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Would you buy an ARM iMac?


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Until you get the benchmarks on the same OS with the same priorities, with the same limitations, you are making a "hand-wavy" argument and hoping you are correct.

No, "because 'priorities' and 'limitations'" is the hand-wavy argument here - unless you'd like to come up with some concrete fact-based explanation as to what might make an iPad appear unrealistically fast at things like video encoding or running standard benchmark algorithms.

We're not at the stage of proving that an ARM is going to be faster than x86 at any particular workload - nobody here is claiming that. Yes, synthetic benchmarks are no substitute for testing the applications you want to use - but until we actually have an ARMintosh to test, its the best we can do - and the fact that they are even in the same ballpark as x86 results suggests that its quite feasible suitably-configured ARM chips could compete with x86. That's all that I'm claiming at the moment.
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So, looking up the published Geekbench 4 results, that's the $3000 i9 hex-core-plus-hyperthreading space-heater with turbo-boost and extra cache up against the $800 iPad's A12x (which is only 4 'big' cores + 4 'low-power' cores).

Its amazing that the results even have the same number of digits. The MacBook Air - which a $800 tablet might logically compete with - has a MC geekbench 4 of ~7400. Or, for single-core (probably more relevant at that end) ~4000 for the Air vs, ~5000 for the iPad.

Yes, it will be very interesting to see MacOS benchmarks on an A12X.
 
No, "because 'priorities' and 'limitations'" is the hand-wavy argument here - unless you'd like to come up with some concrete fact-based explanation as to what might make an iPad appear unrealistically fast at things like video encoding or running standard benchmark algorithms.

Do your own research on the differences between desktop operating systems and mobile operating systems. The purpose and focus of the operating systems is different.

I did not say that an "iPad was made to appear unrealistically fast at things like video encoding". I said the differences in resources and focus of the operating systems make the benchmarks an invalid comparison.

We're not at the stage of proving that an ARM is going to be faster than x86 at any particular workload - nobody here is claiming that. Yes, synthetic benchmarks are no substitute for testing the applications you want to use - but until we actually have an ARMintosh to test, its the best we can do - and the fact that they are even in the same ballpark as x86 results suggests that its quite feasible suitably-configured ARM chips could compete with x86. That's all that I'm claiming at the moment.

I believe the operating system focus is such that the benchmarks are an invalid comparison. You seem to think the operating system and the supporting architecture doesn't factor into the performance. I think they are as important as the processor.

A computer with a general purpose operating system is always going to have different performance characteristics than a closed purpose built mobile device with a mobile operating system. People keep waving the benchmarks around like that answers the question on relative performance. My point is that it doesn't.
 
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Yes if the mac is an ARM12" Macbook
NO if the mac is an ARM 27" imac/ macbook pro/mac pro
 
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Do your own research on the differences between desktop operating systems and mobile operating systems.

Your initial description of those differences was: "Until they can get, display, and benchmark a chip with a real preemptive multitasking operating system like MacOS" - since iOS is a "preemptive multitasking operating system" I don't think its me that needs to do the research. You're the one claiming that the benchmark results are invalid - so its up to you to back that claim up.

You seem to think the operating system and the supporting architecture doesn't factor into the performance.

No, I just don't think the "operating system and supporting architecture" are so fundamentally different between the iPad Pro and (certainly the lower-end) Macs as to totally invalidate the geekbench, video encoding and JPEG encoding results.

If we were comparing (say) a tablet and an enterprise server or an ultrabook and a Xeon-class desktop workstation, or a home NAS to an ultrabook, you'd absolutely have a point. Even with "Linux" systems, you don't run the same, stock, kernel configuration on a set-top box and a supercomputer, even if the processors are the same. Some systems are optimised for real-time, others for graphics, others for hordes of users making database queries etc. That's Linux, of course, where you have to re-compile the whole kernel (done that a few times) - its different MacOS/iOS

Thing is, though, the latest iPad Pros, the Air and the 12" MB are all designed to do pretty much the same things. They're general purpose computing systems, with a Unix-type operating system designed to run productivity software, wordprocessors, graphics, light video editing, multitasking, primarily single-user etc. optimised for long battery life. Comparing how fast the iPad can transcode videos vs. a MB Air is absolutely valid.

