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But it is, when you consider, as I keep pointing out, over and over, and others keep ignoring, they require two separate chipsets. PC manufactures are not including TB chips, TB devices won't work with PC's.
i know next to nothing about individual computer manufacturers or especially their individual models of computers but when i do a quick search/first hits (example - searching 'dell computer')... it appears TB devices do work with PCs.
??

maybe i just happened to click on items which have TB3 support and all others don't but if that's the case, i should probably be spending my sunday gambling instead of macrumors_ing ;)

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/productdetails/xps-15-9560-laptop
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstations/z1-g3.html
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/ThunderboltEX-3/
http://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/laptop...inkPad-X1-Carbon-5th-Generation/p/22TP2TXX15G
 
i know next to nothing about individual computer manufacturers or especially their individual models of computers but when i do a quick search/first hits (example - searching 'dell computer')... it appears TB devices do work with PCs.
??

maybe i just happened to click on items which have TB3 support and all others don't but if that's the case, i should probably be spending my sunday gambling instead of macrumors_ing ;)

http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/productdetails/xps-15-9560-laptop
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstations/z1-g3.html
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/ThunderboltEX-3/
http://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/laptop...inkPad-X1-Carbon-5th-Generation/p/22TP2TXX15G

  1. Compatible with ASUS motherboards: Connect the card to the onboard Thunderbolt header with the supplied system-link cable
Now go to newegg and find the ASUS motherboards that have a Thunderbolt header.

I never said there weren't PC products including TB, I said most of them didn't. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but you seem to be going out of your way to prove I'm wrong, while completely ignoring most of the points I make. It's a rather annoying habit around here.
 
  1. Compatible with ASUS motherboards: Connect the card to the onboard Thunderbolt header with the supplied system-link cable
Now go to newegg and find the ASUS motherboards that have a Thunderbolt header.

I never said there weren't PC products including TB, I said most of them didn't. I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but you seem to be going out of your way to prove I'm wrong, while completely ignoring most of the points I make. It's a rather annoying habit around here.
heh, think what you want i suppose.

what started all of this is when you said

"Thunderbolt is yet another in a long line of interfaces backed by Apple, that has failed"

and i don't see it as having failed. in fact, i see it as currently advancing.

either way though, i have no horse in the race other than display connectivity..
everything else, i do wirelessly as that's what i find to be best (for me)
 
maybe i just happened to click on items which have TB3 support and all others don't

Seems like TB3 is getting pretty well adopted in mid-range and high-end laptops in the PC world. I think that the arguments against TB are holdovers from the days of TB1 and TB2. Looks like the costs to add TB3 are much cheaper now.
 
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Seems like TB3 is getting pretty well adopted in mid-range and high-end laptops in the PC world. I think that the arguments against TB are holdovers from the days of TB1 and TB2. Looks like the costs to add TB3 are much cheaper now.
on the subject of TB3, not sure if people saw this recently on MR mac blog:

some new external GPU, SSD, PCIe expansion, & RAID enclosures..
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/20/owc-thunderbolt-3-ssd-gpu-raid/

apparently these items are being shown this weekend so maybe we'll have some better news in the following days.

(just in case anyone is interested)
 
But it is, when you consider, as I keep pointing out, over and over, and others keep ignoring, they require two separate chipsets. PC manufactures are not including TB chips, TB devices won't work with PC's.

It keeps getting ignored because what does TB requiring a separate chip set have to do with anything? WiFi/Bluetooth require extra chips. SSD controller - more chips. Functionality requires chips.

It's economies of scale, I don't want to build a product, and limit the users I can sell it too, that just doesn't make sense. Most of the world will use USB-C devices.

I'm talking about the overall limitations of TB, it is not going to replace PCIE expansion cards, or internal expansion cards in general. It is not going to replace USB-C, it is not going to replace MXM. It's not going to replace Display Port. It's not going to replace internal drive storage.

It's a niche market.

Apple banked on TB being able to use TB as a replacement for most of these things with the nMP, and they have admitted it was a mistake, it's time for apologist to see the light. You can't appeal to a niche market with a product like the nMP, when you're the most profitable company in the history of the world, and expect you are going to have success with that product.
Apple's selling 20 million Macs a year, all with TB. They've probably sold in the neighborhood of 100 million Macs with TB. Seems like a decent sized market to sell niche products to.

