If Apple notebooks were built like Thinkpads, I would own one

[psycho bob]

That's great if you are buying a notebook to turn heads.

But as I said in the rest of the post the whole design is solid as well. Feature packed with a solid balance of performance, weight and battery life. Are they the best in all those areas no but that's life for you; a balancing act. The fact they are visually stunning is a huge added bonus, great technology doesn't have to be ugly.

 

[zap2]

That's great if you are buying a notebook to turn heads.

And add in the fact there damn fast, and you got a winner


And for those who say Rev A Apple stuff is terrible, my Rev A intel Mac Mini is working flawlessly thank you very much

 

[bousozoku]

It it funny how people all have different experiences with customer service. I have always had horrible service from Apple. However, when I had an IBM thinkpad IBM was always very helpful when I had problems. It seems some people on this forum have had the exact opposite experience tho.. strange.

I suppose that it's possible, depending on the severity that you had good service from IBM PC people. I used to deal with the larger machines and even their service was going downhill. Of course, with those machines, they would sometimes call us and ask us about a problem the Service Director software was reporting.

I dealt with IBM generally concerning 25-75 PCs at any given corporate location. There were problems that they just couldn't solve.

From what I've heard of Apple technical support, I'm glad I don't have to call them. The software developers and hardware engineers generally do a good job but they have to get a handle on their sub-contractors to make certain that more than 95 % of the machines come out right. Still, being on the Apple technical support line has its problems--Mac-o-lytes. There is nothing worse than trying to talk through a problem with someone who is fanatically certain, no matter how much you know.

 

[Chrispy]

I suppose all companies have their customer support issues. I just varies from person to person what kind of support you get on the other end of the phone.

Regarding all the problems I have seen, is it possible for an Apple store to get in an entire bad lot of computers. I have noticed that both my macbooks that had problems and my roommate's macbook that whines and moos were all week 24 machines. Also, all the macbook pros on display that are screaming with the whine are the same week as well. Would I be better off ordering straight from Apple to ensure I got the newest machine off the assembly line?

 

[yadmonkey]

great technology doesn't have to be ugly.

I agree. Again, I think Lombard/Pismo is the pinnacle of great design aesthetics and stability. I wishl Apple notebooks should be made from the same plastic they used on these models. Tough to stain, scratch, scuff, or damage, and sexy as hell. And the slightly arched top protects the screen in a way which I don't think is possible with their aluminum ultra-thin design.

And when dropped, it usually bounces. I don't think I've ever seen a broken bit of plastic on a Lombard/Pismo and I've seen them dropped plenty of times. Aluminum, on the other hand, bends and dents in such a way that the case can be easily ruined by a drop or dent. This I've seen many times.

 

[psycho bob]

Would I be better off ordering straight from Apple to ensure I got the newest machine off the assembly line?

I've always bought my machines online from Apple or via their website using the phone. I've always had impecable service from them. It does sound like the MBP just went through a particularly bad production batch. All the new ones I've seen have been very well behaved.

 

[psycho bob]

I agree. Again, I think Lombard/Pismo is the pinnacle of great design aesthetics and stability. I wishl Apple notebooks should be made from the same plastic they used on these models. Tough to stain, scratch, scuff, or damage, and sexy as hell. And the slightly arched top protects the screen in a way which I don't think is possible with their aluminum ultra-thin design.

And when dropped, it usually bounces. I don't think I've ever seen a broken bit of plastic on a Lombard/Pismo and I've seen them dropped plenty of times. Aluminum, on the other hand, bends and dents in such a way that the case can be easily ruined by a drop or dent. This I've seen many times.

I liked the old G3's but wouldn't swap the design for the new ones. Just a matter of personal taste. Screen marks is an issue without a screen protector but the use Wildpeepz works wonders. Why Apple can't use bigger screen cushions I don't know, they also save the latches.

