doesn't need to startup). The app itself can go into 'sleep' mode not drawing energy or using CPU) when the last window closes, so there is no real drawback.

Their communication to you about it is as dumb as hell, though. Rather not people-friendly. Why not have a we page somewhere that explains this?

This seems to be a problem/feature with interaction with Catalyst apps. You can get similar behavior between, for example, News and Stocks on Monterey.

My guess for the behavior is that they wanted to minimize code differences among the platforms. On iOS you can't have an active application without a window, (AFAIK) so rather than add lots of special code to handle bringing an app forward without an active window, they just create one automatically.

The other alternative to adding lots of macOS specific code would have been to just have the apps quit on last window open, which is probably the preferred way, especially since Catalyst apps aren't generally document based. That might have generated a different set of gripes, but I think is more justifiable for macOS behavior.

 

[TechZeke]

Many people say this. It's like M2 'SSD gate', where it's been argued barely anyone will notice because who on earth buys an MBA for serious work. And while there is room for this point of view, it kind of implies your average buyer is someone spending £1249 upwards on a computer for banal content consumption and incredibly light tasks. Zero evidence on my part, but I really can't believe that's true. That's what £300 Lenovos are for. People expect computers costing a grand or more to be capable of some pretty serious heavy lifting, and expect them to come with a solid OS which doesn't trip over itself.

It's all about the 'premium price, premium product' image which Apple once prided itself on.
Now they're more interested in pairing-up with Kardashians to sell skin-coloured earphones, and we wonder why MacOS is going to hell on a handcart.

EDIT: I miss Snow Leopard

I know it's anecdotal on my part, but I know a lot of friends and family with $1000+ Macs and basic stuff is seriously what most people do with their computers, Mac or PC. The experience of a $300 Lenovo sucks no matter what you're doing. Most people I know just want a well built fast laptop that will last them a long time. Those who need extra performance for work typically have a work provided computer. Youtube and enthusiast forums make it seem like everyone is running Premiere, Final Cut, or Photoshop at the local Starbucks and hooking it up to multiple 4k Displays when they get home. I have yet to actually see anyone do this in-person on a personal laptop.

I'm a Civil Engineer and have a work provided laptop. I also have a $2500 16" MacBook Pro that I use as a glorified Safaribook. Heck, I know a family friend who lives 10 minutes from me who runs a restaurant and a small trucking business. She has a $2400 15" tb MBP just because she wanted a well built computer with a large screen. She loves it, but the most powerful thing she uses it for is Microsoft Office. She drives around in a $60,000 Genesis G80 but drives the speed limit. Again, most people just want something nice.

 

[moons_mooniverse]

Good old 10.2 🫠

 

[Timpetus]

I'm still running Catalina on my 2016 15" MBP and even that might have been a major version or two higher than I wanted. Still considering downgrading back to High Sierra, the best version since Snow Leopard. Nothing flashy, Apple just spent those revisions making everything rock solid reliable. I only upgraded to Catalina because I wanted a new feature in some software I use to work, but the inability to run 32 bit apps is wearing on me...

 

[FNH15]

I know it's anecdotal on my part, but I know a lot of friends and family with $1000+ Macs and basic stuff is seriously what most people do with their computers, Mac or PC. The experience of a $300 Lenovo sucks no matter what you're doing. Most people I know just want a well built fast laptop that will last them a long time. Those who need extra performance for work typically have a work provided computer. Youtube and enthusiast forums make it seem like everyone is running Premiere, Final Cut, or Photoshop at the local Starbucks and hooking it up to multiple 4k Displays when they get home. I have yet to actually see anyone do this in-person on a personal laptop.

I'm a Civil Engineer and have a work provided laptop. I also have a $2500 16" MacBook Pro that I use as a glorified Safaribook. Heck, I know a family friend who lives 10 minutes from me who runs a restaurant and a small trucking business. She has a $2400 15" tb MBP just because she wanted a well built computer with a large screen. She loves it, but the most powerful thing she uses it for is Microsoft Office. She drives around in a $60,000 Genesis G80 but drives the speed limit. Again, most people just want something nice.

At a family practice I consult for, the MDs use 15” MacBook Pros to access Epic (Citrix based).
Main selling point there was the reliability of macOS (no more needing to wait for Windows to “prepare to update”), and the quality of the hardware itself. Overkill, maybe, but when you spend 10 hrs a day in front of your machine, the Retina display + long battery life make a huge difference.

