i hope intel comes back to beat the m1

[crazy dave]

I didn't say anything about knowing a bunch about computers. Why are you even responding to me? Do you have anything to add or just blather? Maybe you two should get a room if that person means so much to you?

Copping an attitude while being ignorant of the subject at hand is a good way of getting nothing but blather directed at you. The reason I was so amused you tried to be snarky with @cmaier is because he designed AMD chips, including the original x86-64 ISA and processors. If you are actually interested in learning something, drop the infantile attitude.

That's fine. Can you show me the same data with AMD included? How does that look? I don't even care where the benchmarks come from as long as it shows the entire market. The one you included did not and is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People tend to only focus on the chips Apple has sold and not talked much about the entirety of the market.

This is a good place to get started in reading about the M1:

The 2020 Mac Mini Unleashed: Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

www.anandtech.com

It provides benchmark comparisons to both recent AMD and Intel chips, delves into the design of the M1 cores (more is known now as more of it has been reverse engineered since the article was written), and explains why people are so impressed.

 

[pasamio]

Well I'm sure you can overclock and still manage to keep your timers adjusted correctly. I don't really know because I'm not really into the whole overclocking PC thing but I assume that's how a few uploads seem to be valid at around 1950-2000 single core. I also found one or two Rocket Lake i9s that get in the 2000 range. But the Rocket Lake core i9s are consistently in the 1950-1980 range. It would be great if Geekbench could figure out how to validate macOS and and Linux tests. Right now many pages of their top results are suspect.

The original graph that @cmaier posted came from an article on Anand Tech that had their own controlled benchmarks. They've got a few other benchmarks that they ran with comparisons against a number of different CPUs showing the A14 to be pretty strong using a number of different metrics and we've found the M1 to be a level beyond that. The interesting thing will be what comes next from Apple and how that compares assuming Apple continue the trend they've set for the last decade.

 

[jdb8167]

...

This is a good place to get started in reading about the M1:

The 2020 Mac Mini Unleashed: Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

www.anandtech.com

It provides benchmark comparisons to both recent AMD and Intel chips, delves into the design of the M1 cores (more is known now as more of it has been reverse engineered since the article was written), and explains why people are so impressed.

The M1 is actually behind the recent Intel Rocket Lake and AMD Ryzen 9 CPUs now but I don't think it was at the time of that article. Computer technology moves along. Apple is likely to release a new SoC sometime in the next 6 months though whether it will have better single core performance from the M1 is up in the air still. But even though the M1 is no longer the fastest single core (it was never close to being the fastest multi-core) it is still plenty impressive given it does everything at about 5W peak core and 15-20W multi-core including the all core and GPU cores.

 

[crazy dave]

The M1 is actually behind the recent Intel Rocket Lake and AMD Ryzen 9 CPUs now but I don't think it was at the time of that article. Computer technology moves along. Apple is likely to release a new SoC sometime in the next 6 months though whether it will have better single core performance from the M1 is up in the air still. But even though the M1 is no longer the fastest single core (it was never close to being the fastest multi-core) it is still plenty impressive given it does everything at about 5W peak core and 15-20W multi-core including the all core and GPU cores.

Those are still the most recent Ryzen 9's and the scores should hold. However, different groups benchmark with different setups - like for instance RAM setups. So you can get different results from different groups even without the CPU itself being manually overclocked. The reason I mention manual overclocking is because with new turbo modes both Intel and AMD will automatically turbo higher as long as they can and the silicon supports it - it's almost like auto-overclocking if you get a good binned chip versus a poor one. Basically there are a lot of ways to get variations in performance scores without manually tuning.

Though Rocket Lake isn't included it in this article, it's pretty comparable to AMD's single threaded results - a little behind, a good deal more power. So no overall, the M1 can't quite claim to have the single thread crown (and why Apple qualifies it with *in low power silicon), but yes very impressive nonetheless. I think if you toss multicore *and GPU* you can get the M1 SOC up to around 30W, but indeed the CPU alone seems to max out around 20W for multicore where most workloads burn around 15W.

 

[Digital_Sousaphone]

Copping an attitude while being ignorant of the subject at hand is a good way of getting nothing but blather directed at you. The reason I was so amused you tried to be snarky with @cmaier is because he designed AMD chips, including the original x86-64 ISA and processors. If you are actually interested in learning something, drop the infantile attitude.



This is a good place to get started in reading about the M1:

The 2020 Mac Mini Unleashed: Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test

www.anandtech.com

It provides benchmark comparisons to both recent AMD and Intel chips, delves into the design of the M1 cores (more is known now as more of it has been reverse engineered since the article was written), and explains why people are so impressed.

The only attitude I coped was when mr. coolguy showed up with his graph expressing exactly what I was frustrated with. He didn't even bother to explain anything because he wanted to show how cool he was. Why bother posting around this place with guys like y'all? You get these guys throwing around their authority wang and it's hillarious. If you need to feel important, go plant a tree or something.