MacOS & TB aren't currently ready for prime-time for eGPU, and may not ever be (though I don't have much trouble imagining ten years from now an eGPU the size of an iPhone via TB5). GPUs make up about 95% of the market for PCIe expansion cards (outside of the server market). So I'd agree that right now TB doesn't serve GPU well. Nearly everything else, TB3 & USB does just fine.

When you say stuff like "It's not going to replace Display Port", that's what I mean by you don't seem to understand the tech. TB3 does support DP - just get a USB-C to DP cable, for like $20. That's the genius of TB3 - it can take the place of a lot of different port standards.

You and others love to bring up "apologists"... who are these apologists you speak of? Me? That's a laugh. I think Apple has largely lost its way, and there are tons of things I would blast them for. But what I do understand, even if I don't always agree, is the way Apple approaches products, and it's kind of easy to get the gist because they have talked consistently about it for the last 30 years.

They've had good managers and bad managers, and made great products and not so great products (and some true stinkers, and no, the nMP doesn't even come close), but their basic product philosophy has never significantly changed. Apple is an alternative to the PC/Windows/Android world, and Apple doesn't just offer alternative products - their entire approach is an alternative to the PC/Windows/Android world. Again, I don't understand why people keep thinking Apple is something they are not.
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No, I'm saying TB is a failed interface, and it will die off, in time, and Apple made a mistake thinking people wanted to use it as the only real means of upgrading the nMP.
So, this all just boils down to another rant about the lack of PCIe slots. Yeah, been there, done that.
 
Apple's selling 20 million Macs a year, all with TB. They've probably sold in the neighborhood of 100 million Macs with TB. Seems like a decent sized market to sell niche products to.

A mixture of Thunderbolt 1/2/3, do you think companies are going to continue to build Thunderbolt 1/2 products, now that we have TB 3?

When you say stuff like "It's not going to replace Display Port", that's what I mean by you don't seem to understand the tech. TB3 does support DP - just get a USB-C to DP cable, for like $20. That's the genius of TB3 - it can take the place of a lot of different port standards.

As I said TB 3 doesn't support Displayport 1.4, so what do you think Apple will do with the mPM, I'm willing to place a small wager that the mPM will include Displayport 1.4 directly from the video card.

They've had good managers and bad managers, and made great products and not so great products (and some true stinkers, and no, the nMP doesn't even come close), but their basic product philosophy has never significantly changed. Apple is an alternative to the PC/Windows/Android world, and Apple doesn't just offer alternative products - their entire approach is an alternative to the PC/Windows/Android world. Again, I don't understand why people keep thinking Apple is something they are not.

Apple has changed, and their market has changed. They are no longer a niche market, they are the most profitable company in the history of the world. They should be building products that appeal to the most people, not cutting their own throat by releasing products like the nMP, that not only don't sell better than the cMP it replaced, but actually cause mass defections of repeat customers away from the brand.

The point is to grow market share and profits, not to it back and say," Well, we'll never be as big as the PC market, so let's just stop trying to build things people seem to want to buy, and ass rape our repeat customers until they defect."

When Apple lost it's way before, they lost a lot of money, and market share. That's the business world, you can't offer bad products and gain market share, nor can you just rest on your laurels and think your market share will climb and profits will go up. Profits will go down, if they do not go up, you grow or you decline.

This is not a condemnation of TB, it's a condemnation of Apple choosing it to be the only real means of upgrading their flagship Mac.
 
Apple has changed, and their market has changed. They are no longer a niche market, they are the most profitable company in the history of the world. They should be building products that appeal to the most people, not cutting their own throat by releasing products like the nMP, that not only don't sell better than the cMP it replaced, but actually cause mass defections of repeat customers away from the brand.

The point is to grow market share and profits, not to it back and say," Well, we'll never be as big as the PC market, so let's just stop trying to build things people seem to want to buy, and ass rape our repeat customers until they defect."
What you're basically saying is Apple should be like Dell and HP, since that's what Dell and HP essentially do. How's that working out for HP and Dell? No need to look it up. HP's stock price is at 1/2 of what it was even just a few years ago. Dell was taken private.

