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If you had to choose: Thunderbolt Vs Upgradeable GPU + PCIe slots?
- Thread starter slughead
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well whatayouknow..
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/08/2...or-3d-gesture-control-on-touchscreen-devices/
things are gonna get real sweet if they can get this implemented properly within the next few years.
Kind of hard to be pixel accurate with my big fingers
And using a stylus would kind of defeat the use case for this product.
my take isn't that i hate them.. i want to have a use for an ipad (don't own one- never have) but the gestures as of now aren't capable enough.. so instead, i have to use a $2500 laptop in places where such an expensive and relatively fragile item shouldn't be used.. i could break 5 ipads for the price of 1 mbp..
(regarding gestures though-- the trackpads are great and i use them all the time.. 2 of the apps i use are utilizing the trackpads for things like orbiting/navigation of models, zooming, panning, as well as launching commands.. better than a mouse for a lot of things.. but they're limited in how much we can do with them right now)
Kind of hard to be pixel accurate with my big fingers
And using a stylus would kind of defeat the use case for this product.
ha.. those damn fat fingers
inference engines can handle the accuracy side of things.. i'm sure the first (and second & 3rd) iteration of 3D gestures will be relatively weak and will be more 'cool/neato' as opposed to usable/practical for intensive modeling..
i just think it's a move in the right direction towards the ability to define/create/grab virtual shapes then stretch/morph/scale them.. like picking up an ibeam then bending it or lengthening it etc..
dunno, it's going to take thousands of people and multi thousands of tossed out ideas until it's really workable but hopefully by 2020 or so (wishful thinking)
I would as well. I expect the bandwidth requirements of the Titan, GTX780, GTX690 are a lot more than the GTX680 and the Radeons.
I also expect that in a few years time, when Tessalator buys a brand new GTX 980 (or whatever they have out then) and stuffs it into a TB->PCIe chassis to "upgrade" his iTube, that the bandwidth bottleneck will be a lot more than with the current generation of cards.
"Yeah, go next door to Best Buy and pick up nearly any NVidia card, they work in 10.8.3... They don't sell much thunderbolt stuff there though..."
PCIe unless everything was magically made for TB at the same price. As cool as ThunderBolt could be, it's just not practical yet. PCIe is cheap cheap cheap! Mass production.
maybe it's a matter of perspective but to me at least, thunderbolt is replacing fw800 and dvi (and in some instances usb).. and will do a better job than its predecessors + eliminates the need for different types of cables/ports because tb can handle data and video
(to me) it's not replacing pci slots.. those things are old school & tinkerish and could of basically been ditched without adding thunderbolt to the mac pro.. in the same way they ditched the express card slots on the macbooks..
i never used them (neither did 90% of users according to p.schiller ).. i used firewire instead
You're right, PCIe upgrading is "old school". Over time Macs have dropped slots, sockets, bays, and along with those, the ability to upgrade almost everything. Even system memory is being soldered in these days, so if you buy certain Macs with 4 or 8 GB you are perpetually stuck with it.
Three years in, I'm able to upgrade my old school PCIe MP5,1 to USB 3.0 and a GTX 680... a video card that is two generations newer, vastly faster, and much less expensive than the Apple 5870 offering. I'm probably going to upgrade the miniPCIe WiFi card to 802.11ac, too.
Three years in with the new MP I don't see any of that happening. New GPU? Probably not, or possibly an official Apple solution that is old, expensive, and slow. USB 3.1? No way, or maybe a $150 Thunderbolt to USB 3.1 adapter. 802.11ad? I'm not seeing it.
I *like* old school.
Go to the Mac Pro forum, click on "Views" to sort threads by most views (or just click here). It is absolutely astonishing how many of the very most popular threads are about upgrading. CPUs, GPUs, USB 3.0, Airport cards, SSDs. "New school" is throwing all that richness and diversity away.
Hey, if you never needed or cared to do this stuff, the new Mac Pro will be great for you; I get that. For the people doing the literally millions of page views on those upgrade threads, well it sucks for us.
Three years in, I'm able to upgrade my old school PCIe MP5,1 to USB 3.0 and a GTX 680... a video card that is two generations newer, vastly faster, and much less expensive than the Apple 5870 offering. I'm probably going to upgrade the miniPCIe WiFi card to 802.11ac, too.
Three years in with the new MP I don't see any of that happening. New GPU? Probably not, or possibly an official Apple solution that is old, expensive, and slow. USB 3.1? No way, or maybe a $150 Thunderbolt to USB 3.1 adapter. 802.11ad? I'm not seeing it.
I *like* old school.
Go to the Mac Pro forum, click on "Views" to sort threads by most views (or just click here). It is absolutely astonishing how many of the very most popular threads are about upgrading. CPUs, GPUs, USB 3.0, Airport cards, SSDs. "New school" is throwing all that richness and diversity away.
Hey, if you never needed or cared to do this stuff, the new Mac Pro will be great for you; I get that. For the people doing the literally millions of page views on those upgrade threads, well it sucks for us.
sucks how? you're talking as if the new mac will not be able to be upgraded as well as ruling out possibilities of legit expansion via thunderbolt..
maybe you know something the rest of us don't?
you're claiming old school is good but the reasonings are weak at best and certainly not coming from a place which is arguable.
