I refuse to buy an Apple Silicon Mac with only 8 GB RAM!

[pastrychef]

Posting video is misleading as it describes a known bug present in early versions of macOS 11. It is true that some people have reported excessive SSD writes early on, but fr all we know these issues have been long fixed.




It was a result of a bug in macOS. That's why it's FUD.

Here's a follow up video by the same guy with a later version of macOS.

 

[aevan]

The guy in the video was just editing some photos and exporting some videos with FCP. Neither of which are very rare for many users.

The 650+GB was the result of swap. How do we, as users, know, calculate, or estimate how much swap will happen prior to purchase?

If it's "technically true", how can it be FUD?

I can’t speak for the Air, but 650Gb swapping daily seems highly unlikely for editing photos and exporting videos.

And it’s FUD because there is no way Apple designed these so that they are likely to fail in a year. You might say “but what of the keyboard fiasco?” - keyboards were a new and unfortunate design that was hard to test in real-life conditions, this is something very testable.

I don’t know what the case is here, but I’m fairly certain these disks will last a long time. I guess we’ll know in a couple of years. I certainly think it’s bad advice to install macOS on an external drive for regular use.

 

[senttoschool]

Unless things change drastically in the industry that might take longer than you think. Here's a (log-scaled) chart of Mac base RAM sizes per SKU over the last few decades:

As you can see the rate of increase dropped off dramatically in the past 10-15 years, with 8GB being a common size since ~2012 (compare that to the rate of change from 2002 to 2012). Workloads just aren't getting more RAM-intensive in the same way as they used to be, maybe because so many libraries and websites need to optimize for phones with 2 or 3 GB RAM.

Back a few months when it was the 10th anniversary of the first retina MBP, I thought it'd be fun to look back 10 years to see what people on the forums were saying about it at the time it came out. Can you guess how many posts from 2012 I saw complaining that 8 GB of soldered RAM was unconscionable and would be obsolete in 2 or 3 years' time?

This largely aligns with the cost of RAM over time. Somewhere in 2010, the cost of RAM stopped scaling.

My unresearched guesses on why:

• Smart phone revolution suddenly increased demand for RAM
• Rise of mobile devices forced manufacturers and designers to invest in scaling mobile RAM tech instead of desktop/laptop.
• Consolidation in manufacturers limited competition. Only Micron, Samsung, and SK Hynix are major players left.
• Rise of SSDs allowed acceptable performance when swapping ram
• Exponential progress in SSD speeds further cemented swapping
• Consumer and prosumer applications have reached a point where increases in RAM does not affect performance proportionally
• Applications that require massive amount of RAM have moved to the cloud

I remember using a computer with 64mb of RAM for many years. When I added a 128mb stick to it for a total of 192mb, it changed my computer. It was a revelation. There was a drastic speed up and change in how I used my computer. The only other time I was amazed at a change in computer speed was switching from an HDD to an SSD.

Today, going from 8GB to 16GB does not yield the same. Not even close.

 

[Fishrrman]

pastrychef:
"Perhaps underspecced but I posted it to demonstrate that SSDs have a finite lifespan and too much swap can hasten its demise."

I agree.
I believe we'll start to see a high number of SSD failures in Apple 1tb fusion drives that use the small 24/32gb SSD portions. These small SSDs must be getting hammered with VM swapping (considering many of these Macs probably are running under minimal physical memory).

 

[mikethemartian]

True, everyone is different, but most people actually have similar requirements for a certain class of product. I somehow doubt that most people would write 650+ Gb daily on a 256Gb SSD in an Air (that’s erasing and filling your entire drive three times per day, which is insane). For a person that deals with that much data daily - surely no one would recommend a base-model entry-level device. This video, while technically true, just creates FUD. For 99% of users, these SSDs will last for more than a decade, regardless of their usage.

I think he makes a point of showing that he isn’t doing anything that a typical user wouldn’t do.

 

[leman]

Here's a follow up video by the same guy with a later version of macOS.

Where he demonstrates that the SSD writes have gone down significantly even though the video editing apps still seemed to be affected. Do you have any more recent sources that indicate that there these problems still persist with current versions of macOS?

 

[MayaUser]

Here's a follow up video by the same guy with a later version of macOS.

"Apple has probably done enough to ensure most SSD failures will occur (just) outside the warranty period."