The iPad vs. top-end 15" MacBook Pro i9 thing is a bit of a red herring - the A12X with a "4 big/4 small" core architecture is not intended to compete with a 6-core hyperthreaded i9 - what's amazing is that the single-thread benchmarks are even remotely similar. Perfectly possible to build an ARM with 8 full-size cores, though (there are already 32-core ARM-based chips out there)...
 
Your initial description of those differences was: "Until they can get, display, and benchmark a chip with a real preemptive multitasking operating system like MacOS" - since iOS is a "preemptive multitasking operating system" I don't think its me that needs to do the research. You're the one claiming that the benchmark results are invalid - so its up to you to back that claim up.

I have told you why I believe the benchmarks are invalid. You want to believe the hardware and operating systems are close enough to be valid. You want to believe a Macbook/MacOs/x86 and iPad/iOS/ARM are the same. I don't.
 
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I skimmed the thread so excuse me if this has been debunked or whatever. However I assume some software will have an emulation layer while other software is updated for native ARM instruction. So I would want to wait and validate all my software works and runs BETTER (why "upgrade" if not?) and then I would consider it. Also I would be curious how graphics are handled for higher end machines. Same with thunderbolt, unlikely it will be piped right into the CPU.

Meh, we'll see should be interesting.
 
Lol. What a joke.

Not sure what Intel has done to earn such praise.

I didn't see him praise Intel unless it was somewhere else above?

For me, it is all about the ARM vs. x86 ecosystems and the tools I currently utilize and has nothing to do with the source of the CPUs. I'll wait and let others test the ARM walled garden that Apple creates.

For what I do, I can't see how it would benefit me.
 
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AMD yes, ARM no. It would mean I couldn't run any Windows VMs. I rely on Windows server VMs for testing - I need AD, etc and cannot run test in Azure or AWS I have to rely on local VM's. For everything else I would actually be fine with ARM, so long as Adobe CC and CaptureOne worked okay.
I'm curious, why can't you use Azure or AWS?
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The transition from PPC to intel was a very slow process. I would expect no less with any ARM transition.
Plus, we gained the ability to run Windows VMs in the process. With x86 to ARM, we would lose that. Kiss any Windows-only apps goodbye, at least if you want them to run at decent speeds.
 
Not until a number of third party apps were recompiled for macOS, and ARM software for Windows machines were also readily available.

By recompiling you mean rewriting the application, right? If it were just recompiling, we would already have the same apps across MacOS, tvOS, iOS...
 
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By recompiling you mean rewriting the application, right? If it were just recompiling, we would already have the same apps across MacOS, tvOS, iOS...
No, recompiling is correct here, because the framework used is the same irrespective of running on macOS ARM or macOS x86. So given your code does not include x86 or other hardware specific code recompiling is all that's required.

On the other hand, frameworks used on iOS are to some degree different from macOS, in particular UI frameworks, so code used on the Mac does not necessarily run on iOS and vice versa.
 
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I'm curious, why can't you use Azure or AWS?
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Plus, we gained the ability to run Windows VMs in the process. With x86 to ARM, we would lose that. Kiss any Windows-only apps goodbye, at least if you want them to run at decent speeds.

I can use Azure and AWS for some of my work, but it would prove to be too expensive compared to running on prem VMs to have it for everything. Plus I don't always have internet access when I'm onsite. Running everything in cloud would be great but I can't afford it.
 
I think one of the sticking points on this idea is not anything technical between ARM64 and x86-64 but rather Apple's recent abysmal track-record in letting particular products get totally out-of-date before replacing them with radical departures, forcing anybody who needs to replace old/broken/stolen/out-of-support/end-of-lease hardware/equip new employees/etc. to become an unwitting early adopter.

See: Mac Pro (last updated in 2013 - suddenly replaced with a far higher-end machine at nearly 2x the price), Mac Mini (2014 cheap laptop-in-a-box replaced with 2018 desktop-class-without-GPU at 1.5x the price), MacBook Pro (nearly 2 years out of date - long for a mainstream product - when the radical late-2016 re-design was launched), MacBook Air... and with the 12" rMB and even the iMac Pro heading that way.