 

[DevilsRejection]

at this point i would wait to see what wwdc brings out

 

[generik]

I cant agree any more, when i had to call tech support i actually got a asian first then i rang again and was transfered higher up and got a australian.

So what i reccomended is to sound technical and try to get transfered higher up

Ever occurred to you that there are actually asian australians?

 

[milozauckerman]

What good is radical design when the end-product is flawed and occasionally unusable. Apple could solve numerous issues (that exist, despite Kool-Aiders' claims to the contrary - people who can hear the whine or moo aren't crazy) simply by not trying to be OMG THINNEST LIGHTEST BESTEST EVER.

Form should follow function. Make the MBP just ever so much thicker, like every other laptop on the market, to dissipate heat better (or simply do it better, like Lenovo) - who'll notice? Are Mac users really incapable of carrying a laptop that's a half inch thicker? Who can tell anyway?

I have a real problem with Apple's function follows form design philosophy, which seems to be a top-down issue (thanks, Jobs) and extends from hardware to software (cf. the fake Leopard photos with the porthole effect - that seems like the kind of useless, gimmicky nonsense Apple would give us rather than an OS that 'just works'). Alas, there ain't nothing better at hand.

 

[dpaanlka]

What good is radical design when the end-product is flawed and occasionally unusable. Apple could solve numerous issues (that exist, despite Kool-Aiders' claims to the contrary - people who can hear the whine or moo aren't crazy) simply by not trying to be OMG THINNEST LIGHTEST BESTEST EVER.

Well, every PowerBook and MacBook Pro I or my family has owned so far seems to be perfect.

I do not want a thick laptop, I'll take the mooing. Even though it doesn't moo, and I have yet to hear this moo in person.

The sound clips of what people claim is the moo sounds so quiet, how does that make it unuseable? I think a statement like that does make you crazy, especially when there are so many blaringly loud PC laptops out there.

Nothing matches my PowerBook 1400 though - with no fan and a solid state hard drive.

 

[DevilsRejection]

thinkpad t and x series

they're smaller then the mbp and the mb, but they don't run os x which is a shame

the x60s especially, 8 hours battery life with the high capacity battery, 3.2 pounds, core duo chip

doesn't have an optical drive, frankly i don't want one, i want an ultra portable that's solidly built, and apple doesn't make that

watch the video review yourself: http://reviews.cnet.com/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X60s/4505-3121_7-31786426.html

 

[zap2]

i want an ultra portable that's solidly built, and apple doesn't make that

Then why compare a fake Mac vs a real PC,or if your going MacBook vs ThinkPad ultra portable, they are 2 different laptops

 

[DevilsRejection]

Then why compare a fake Mac vs a real PC,or if your going MacBook vs ThinkPad ultra portable, they are 2 different laptops

??? apple doesn't make ultra portables, i want them to, and build them solid as hell too

so we all have a baseline, ultraportable means less than 4 pounds. macbook = 5.2 = huge

 

[dpaanlka]

I'm quickly losing grasp of this conversation.

Devils, are you saying the 17" MacBook is a bad design becuase you want an ultra-portable?

 

[milozauckerman]

Why don't you want a 'thick laptop'? What does an extra inch of depth mean to you in any way, if that inch means the computer runs 10C cooler? Where does this idea that the 'best design' (aesthetically and in usability) is the smallest and thinnest?

I do not want a thick laptop, I'll take the mooing. Even though it doesn't moo, and I have yet to hear this moo in person.

That does not mean the moo (or whine or heat problems don't exist). I returned a MBP that developed the whine ten days in, for no apparent reason. It never ran hot (though I felt some in-store that were smokin' - both MB and MBP early demos). I've heard the moo myself.

That I had a MBP without a moo or heat issue (idled at 43C - a real regret that it had to go in) doesn't mean they don't exist or that it couldn't be a big problem for some users.