I'm going to end my part in this discussion here, because this is just shaping up to be the same diatribes I've seen a hundred times over the last few years here (and in one form or another since the day the Mac was introduced).
 
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What you're basically saying is Apple should be like Dell and HP, since that's what Dell and HP essentially do. How's that working out for HP and Dell? No need to look it up. HP's stock price is at 1/2 of what it was even just a few years ago. Dell was taken private.

Putting words in my mouth...............

How much of Apple's profits are derived from the iPhone/iPad?

Apple still makes some very good, or great Mac's, but doing things like soldering ram to the logic board, as if it were 1995 all over again. The personal computer market is not the iDevice market, people don't pay thousands of dollars for their Computers, and how them in a drawer when the new model comes out next year.

Apple is making an effort to try and shift that to the PC market, and it's not going to work, unless Apple can offer them so cheap that people won't care.
 
is this not accurate?

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/artic...-1-4-standard-support-8k-displays-work-usb-c/

(not saying 'look, you're wrong'.. seriously just asking the question posed at the beginning of the post)

I'm not real clear on how that works, but it's a standard, but still must be adopted by device manufactures. I don't think, as it stands, that USB-C can support 8k displays. Why would we be searching for other ports, hasn't Displayport won out?

Why reinvent the wheel, GPU add in cards, and even most iGPU's use DisplayPort, sure a lot still have HDMI and or DVI for compatibility. That's the versatility of GPU's, TB 3 has been released, it doesn't support Displayport 1.4 and it never will. We'll have to wait for TB 4 or TB 3.x.

Maybe, by the time the mPM is built, they will have TB 4 or 5 or 10.

Anyway, stop moving the goalpost, USB-C is not Thunderbolt, now is it.

Do you want the mPM to rout it's display output through TB?

Because if you do, it will be at the expense of that GPU using a standard PCIE slot for upgradability.
 
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Anyway, stop moving the goalpost, USB-C is not Thunderbolt, now is it.

i've tried saying it twice now that we might be talking about or concerned with two different things.. because from my POV as a user, yes, USB-C and Thunderbolt are the same thing.

because:

Why reinvent the wheel,

it's not about reinventing the wheel.. rather perfecting it or at least simplifying it.

for example, look at 'dongle hell' or whatever the latest trend is regarding knocking iphone/mbp..
what would you rather have as a solution:

• computers to have every port imaginable? (less dongle hell... specific wire for various externals..)
• computers have one style port and everything works with it? (no dongle hell.. single wire works with everything)

imo, the second choice is far better.. but i'm reading you as thinking the first option is better?
 
i've tried saying it twice now that we might be talking about or concerned with two different things.. because from my POV as a user, yes, USB-C and Thunderbolt are the same thing.

because:



it's not about reinventing the wheel.. rather perfecting it or at least simplifying it.

for example, look at 'dongle hell' or whatever the latest trend is regarding knocking iphone/mbp..
what would you rather have as a solution:

• computers to have every port imaginable? (less dongle hell... specific wire for various externals..)
• computers have one style port and everything works with it? (no dongle hell.. single wire works with everything)

imo, the second choice is far better.. but i'm reading you as thinking the first option is better?
Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C share the same port, they are not the same thing, full bandwidth TB requires active cabling, and a Thunderbolt chip in the device and the computer.

Firewire never really died, Apple still supports it via Thunderbolt, and one of those damnable adapters, but, for the most part, manufacturers stopped making devices for Firewire.

It's not about what the better tech is, it's about how much it's adopted.
 
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What you're basically saying is Apple should be like Dell and HP, since that's what Dell and HP essentially do. How's that working out for HP and Dell? No need to look it up. HP's stock price is at 1/2 of what it was even just a few years ago. Dell was taken private.
Hello?

You do realize that HP split into two companies, so if you had one HP share you now have a share in the PC company and the enterprise company.

A tragically ignorant comment.
 
Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C share the same port,

i don't think USB-C and TB3 share the same port.
USB-C is the port.

besides Thunderbolt, USB-C is also capable of transmitting power, various other data protocols such as USB3.1, audio, various video signals.. etc.

right? or am i misunderstanding what USB-C is?
 
i don't think USB-C and TB3 share the same port.
USB-C is the port.

besides Thunderbolt, USB-C is also capable of transmitting power, various other data protocols such as USB3.1, audio, various video signals.. etc.

right? or am i misunderstanding what USB-C is?
The Thunderbolt chip is not necessary on the logic board board for USB-C to function.

We can argue the point until TB dies it's slow death.
 
The Thunderbolt chip is not necessary on the logic board board for USB-C to function.
and what?

USB-C could be set up to only carry audio.
or just used to plug into the wall..
it can have thunderbolt or it can't..
it can connect to a display or it can't.

-----
let me ask you this:
what is USB-C?



.
 
1. The top end 12 Core 24 thread nMP offered Intel's top end Xeon E5-2697v2 processor. Intel EOLed the socket used, and never offered a faster version that would be pin compatible with the nMP. Leaving no room for Apple to spec bump the CPU.
This is still Apple's failure - no way to bring Intel into the fault chain.

It was known at the time (2013) that the E5 v3 would use a different socket, and any changes to the v2 lineup were unlikely (outside of some GHz improvements could happen through binning).

Note this story http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2013/06/14/intel-roadmap-leak/1 from the same week that the MP6,1 was previewed at MacWorld SF 2013.
 
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The nMP wan't a bad machine 3 1/2 years ago.

Apple made some mistakes, correct me is I'm wrong on any of this:

1. The top end 12 Core 24 thread nMP offered Intel's top end Xeon E5-2697v2 processor. Intel EOLed the socket used, and never offered a faster version that would be pin compatible with the nMP. Leaving no room for Apple to spec bump the CPU.

2. Apple never spec bumped the FirerPro D700.

3. Apple used a non standard SSD interface rather than M.2, and didn't even offer a second SSD slot, or even room, or internal interface for a traditional HD.

4. Thunderbolt is yet another in a long line of interfaces backed by Apple, that has failed( ADC, SCSI, ADP, ADC, FW ) I mean it's hard to find a PC Motherboard that even supports TB, and Apple added more ports, than they had PCIE lanes to support. Meaning they had to share bandwidth.

4.5 Apple seriously miscalculated people's willingness to add things to an otherwise beautiful and quite machine via expensive, loud, and cluttering external TB solutions.

Apple has lots of money, they could have EOLed the nMP years ago. I'm sure they may have taken some loss on what they spent on R&D and manufacturing lead up, but when you make these kind of mistakes, it's not better to compound them by waiting 3 1/2 years to admit it, and another 1-2 years after that to correct it.

1. Agree

2. This is the most important issue. These should have been upgradeable - even as an Genius Bar upgrade. The GPUs are the thing that slow the system down the most - even the CPU is much less of an issue... and I don't understand why the "Thermal limit" was an issue - Newer GPUs are progressively more efficient.

3. https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ssd/owc/mac-pro/2013

4. SCSI and FW are failures?!?! You are nuts' SCSI was Massive and Firewire WAS the only interface for Most video Cameras in the Day and used by everyone in the Video industry.

Thunderbolt is used by most Visual effects companies I know and studios where Transfer speeds are important - USB 3.1 does not cut it.

5. Kind of agree - but also most companies don't upgrade anything - Most workstations are stock bar the Hard disks... and that's why a centralised storage facility is a much better idea. It's home and small pro users that have a an issue with this setup.

People keep saying they'd could have EOL'd the Mac Pro... what do you think they design the next iPhone and iMac on? They need a workstation level machine in house and it helps drive the ecosystem.

I am pretty sure the next Mac will be expandable and stackable. A base unit like we have now and power users can buy a GPU unit (Full length GPU), SSD units for 4/8, PCI unit

I suppose all the size / shape would be governed by the size of the GPU as it's biggest standard part. They can design their MOBO and Thermal solution around that.
 
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SCSI "failed"? yeah, I don't think so. SCSI penetration in the unix desktop and departmental server hardware world was 100% for at least a couple decades. Its time is mostly over, but that's hardly "failing".
 
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