So, understandably, some people here are writing as if their Intel Mac is going to be torn from their grasp overnight. A switch to ARM would be a disaster if Apple don't keep the Intel option viable for a few years yet.

By recompiling you mean rewriting the application, right? If it were just recompiling, we would already have the same apps across MacOS, tvOS, iOS.

It depends from application to application, but for applications written in high-level-languages (C/ObjC/Swift etc.) the processor type should be almost irrelevant - whereas changing from iOS to/from MacOS or tvOS could be a big deal that involves re-inventing the user interface and using a different application framework. (That's something that Apple's 'Project Catalyst' promises to make easier - but probably only for existing iOS apps or new MacOS apps).


So in many cases, ARM support will be just a case of re-compiling (and testing, so never completely trivial) - or maybe making some minor tweaks. Some of the big potential issues - 64 vx 32 vs 8 bit and 'little endian' vs. 'big endian' and the actual number of bits used by some data types don't change between x86-64 and ARM64 and/or when you're still using the same developer tools.

There will, of course, be major exceptions - especially in big, complex packages and double-especially where they've been ported from Windows - where developers have used processor-specific assembly language for speed to utilise processor-specific vector/SIMDs/codec features, but that should be less prevalent today than for the Intel switch in 2005 and especially the 68k-to-PPC switch in the 90s - not only do we have faster processors and better compilers (so there's less need to use processor-specific code for speed) but modern OSs have high-level frameworks for graphics, vector processing, GPU-based computing etc. that help keep processor-specific code out of Apps.

Certainly, any applications not being actively maintained will go extinct - but that is going to happen anyway when MacOS Catalina drops 32-bit support - in many cases, supporting ARM will be a similar level of effort to converting to 64 bit. I'd assume that its the big 'pro' packages that do hardcore number-crunching and have legions of obscure third-party add-ins that will be the big stumbling blocks, so the Mac Pro/iMac Pro would logically be the last to go ARM.

To put it slightly trollishly - if you want your computing platform of choice to be held back by a small core of legacy applications that rely on ancient codebases - that's largely what makes Windows what it is (although MS are trying with Win10).


Plus, we gained the ability to run Windows VMs in the process. With x86 to ARM, we would lose that.

True - but should supporting the ability to run Windows apps on a Mac be a priority?

While I'm not saying you don't need Windows virtualization today I think it's a diminishing need in a computing world that has been changed beyond recognition from the totally Windows-centric world of 2005 by the increased use of mobile devices and web technology.

When I substantially switched to Mac as my main machine ~2006, the ability to run Windows was invaluable. In the last year or two I'm finding that I use it less and less (esp. now Affinity designer has arrowheads ! :) ). In the BYOD era, many obscure in-house Windows apps are being replaced with web-based apps, and websites/apps that require Internet Explorer are (thankfully dying out). Where I do use Windows for testing I'm finding it lacking, have found a number of 'red herring' problems that have to do with virtualization, and am probably going to need to get a Windows convertible so I can test things on touchscreens.
 
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I have an iMac for webdevelopment, but I also use it to play games via Bootcamp. So a ARM iMac is a no-go for me.

I also share a MacBook Air with my wife, were we just use ordinary apps, so I would be fine with an ARM MacBook.
 
Yep, I'd jump - straight to Linux on non-Apple hardware.

It would annoy me to have crummy trackpads on my laptops. But the good trackpad would be the one thing I'd really miss.

a weird phenomena I have run across on the Hackintosh world.... I have found that crappy trackpads on PC laptops actually behave better with OSX than they do with Windows (provided they have a proper driver)
 
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I guess it depends on what you do for a living.

For example, if you are an engineer and need to use SolidWorks, you must have Windows. If you are in the data business and need to use Alteryx, DemandTools (for Salesforce), or Power BI -- Windows only.

And I don't see those companies EVER making a version for ARM-based MacOS. It would be interesting to see if companies like AutoCAD make the move, though.

I think one of the sticking points on this idea is not anything technical between ARM64 and x86-64 but rather Apple's recent abysmal track-record in letting particular products get totally out-of-date before replacing them with radical departures, forcing anybody who needs to replace old/broken/stolen/out-of-support/end-of-lease hardware/equip new employees/etc. to become an unwitting early adopter.