The sound clips of what people claim is the moo sounds so quiet, how does that make it unuseable? I think a statement like that does make you crazy, especially when there are so many blaringly loud PC laptops out there.

You're hearing a bad recording with an on-camera mic over a short period of time with someone talking (in the videos). This is nothing like sitting a foot away from the MB/MBP in a quiet room.

You're dismissing problems without evidence to the contrary, despite numerous, documented claims of their existence.

I never owned a Ford Explorer, but I understand that some older ones had problems with exploding gas tanks. That problem didn't not exist because I never saw it.


Undoubtedly, some examples of the MB/MBP do not exhibit the documented issues. And some people can't hear the whine. And some people aren't bothered by the moo. But many people are, and they make a laptop near-unusable (or unusable). For $1200-2700, workarounds and 'just dealing with it' are not reasonable options.

I could have run the mirror widget constantly or quietMBP, sacrificing battery life and usability - but I then still have to sell it some day, disclosing the whine issue up front. How much does that cost me on the back end?

The problems exist, and they are problems for the people raising them. If yours (editorial you, not you specifically) is perfect, wonderful - don't belittle anyone else.

 

[DevilsRejection]

I'm quickly losing grasp of this conversation.

Devils, are you saying the 17" MacBook is a bad design becuase you want an ultra-portable?

not at all, i'm bitching and moaning about the quality and assurance of the product testing lab at apple. period. screw the design arguments, i'm not talking about that.

 

[psycho bob]

I have a real problem with Apple's function follows form design philosophy, which seems to be a top-down issue (thanks, Jobs) and extends from hardware to software (cf. the fake Leopard photos with the porthole effect - that seems like the kind of useless, gimmicky nonsense Apple would give us rather than an OS that 'just works'). Alas, there ain't nothing better at hand.

I really don't think that is the case. Form and function go hand in hand with Apple design the G5 Powermac is evidence of this. The 15in MBP is a cock up, the Superdrive issue backs this up, it was done quickly to get the product out that will always be my opinion. The 17in MBP does not have the same issues and is not compromised, it is a superb piece of design like the 17in PB before it. It is thin but sacrifices nothing and is not overly hot.

If OS X was worse then XP or Vista I'd agree but it isn't, 10.4.6 like all the versions before it have been rock solid for me no issues what so ever. The same cannot be said about M$ who are now desperately trying to add eye candy before getting the basics right.

I've heard the mooing first hand and in videos posted by those with the supposed problem, compared to fan noise on my Rev A 17in PB and numerous PC's it is nothing at all.

 

[dpaanlka]

Why don't you want a 'thick laptop'? What does an extra inch of depth mean to you in any way, if that inch means the computer runs 10C cooler? Where does this idea that the 'best design' (aesthetically and in usability) is the smallest and thinnest?

Ya know, technically, it's not even a problem - it's just the sound of the fan spinning up or down. It is totally subjective if you think that it is a problem. I don't consider it a problem, and I'll gladly take a super thin MacBook that *might* moo once in a while under heavy load, or makes a barely discernable whine. A light moo is way better than the horrendous sounds other PC laptops make. So stop saying its a flaw, that's just your opinion.

I haven't heard of any MacBooks outright failing.

EDIT: I've held my ear up to every single laptop in this house (two PowerBook G4s, one MacBook Pro, one PowerBook G3, one iBook G3, one PowerBook 1400, five PowerBook 500s, and three PowerBook Duos) - and they ALL make some sort of whine noise when they are powered on.

 

[zap2]

??? apple doesn't make ultra portables, i want them to, and build them solid as hell too

so we all have a baseline, ultraportable means less than 4 pounds. macbook = 5.2 = huge

5.2 Lbs is not huge.. at ALL(might not be what you want but its not huge, look at a gamer 20'' laptop for huge, but its ok because they are built to be big and powerful)

At the start of the thread you said you wanted a stronger Apple laptop, now you want an Ultra Portable one?