 

[cmaier]

The only attitude I coped was when mr. coolguy showed up with his graph expressing exactly what I was frustrated with. He didn't even bother to explain anything because he wanted to show how cool he was. Why bother posting around this place with guys like y'all? You get these guys throwing around their authority wang and it's hillarious. If you need to feel important, go plant a tree or something.

1) Name calling isn’t necessary
2) The graph is pretty self-explanatory.

 

[Digital_Sousaphone]

1) Name calling isn’t necessary
2) The graph is pretty self-explanatory.

The graph doesn't even address my issue. You would need to do some expository commentary to make it work.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

[BigPotatoLobbyist]

The athlon 64 blew away pentium. Pentium, at the time, didn’t even have a true 64-bit pipeline - it had to run instructions twice through 32-bit ALUs. Cray and other supercomputer vendors switched their designs to use opterons (which were the same design as athlon 64), and most of the world’s fastest supercomputers at the time used AMD CPUs.

And this guy isn’t going to do **** for Intel:

“VMware CEO Pat Gelsinger is the Chairman of the Board at a group called Transforming the Bay with Christ. This coalition of business leaders, venture capitalists, non-profit leaders and pastors aims to convert one million people over the next decade.”

You think the best engineers in Silicon Valley are going to put up with that garbage and stick around to be preached to?

Do you seriously believe Gelsinger is naive enough to bring this into the workplace and compromise his leadership? Empirically it seems the best engineers (Glenn Hinton, Sunil Shenoy) are if anything enthused enough to return. Intel may struggle to dominate as they did before in mass-market general chips, but to suggest they won't have particularly revitalized products (or services, with the fab strategy) on the horizon due to Gelsinger's religious affiliation strikes me as more of an argument borne of enmity than a cogent forecast.

 

[cmaier]

Do you seriously believe Gelsinger is naive enough to bring this into the workplace and compromise his leadership? Empirically it seems the best engineers (Glenn Hinton, Sunil Shenoy) are if anything enthused enough to return. Intel may struggle to dominate as they did before in mass-market general chips, but to suggest they won't have particularly revitalized products (or services, with the fab strategy) on the horizon due to Gelsinger's religious affiliation strikes me as more of an argument borne of enmity than a cogent forecast.

“Religious affiliation” is an interesting way of phrasing “disrespects the choices of others so much that he is plotting to convert them to his own personal make believe stories.”

 

[thedocbwarren]

The only attitude I coped was when mr. coolguy showed up with his graph expressing exactly what I was frustrated with. He didn't even bother to explain anything because he wanted to show how cool he was. Why bother posting around this place with guys like y'all? You get these guys throwing around their authority wang and it's hillarious. If you need to feel important, go plant a tree or something.

Think you are being ridiculous. Honestly we don't need that. We can present data, and it's easy to find the data to show where we are with Intel vs Apple. End of the day Intel CPUs have fallen behind. This isn't Apple's fault, it's Intel's.

The M1 is a fantastic SoC. The performance is noticeably better. I own a MBP 16 as well as some other PCs running Ubuntu. Nothing compares. These are first gen for this series. This is arguably a solid entrance and highly performance and competitive (and anyone honest would agree.)

 

[thedocbwarren]

The graph doesn't even address my issue. You would need to do some expository commentary to make it work.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

What issue? There are a lot of people here with solid experience in the tech space. @cmaier
being one. Any of us that have worked in this space can speak to their respected expertise.

 

[Digital_Sousaphone]

Think you are being ridiculous. Honestly we don't need that. We can present data, and it's easy to find the data to show where we are with Intel vs Apple. End of the day Intel CPUs have fallen behind. This isn't Apple's fault, it's Intel's.

The M1 is a fantastic SoC. The performance is noticeably better. I own a MBP 16 as well as some other PCs running Ubuntu. Nothing compares. These are first gen for this series. This is arguably a solid entrance and highly performance and competitive (and anyone honest would agree.)

Doesn't even address my initial point or even anything I brought up initially. Kinda just lost are ya??? Dog pile on me because? oKayy

 

[thedocbwarren]

Doesn't even address my initial point or even anything I brought up initially. Kinda just lost are ya??? Dog pile on me because? oKayy

I'm actually not dog-piling. Your initial point was the following:

"

What year did this thread start in? 2019? 2018? Why are people still talking about Intel when they have been number 2 for a while now? M1 chips are great if you don't know what else is available other than the laughable chips Apple has gone with for the last 10 years. Apple kept the core duo market alive with their garbage low end offerings. You can make some absolutely fantastic graphs showing increases in performance when you've only been offering the bare minimum in Intel chips...
"

That point makes little to no sense as it's not what 'has' or 'is' happening. Your are welcome to your opinion, it's fine, but the graphs don't show low-end bare minimal Intel chips to compare to. I benched and pushed my 9th gen i9 Apple MacBook Pro 16 next to my M1 MacBook Pro 13 M1. The M1 beats it solidly. I compiled, benchmarked, ran numerous VMs, docker, you name it. M1 beats it. I'm not comparing low end Intel chips.