 

[leman]

Consumers would probably be outraged if Apple adopted the Tesla like pricing model of selling with disabled features you could pay to unlock. But sometimes it probably makes a whole lot of sense for consumers, Apple, and the planet.

Arguable, since Apple's supply of RAM modules is not bottomless. The LPDDR5 is already in constrained supply and Apple uses custom version of RAM modules which are probably even more scarce. I very much doubt that they can afford to put 16GB of physical RAM into every SoC they sell. They already have difficulty satisfying the demand as it is now.

 

[leman]

"Apple has probably done enough to ensure most SSD failures will occur (just) outside the warranty period."

Which is a funny thing to say given that Apple offers a warranty-as-subscription in their main markets. If they expect the SSDs to fail en masse AppleCare+ is a terrible business idea.

 

[pastrychef]

I can’t speak for the Air, but 650Gb swapping daily seems highly unlikely for editing photos and exporting videos.

And it’s FUD because there is no way Apple designed these so that they are likely to fail in a year. You might say “but what of the keyboard fiasco?” - keyboards were a new and unfortunate design that was hard to test in real-life conditions, this is something very testable.

I don’t know what the case is here, but I’m fairly certain these disks will last a long time. I guess we’ll know in a couple of years. I certainly think it’s bad advice to install macOS on an external drive for regular use.

Well, he demonstrated it in his video...

I'm positive Apple didn't design for it to fail in a year, neither I nor the guy in the video said that. So where's the FUD?

 

[pastrychef]

Do you have any more recent sources that indicate that there these problems still persist with current versions of macOS?

I haven't looked.

 

[rgwebb]

Which is a funny thing to say given that Apple offers a warranty-as-subscription in their main markets. If they expect the SSDs to fail en masse AppleCare+ is a terrible business idea.

The subscriptions to AppleCare+ is probably small enough that the failure rate is acceptable. Frankly, this is another YouTube and forum spook that will not be appreciably realized in real world usage. But what would tech social media be if it could not freak tf out about the theoretically possible even if it is not probable?

 

[FreedomPenguin]

Idk about you guys but my day 1 M1 iMac has no worries. Worry less use more

 

[Blue Quark]

I'm aware that 8 GB RAM as of now fits most people's needs. And that the Si/ARM SoC technology isn't as RAM dependent as x86.

But macs are so expensive that I want them to last for regular use for a very long time. We know nothing of that now.

I have had my 2012 mini since 2013 and it works just fine. But, then, I installed 16 GB RAM immediately, and feel secure with that. 8 GB RAM for the future, not upgradeble, no way.

If the entry level gets 16 GB of RAM, and today's prices continue, I'll buy one. But not otherwise.

What do you think?

 

[pastrychef]

While Macs with 8GB may "work fine" for many people, not many pay attention to how much swap memory is being used. Swap memory can hide insufficient amount of RAM very well, but at the cost of higher SSD wear.

Apparently, most people here don't care about SSD wear and that's fine. It's their Mac...

Personally, I do care about the longevity of my SSD and Mac and would try to avoid swap as much as realistically possible and that's why I feel 8GB as a base is too little in 2022.

Remember, Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drives if/when the internal SSD fail.

 

[planteater]

There is a lot of "buy what you need today" on these boards, but it can be genuinely hard to know one's needs in even the short term (1-3 yrs), and it can still make sense to "over" purchase extra RAM in particular. Unlike most (all) other upgrades, its really a -need- and not a -want- when you hit the limit.

In my case, I bought the lowest base spec M1 MBA about a year ago -- it was specifically intended to be a light and fast travel machine, since at my home office I was already running an 2019 Intel 16" MBP as a desktop replacement hooked up to a thunderbolt dock which seemed to be doing fine.

But the M1 MBA just blew me away. After a few months I realized that it could run circles actually around my Intel MBP not only in light single-core office work, but also in the high end multi-core scientific computing I need for work (cutting compute times in half while staying cool and usable). Great, I thought! I'll just make this little beast both my travel and desktop replacement machine for 2-3 more years, and then pickup and M2/M3 MBP to replace the Intel MBP as a long term home office desktop replacement.