I don't think you have every owned an Apple laptop have you? it might not be "thinkpad" strong but its not weak.


Oh and as for a whine of MacBooks, i can't hear it on my brother's MacBook AT ALL, now his iMac G4 is much louder but i don't here anyone complaining about that mac. Yes some MacBook/MBP might whine/moo but its not as bad as many people make it out to be(also its not on everyone)

 

[DevilsRejection]

i'm saying what i personally want, but the whole line needs a kick in the ass when it comes to product testing.

and 5.2 pounds for a 13.3 inch is huge, if sony can make a laptop with the same specs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EE5DAY/002-1358399-2336009?v=glance&n=541966

and have it weight 4.1 pounds you have to ask yourself, where did it gain 1.1 pounds from?

 

[Chrispy]

i'm saying what i personally want, but the whole line needs a kick in the ass when it comes to product testing.

Yeah, the apple portable line does need to have more testing done before they put a product out the door. I really want a 15" MBP but I'm not sure they have fixed the issues in them yet

On another note, I have been running Vista Beta 2 all day and it really is not impressive. OSX is still far more easy to use and functional.

 

[Cybix]

thinkpad *chuckle*

Once upon a time thinkpads were indeed the bomb, back in the day when thinkpads were good..

I use a thinkpad at work. I'll admit, it's only an R52... I've also used / setup some X series for some exec's here...

What a horrible (ugly) machine to look at, and work on. I speak only from experience!

Then I turn on my 15" MBP. it oozes sex, and is ten times nicer to look at than this peice of crap I'm typing on right now.

I remember when I started working here 5 weeks ago.. the boss says "we'll order you a new laptop"... ooh how exciting. "yes, it will be a thinkpad" *groan*.

Do I need to smoke something to enjoy a thinkpad? maybe so.....

hrmmm 1024x768, how exciting *vomit*..

I should complain, I'm comparing a $1k machine to a $3k machine..

 

[wako]

Why the heck would you want to do that

Aluminium will bend, it is soft in its raw form compared to other metals but I don't really see your point. I can lift my 17in Powerbook up open by grabbing one of its corners; it doesn't creek, bend or flex it is plenty strong enough. There is a big difference between a materials properties and how it behaves used in a structure. The design of the Al models is stiff enough.

Aluminum can indeed be straightened out if bent, in what way is this bad? It is still very strong. I've seen PC plastic notebooks and TiBooks dropped all of which suffered damage that could not simply be 'bent' out. The Ti construction involved gluing the material on to an internal chassis, the panels were very thin and easily became punctured or sprained. Once sprung they were also hard to glue back. Plastic's can be designed to adsorb (lexan for one) impact but most PC cases just crack breaking clips and shredding screw holes. The Ti models didn't have the rigidity of the Al models because although as a raw material it is very strong and rigid it was used in such thin sheets such properties were not present.

The move to Al not only allowed for better heat management but also thicker one piece shells which are inherantly more rigid without sacrificing too much in the way of weight. This is why I stress that construction is every bit as important as the choice of material itself. As Apple did with the use of Polycarbonate they maximise their designs for the chosen materials.

Ummmmmmmmmmmm.....


Read CounterFit's posts... thats why I was saying all those things. He claimed the Aluminum casing is very strong and "stiff."

 

[zap2]

and 5.2 pounds for a 13.3 inch is huge, if sony can make a laptop with the same specs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EE5DAY/002-1358399-2336009?v=glance&n=541966

and have it weight 4.1 pounds you have to ask yourself, where did it gain 1.1 pounds from?

Well add in the MagSafe, iSight, and the placing of the Hard Drive and RAM(its possible they wasted space to make it easy to upgrade)

And that they Sony is 2k vs MacBook's 1200(after tax) it worth the more weight IMO, but its possible Apple will get a lighter MacBook on Rev A

(and for the price, a equally speced MacBook is still about 400 lees then it)