See: Mac Pro (last updated in 2013 - suddenly replaced with a far higher-end machine at nearly 2x the price), Mac Mini (2014 cheap laptop-in-a-box replaced with 2018 desktop-class-without-GPU at 1.5x the price), MacBook Pro (nearly 2 years out of date - long for a mainstream product - when the radical late-2016 re-design was launched), MacBook Air... and with the 12" rMB and even the iMac Pro heading that way.

So, understandably, some people here are writing as if their Intel Mac is going to be torn from their grasp overnight. A switch to ARM would be a disaster if Apple don't keep the Intel option viable for a few years yet.



It depends from application to application, but for applications written in high-level-languages (C/ObjC/Swift etc.) the processor type should be almost irrelevant - whereas changing from iOS to/from MacOS or tvOS could be a big deal that involves re-inventing the user interface and using a different application framework. (That's something that Apple's 'Project Catalyst' promises to make easier - but probably only for existing iOS apps or new MacOS apps).


So in many cases, ARM support will be just a case of re-compiling (and testing, so never completely trivial) - or maybe making some minor tweaks. Some of the big potential issues - 64 vx 32 vs 8 bit and 'little endian' vs. 'big endian' and the actual number of bits used by some data types don't change between x86-64 and ARM64 and/or when you're still using the same developer tools.

There will, of course, be major exceptions - especially in big, complex packages and double-especially where they've been ported from Windows - where developers have used processor-specific assembly language for speed to utilise processor-specific vector/SIMDs/codec features, but that should be less prevalent today than for the Intel switch in 2005 and especially the 68k-to-PPC switch in the 90s - not only do we have faster processors and better compilers (so there's less need to use processor-specific code for speed) but modern OSs have high-level frameworks for graphics, vector processing, GPU-based computing etc. that help keep processor-specific code out of Apps.

Certainly, any applications not being actively maintained will go extinct - but that is going to happen anyway when MacOS Catalina drops 32-bit support - in many cases, supporting ARM will be a similar level of effort to converting to 64 bit. I'd assume that its the big 'pro' packages that do hardcore number-crunching and have legions of obscure third-party add-ins that will be the big stumbling blocks, so the Mac Pro/iMac Pro would logically be the last to go ARM.

To put it slightly trollishly - if you want your computing platform of choice to be held back by a small core of legacy applications that rely on ancient codebases - that's largely what makes Windows what it is (although MS are trying with Win10).




True - but should supporting the ability to run Windows apps on a Mac be a priority?

While I'm not saying you don't need Windows virtualization today I think it's a diminishing need in a computing world that has been changed beyond recognition from the totally Windows-centric world of 2005 by the increased use of mobile devices and web technology.

When I substantially switched to Mac as my main machine ~2006, the ability to run Windows was invaluable. In the last year or two I'm finding that I use it less and less (esp. now Affinity designer has arrowheads ! :) ). In the BYOD era, many obscure in-house Windows apps are being replaced with web-based apps, and websites/apps that require Internet Explorer are (thankfully dying out). Where I do use Windows for testing I'm finding it lacking, have found a number of 'red herring' problems that have to do with virtualization, and am probably going to need to get a Windows convertible so I can test things on touchscreens.
 
The loss of full backwards compatibility and ability to run x86 Windows (not the gimped ARM variant) and its x86 applications natively (without having to suffer a performance loss from emulation) would far out-weigh any potential performance and energy efficiency benefits for me if some future desktop class A series chip is used in Macs.

This is particularly true for me in a desktop computer (where battery life is no concern).

With all this talk of Intel under-delivering with regard to thermal performance and 10nm processors, a switch to AMD (which has been releasing excellent Ryzen and Threadripper x86 CPUs) would provide immediate performance and efficiency improvements while maintaining full x86 compatibility.

AMD's 3rd Gen 7nm Ryzen chips are being released in a few days (with further performance and efficiency improvements), why hasn't this been discussed as a potential future option?