That particular office still has 2013 13” MacBook Pros being used by the nursing staff on a regular basis. All of the Macs have well outlasted the Windows-based Dell crap (which was just as expensive as the Macs, mind you) which is still used in parts of the office.

Looking at replacing the x-ray terminals later this year, the 24” iMac is the logical choice.

MacOS is neither less or more buggy than in years past. Been using it since 10.4, there were bugs in Leopard, Snow Leopard (Preview especially), Lion, Mountain Lion, etc.

Tiger was pretty stable but it had a whole year extra to gestate...

Given history, whatever release drops x86 will be significantly more stable than the previous OS. Writing is on the wall, it’s time to sell your Intel Macs soon if you can! I was around for the last migration (PowerPC -> Intel), values will drop off quite rapidly in the next few years.

 

[Ashbash75]

I know it's anecdotal on my part, but I know a lot of friends and family with $1000+ Macs and basic stuff is seriously what most people do with their computers, Mac or PC. The experience of a $300 Lenovo sucks no matter what you're doing. Most people I know just want a well built fast laptop that will last them a long time. Those who need extra performance for work typically have a work provided computer. Youtube and enthusiast forums make it seem like everyone is running Premiere, Final Cut, or Photoshop at the local Starbucks and hooking it up to multiple 4k Displays when they get home. I have yet to actually see anyone do this in-person on a personal laptop.

I'm a Civil Engineer and have a work provided laptop. I also have a $2500 16" MacBook Pro that I use as a glorified Safaribook. Heck, I know a family friend who lives 10 minutes from me who runs a restaurant and a small trucking business. She has a $2400 15" tb MBP just because she wanted a well built computer with a large screen. She loves it, but the most powerful thing she uses it for is Microsoft Office. She drives around in a $60,000 Genesis G80 but drives the speed limit. Again, most people just want something nice.

You lost me at 300usd laptop 😂

 

[Mr. Dee]

I’m still on Big Sur on my M1 MBP and Catalina on Early 2015, Broadwell. I’m seriously thinking about just keeping them at Big Sur until I’m forced to.

 

[lanzbulldog]

Since i updated yesterday to 12.5.1 i have big troubles with my multi touch trackpad, one touch click doesn't work anymore. Read a lot on the internet to repair it but can't find the fix!? Someone had the same experience?its probably an older bug when you do an upgrade.
If someone could help me out, i would appreciate it very much. Thanks in advance (MacBook Pro 14 inch M1)

 

[Sammy in SoCal]

I’m on 12.5.1 with my M1 MBP 13. Everything is fine. You people are crazy.

 

[DHagan4755]

I’m still on Big Sur on my M1 MBP and Catalina on Early 2015, Broadwell. I’m seriously thinking about just keeping them at Big Sur until I’m forced to.

If it ain't broke why fix it?! The only downside will be when important security updates are no longer supported for that OS.

 

[hoo-man-b-ing]

Just to point out how silly this is, here's my verbatim bug report:


And Apple's response:


Beggars belief...

Having worked in the industry for a while and at sizable companies, my guess is that they looked at the severity of this, customer experience/impact, cost of fixing, and likelihood that folks would run into this and selected the best dropdown option in Jira (or whatever tool they're using) that effectively translates to "Out of all the issues we have on our plate, this is so low priority we'll never fix it. We're basically okay with this bug living forever so we're labeling it as 'by design.'"

While that may be a subpar experience, from a business perspective, it might be a reasonable call, especially since you've only reproduced it with Maps and Messages and the impact would very likely be rated "low." I thought that was an interesting connection, though, (it's not like someone would write an "if" statement to introduce that behavior just for Messages), so I did a little testing. I would bet a cup of coffee that it's related to location sharing since I discovered the bug also repros with the Find My app and Maps, so it's possible that there's some non-obvious dependency at play. You can also watch the thread count bounce around for locationd while reproducing the scenario. If so, that potentially just raised the complexity of the fix, which would make the ROI even worse.

As for "demanding" higher quality, I recommend you keep filing bug reports and vote with your money. It doesn't mean that they'll fix every fit and finish bug like this, but it provides them with data to quantify opportunities for investment and the cost of deferring that investment. All of their decisions live within the iron triangle of Time, Scope and Resources so if folks keep buying their products and services despite these type of issues (which I suspect they will), Apple's approach is unlikely to change. However, if their KPIs begin trending negatively, they could adjust by, for example, delaying new features (Time), reducing functionality of upcoming features (Scope), and/or adding more people/further investing in automated tooling/etc (Resources)