I sense an agenda in your posts. It's ok, but I don't agree with it.

 

[crazy dave]

Doesn't even address my initial point or even anything I brought up initially. Kinda just lost are ya??? Dog pile on me because? oKayy

If it's AMD chips you want comparisons to, the link I provided gives them as well as detailed explanations for what chips, tests, and settings were chosen and why. Many other reviews online do this as well with both Zen 2 and Zen3 and Comet/Tiger Lake systems. You don't have to read the Anandtech review fo the M1, there are plenty of other such sites that covered it as well and compared to multiple AMD and Intel systems.

A more recent review from Anandtech on Zen 3 mobile (released after the M1 so was not included in the first article) is here:

AMD Ryzen 9 5980HS Cezanne Review: Ryzen 5000 Mobile Tested

www.anandtech.com

Unfortunately most of the benchmarks don't have the M1 for comparison, but a few do. As you can see, Zen 3 mobile, the closest AMD equivalent to the M1, does manage to match, even beat, the M1 in multicore (caveat: unsure about how much power it draws when doing so, but probably better than Zen 2 which required a large power increase to beat the M1), but not single threaded execution where the M1 CPU still maintains a nice lead. However, the M1 is manufactured on a better process node, so that's still a very impressive showing from Zen 3 regardless. AMD has an excellent x86 architecture. The M1 is an excellent ARM architecture. How each evolves should be very interesting. Next year Zen 4 and the M2 will both be manufactured on the exact same (or close enough) process node. Intel ... well ... we'll see what Alder Lake brings.

 

[crazy dave]

“Religious affiliation” is an interesting way of phrasing “disrespects the choices of others so much that he is plotting to convert them to his own personal make believe stories.”

Yeah I can't say that I'm a fan of that either, but apparently he has managed to hire some impressive people to Intel - not counting ones brought back out of retirement - e.g. Andre Seznec joined in January. What they'll all accomplish is of course a different story. My attitude: the future is what it'll be and I certainly don't have the industry or engineering experience to prognosticate with any clarity never mind certainty on that particular front.

 

[3rik]

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft with their rumoured SQ3 and higher chips being fully in-house would be M1's biggest competition.
Microsoft's laptops are also in many aspects the closest thing windows has to the macbook (OS and hardware from the same company, premium build quality, attention to detail etc)

 

[crazy dave]

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft with their rumoured SQ3 and higher chips being fully in-house would be M1's biggest competition.
Microsoft's laptops are also in many aspects the closest thing windows has to the macbook (OS and hardware from the same company, premium build quality, attention to detail etc)

SQ3 is Qualcomm and won’t really be competitive with the M1 in terms of raw performance (though should be a substantial upgrade to the SQ2). Microsoft’s in-house Arm designs are rumored to be server first (Azure) and will very likely be standard ARM cores (nothing wrong with that, those cores are just behind Apple’s in terms of performance for now). However, Qualcomm just bought Nuvia who was originally going to make server chips, but will now be making ARM laptop chips, presumably SQ4 late next year. Those will be custom cores and if Nuvia’s marketing is to be believed (nothing has been released), will be very competitive with Apple’s chips.

 

[crazy dave]

I can’t find specint2006 for AMD’s recent chips.

Btw here are some of the SpecInt2006 (and fp) for recent AMD and Intel chips:

 

[3rik]

SQ3 is Qualcomm and won’t really be competitive with the M1 in terms of raw performance (though should be a substantial upgrade to the SQ2). Microsoft’s in-house Arm designs are rumored to be server first (Azure) and will very likely be standard ARM cores (nothing wrong with that, those cores are just behind Apple’s in terms of performance for now). However, Qualcomm just bought Nuvia who was originally going to make server chips, but will now be making ARM laptop chips, presumably SQ4 late next year. Those will be custom cores and if Nuvia’s marketing is to be believed (nothing has been released), will be very competitive with Apple’s chips.

SQ2 is quallcomm but i thought i saw rumours of SQ3 being in house. I guess i mixed it up with SQ4.

Yeah nvidia's chips could be competitive too. Either way, i have a feeling that intel and amd wont be the biggest competitors after a little while. My guess is that they will both ride x86 as long as they can, but be pushed aside in laptops by all the arm chips. I also think it will take significantly longer for desktops to switch over to arm. It will probably happen once pretty much all laptops have though, for the sake of app compatibility.