But when I hooked up the base spec M1 to the dock and external monitor, suddenly the 8GB Ram limit bit hard, and the machine would become sluggish under my normal workflow. But now I still I wanted that high end multi-core performance for my desktop scientific computing in my home office machine. And I definitely didn't want to be running two different machines simultaneously in the home office setup.

So in the end I decided to buy a stock 16" M1 Max now to replace the Intel MBP. Obviously this was way overkill for my needs, but after having been burned by the MBA RAM limit I did not want it to happen again for a long time. I'm now planning for the M1 Max to eventually replace a base spec iMac Pro I have at my work office. And the beastly M1 Air will remain criminally underutilized due solely to its 8GB RAM limit (yet still necessary for work travel, with its small footprint and ability to chew through large PPT presentations with ease that choke the Intel MBAs).

You weren’t burned by the RAM. You were burned by your own lack of awareness for your needs/desires. Your story has zero coalition to the needs of the vast majority of people buying that machine.

 

[mikethemartian]

I can’t speak for the Air, but 650Gb swapping daily seems highly unlikely for editing photos and exporting videos.

And it’s FUD because there is no way Apple designed these so that they are likely to fail in a year. You might say “but what of the keyboard fiasco?” - keyboards were a new and unfortunate design that was hard to test in real-life conditions, this is something very testable.

I don’t know what the case is here, but I’m fairly certain these disks will last a long time. I guess we’ll know in a couple of years. I certainly think it’s bad advice to install macOS on an external drive for regular use.

It seems like a perfect way to upsell Apple Care and get buyers to upgrade their machines every couple of years.

 

[Apple Fan 2008]

even if it has 18 GB of Ram, it doesnt change the substance: you have no control over the item whatsoever.

What do you mean upgradeabality? Yeah I agree with that especially on pro products. They should be upgradable, but Apple does let you put other operating systems on your computer like Linux. In fact, there’s a version of Linux being made for Apple silicon.

 

[mikethemartian]

Which is a funny thing to say given that Apple offers a warranty-as-subscription in their main markets. If they expect the SSDs to fail en masse AppleCare+ is a terrible business idea.

How much does it cost Apple to rework a logic board to replace the SSDs? Do they guarantee when they replace your logic board it is a brand new part and not reworked?

 

[gpat]

"Apple has probably done enough to ensure most SSD failures will occur (just) outside the warranty period."

Videos like this are clickbaiting nonsense, but still I think Apple is being too stingy with RAM on some Apple models.
The M2 MBA and iMac should be offered with at least 1 choice featuring 16GB RAM without resorting to BTO options. That would appease almost every user.

 

[jav6454]

Many of them in common with why they switched to Apple silicon

Agreed. Although I might add one new one. The fact that Apple learned how to make CPUs for the iPhone. Made them realize, making them for a Mac would be a time away, but within the possibility, and here we are.

 

[senttoschool]

The M2 MBA and iMac should be offered with at least 1 choice featuring 16GB RAM without resorting to BTO options. That would appease almost every user.

I definitely agree with this. The reason why is because wanting a 16GB option usually requires a custom order. If I can just get a 16GB from Amazon anytime, that's convenient.

 

[ADGrant]

I’ll be waiting for that, then.

No need to wait, the base 14" MBP already comes with 16GB of RAM.

 

[ADGrant]

I definitely agree with this. The reason why is because wanting a 16GB option usually requires a custom order. If I can just get a 16GB from Amazon anytime, that's convenient.

And you can just get 16GB from Amazon, just buy the base 14" MBP. Its even cheaper from BestBuy though, just $1700 and you can walk out of the store with one. No wait at all.

 

[Fruit Stand]

I'm aware that 8 GB RAM as of now fits most people's needs. And that the Si/ARM SoC technology isn't as RAM dependent as x86.

But macs are so expensive that I want them to last for regular use for a very long time. We know nothing of that now.

I have had my 2012 mini since 2013 and it works just fine. But, then, I installed 16 GB RAM immediately, and feel secure with that. 8 GB RAM for the future, not upgradeble, no way.

If the entry level gets 16 GB of RAM, and today's prices continue, I'll buy one. But not otherwise.

What do you think?

This is the dumbest post and position to take.

8GB works for most people that surf the web and do word processing using these machines which is what MOST users are buying them for, so Apple has catered to that segment and given those who need more to choose the options that work for them.

Sheesh, this post screams ME ME ME