It seems like everybody views Intel as the only option in the x86 space for some reason. However, Apple has clearly been willing to switch sides in the past (i.e. from nVidia to AMD GPUs - though I wish they'd partially switch back in that space). A switch from Intel to AMD would be minor and completely painless compared to a massive shift in CPU architecture that would be x86 to ARM
 
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A switch from Intel to AMD would be minor and completely painless compared to a massive shift in CPU architecture that would be x86 to ARM

So where are AMD when it comes to mobile chips? My impression of the current x86 market is that the sweet spots are Intel for laptops and AMD for desktops. Laptops are probably more important to Apple than desktops - and they probably get better deals from Intel by sticking to Intel CPUs across the board.

The "sweet spot" for a Ryzen Mac would seem to be exactly the sort of desktop "xMac" system that they seem quite determined, for whatever reason, not to produce.

Anyway, the main point of Apple moving to ARM for Macs would not be performance, but Apple's ability to build their own systems-on-a-chip, optimised for the products that they want to make, rather than be tied to whatever range of models Intel deigns to produce. Plus, maybe, long-term, not having to support iOS and MacOS on both x86 and ARM. Switching to AMD doesn't solve that.

The need to run x86 windows is clearly critical to some people - but so is the need for NVIDIA GPUs, a decent headless desktop at < $6000 or a laptop with a... less devisive keyboard - it comes down to how many need those things, and its a shrinking pool. If Apple decided to move to ARM it would be based on the economics of mainstream MacBook Air and MacBook Pro users - the majority of whom just wouldn't notice a switch to ARM provided that MS ported Office ASAP.
 
So where are AMD when it comes to mobile chips? My impression of the current x86 market is that the sweet spots are Intel for laptops and AMD for desktops. Laptops are probably more important to Apple than desktops - and they probably get better deals from Intel by sticking to Intel CPUs across the board.

The "sweet spot" for a Ryzen Mac would seem to be exactly the sort of desktop "xMac" system that they seem quite determined, for whatever reason, not to produce.

Anyway, the main point of Apple moving to ARM for Macs would not be performance, but Apple's ability to build their own systems-on-a-chip, optimised for the products that they want to make, rather than be tied to whatever range of models Intel deigns to produce. Plus, maybe, long-term, not having to support iOS and MacOS on both x86 and ARM. Switching to AMD doesn't solve that.

The need to run x86 windows is clearly critical to some people - but so is the need for NVIDIA GPUs, a decent headless desktop at < $6000 or a laptop with a... less devisive keyboard - it comes down to how many need those things, and its a shrinking pool. If Apple decided to move to ARM it would be based on the economics of mainstream MacBook Air and MacBook Pro users - the majority of whom just wouldn't notice a switch to ARM provided that MS ported Office ASAP.

Sadly, this is why I probably won't be able to follow the Mac to the ARM/Ax platform.
 
Sadly, this is why I probably won't be able to follow the Mac to the ARM/Ax platform.

I wouldn't panic just yet - the Mac Pro means they've committed themselves to supporting Intel for a few years yet, and unless they're mouth-frothing insane they'll announce the move at WWDC and release a developers system 6 months+ before launching a mainstream ARM Mac.

Although this debate was stirred bp by a fairly convincing leak allegedly from Intel, after what they said about iPadOS at WWDC I suspect that their plan is to groom the iPad to gradually replace Macs from the bottom up.
 
I wouldn't panic just yet - the Mac Pro means they've committed themselves to supporting Intel for a few years yet, and unless they're mouth-frothing insane they'll announce the move at WWDC and release a developers system 6 months+ before launching a mainstream ARM Mac.

Although this debate was stirred bp by a fairly convincing leak allegedly from Intel, after what they said about iPadOS at WWDC I suspect that their plan is to groom the iPad to gradually replace Macs from the bottom up.

That actually makes more sense to "grow up" the iPad vs. converting Macs to Ax processors.
 
That actually makes more sense to "grow up" the iPad vs. converting Macs to Ax processors.
On the other hand: Apple got the toolkits for both ARM and x86 anyways. I'd bet they got a OS X version for ARM running somewhere. They got the toolkit, they got the hardware, why not fool around and see how it goes?

For those who don't even know what virtualisation is and do not care about the processor architecture anyways, who want a silent computer (no pad), mobile, yet halfway capable, featuring an all day battery life, a Macbook (Air?) variant with an A12X might be a pretty sweet option. In particular since the Intel variants are get their beating for constantly throttling
 
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