Having more than just two major chip makers is bound to be really good for all of us though. Exciting

 

[Digital_Sousaphone]

If it's AMD chips you want comparisons to, the link I provided gives them as well as detailed explanations for what chips, tests, and settings were chosen and why. Many other reviews online do this as well with both Zen 2 and Zen3 and Comet/Tiger Lake systems. You don't have to read the Anandtech review fo the M1, there are plenty of other such sites that covered it as well and compared to multiple AMD and Intel systems.

A more recent review from Anandtech on Zen 3 mobile (released after the M1 so was not included in the first article) is here:

AMD Ryzen 9 5980HS Cezanne Review: Ryzen 5000 Mobile Tested

www.anandtech.com

Unfortunately most of the benchmarks don't have the M1 for comparison, but a few do. As you can see, Zen 3 mobile, the closest AMD equivalent to the M1, does manage to match, even beat, the M1 in multicore (caveat: unsure about how much power it draws when doing so, but probably better than Zen 2 which required a large power increase to beat the M1), but not single threaded execution where the M1 CPU still maintains a nice lead. However, the M1 is manufactured on a better process node, so that's still a very impressive showing from Zen 3 regardless. AMD has an excellent x86 architecture. The M1 is an excellent ARM architecture. How each evolves should be very interesting. Next year Zen 4 and the M2 will both be manufactured on the exact same (or close enough) process node. Intel ... well ... we'll see what Alder Lake brings.

I appreciate the link. Seriously. But I'm out of here. The bravado and white knighting are out of control.

 

[leman]

Geekbench 5 Results - Geekbench

Geekbench 5 Results - Geekbench

Dang, why isn't the M1 topping those charts?

The answer to your question is very simple: the top entries on Geekbench are heavily overclocked CPUs.

Median single-core GB5 for fastest current AMD CPU (Ryzen 9 5950X) is 1700 (https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarks). Median single-core GB5 for M1 in a Mac Mini is 1710. The 5950X is obviously going to faster in multi-core tests, since it has four times as many cores and uses eight times as much power as M1 under heavy load.

 

[cmaier]

And now we see this morning that M2 entered volume production. Based on new cores. So expect improved single and multi core performance. Performance per watt will also increase. Single core improvement around 20 percent. Multi core not clear - I don’t know how many cores this thing will have.

Everyone else is skating to where the puck is, while Apple is busy moving it down the ice.

 

[cmaier]

Yeah I can't say that I'm a fan of that either, but apparently he has managed to hire some impressive people to Intel - not counting ones brought back out of retirement - e.g. Andre Seznec joined in January. What they'll all accomplish is of course a different story. My attitude: the future is what it'll be and I certainly don't have the industry or engineering experience to prognosticate with any clarity never mind certainty on that particular front.

You think Intel’s Israeli design team wants to be lectured to about how great Jesus is and why they should convert? I don’t even think their Portland design team will put up with such a CEO. And you’d be surprised how often political affiliations and outside activities by the CEO are a factor in recruiting and continuing employment in Silicon Valley. Even if he keeps his mouth shut at the office it will become an issue. Employees who are passed over for promotions and raises will start suing claiming it’s religious discrimination. It’s going to become an issue in time.

 

[Mistborn15]

I should have listened to people and not gotten myself a first gen product. As fast as the M1 is, without fully functional Adobe products (Ai, Id, Pr, Ae), it is like having a nice netbook. Borrowed my friend's old 2017 MBP and it feels like a proper computer. Awful battery but I don't see myself traveling in the near future. I know it is up to Adobe but are there enough of us M1 users to put pressure on them?

 

[BigMcGuire]

You think Intel’s Israeli design team wants to be lectured to about how great Jesus is and why they should convert? I don’t even think their Portland design team will put up with such a CEO. And you’d be surprised how often political affiliations and outside activities by the CEO are a factor in recruiting and continuing employment in Silicon Valley. Even if he keeps his mouth shut at the office it will become an issue. Employees who are passed over for promotions and raises will start suing claiming it’s religious discrimination. It’s going to become an issue in time.

I've worked in my field with religious people and while yes, there are a few who can't help but be biased because of their religion, the vast majority were professional about it and didn't let it affect their interactions with other employees during work hours. The CEO is definitely religious. I read his book just to get an idea (I'm an avid reader) - while I was hoping for more of a history on Intel, it was mostly a book about his spiritual accomplishments and life.

I should have listened to people and not gotten myself a first gen product. As fast as the M1 is, without fully functional Adobe products (Ai, Id, Pr, Ae), it is like having a nice netbook. Borrowed my friend's old 2017 MBP and it feels like a proper computer. Awful battery but I don't see myself traveling in the near future. I know it is up to Adobe but are there enough of us M1 users to put pressure on them?

Dang! A netbook! Hah, I remember those things. I guess I should be happy that my workflow/apps I use regularly doesn't involve Adobe. :/ - Good luck.