(unless the argument is:
me: i think the new mac will be upgradeable
you: i think the new mac won't be upgradeable
me: will
you: won't
etc
etc)
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ok
#
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i'm sorry but when i click on that link and then view some of the subsequent ones, i get a vibe of the (current) mac pro isn't very friendly regarding expansion/upgrading so let's discuss some hacks and workarounds.
you're not seeing that?
This thread is just amazing.
I honestly can't believe you guys are still bickering over this crap, when what you should be making noise about is how Apple is behaving. Their actions are inexcusable for the professional market. You do not tie people to your hardware and software and pull the rug up out from underneath everyone just because you can, in the name of fashion or profit or both.
None of this would be a problem if we had choice. That is what you should all be angry about. The fact that you have no choice with Apple anymore. It's their way or the high way. That is ******** and frankly I'm tired of being told what I'm going to buy and how I'm going to use my computer, both by Apple and the majority of you Thunderbolt defenders.
If they wanted to, they could have updated the old Mac Pro and released it with newer processors alongside the Mac Pro Mini. But they didn't, because they know everyone will blanch over the new machine IF THEY HAVE A CHOICE. So their solution was to REMOVE YOUR CHOICE, plain and simple, therefore guaranteeing the machine will be a hit sale wise because YOU HAVE NO MORE CHOICE.
But whatever, by all means continue arguing over this TB and PCI-e crap. TB and PCI-e are not the problem. Apple's way of thinking and their behaviour is. I don't know why you guys continue to put up with this ****, it's unbelievable. None of you would have a leg to stand on if we had the option between either interface, because then everyone could just use what they want or need. It's 20-****ing-13 and I can't believe that some company as big as Apple can't offer a ****ing choice anymore. That is beyond pathetic.
-SC
I honestly can't believe you guys are still bickering over this crap, when what you should be making noise about is how Apple is behaving. Their actions are inexcusable for the professional market. You do not tie people to your hardware and software and pull the rug up out from underneath everyone just because you can, in the name of fashion or profit or both.
None of this would be a problem if we had choice. That is what you should all be angry about. The fact that you have no choice with Apple anymore. It's their way or the high way. That is ******** and frankly I'm tired of being told what I'm going to buy and how I'm going to use my computer, both by Apple and the majority of you Thunderbolt defenders.
If they wanted to, they could have updated the old Mac Pro and released it with newer processors alongside the Mac Pro Mini. But they didn't, because they know everyone will blanch over the new machine IF THEY HAVE A CHOICE. So their solution was to REMOVE YOUR CHOICE, plain and simple, therefore guaranteeing the machine will be a hit sale wise because YOU HAVE NO MORE CHOICE.
But whatever, by all means continue arguing over this TB and PCI-e crap. TB and PCI-e are not the problem. Apple's way of thinking and their behaviour is. I don't know why you guys continue to put up with this ****, it's unbelievable. None of you would have a leg to stand on if we had the option between either interface, because then everyone could just use what they want or need. It's 20-****ing-13 and I can't believe that some company as big as Apple can't offer a ****ing choice anymore. That is beyond pathetic.
-SC
+1
I hope you're not wearing something that stains.
It's holy HELL getting Kool Aid out and I see a veritable gusher of it heading your way.
The apologists are imbued with a unique form of intellectual dishonesty, obvious truths don't concern them.
The fact that you can now install a 100% functional GPU in a 2008-2012 MP that will slaughter any of the listed nMP GPUs BEFORE IT EVEN COMES OUT is another piece of evidence.
New PCIE SSDs will offer faster storage to MP owners than that available in nMP.
We will probably soon have the ability to upgrade out Wireless to a faster (or at least equal) standard.
Railroad the customer at all costs is the new mantra.
They have become the exact people they derided in their "1984" commercial.
"Think Different" has become "Think like a Shareholder"
+2 As much as I Love the workflow and gui of Mac OS the ethos of Apple and the direction they take the company is much to be desired. All about the Bottom line$
for real-- can you answer that question?
why don't you choose another brand instead of apple?
are they forcing you to buy their crap?
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as opposed to some other corporation? name one- please.
don't kid yourself
why don't you choose another brand instead of apple?
are they forcing you to buy their crap?
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as opposed to some other corporation? name one- please.
don't kid yourself
Citation needed.
Please name one other system that boots Mac OS X natively and doesn't require third party or hacked kernel extensions that may or may not break with each successive OS update.
My primary means of income happens to be via my day job as a freelance iOS developer. I have been extremely lucky and continue to make boatloads of cash off my iOS applications, especially in contrast to other mobile platforms (Android and Blackberry).
I've invested tens of thousands of dollars into high-end Macintosh equipment and all the wonderful support equipment I use every single day (Poly AT MIDI keyboard, Wacom Cintiq, my Eizo monitor, a bunch of audio gear and a whole collection of iOS devices). My Mac Pro is loaded to the gills with all kinds of hardware, and even more sitting in an external Magma chassis (over the second PCI-e 16x link in my tower, so no, Thunderbolt will not suffice).
So really, I have no choice. If I want to continue using the software I've bought OS X licenses for, if I want to continue using the OS X specific hardware I've bought (most notably, my Apogee Symphony I/O)... I have to keep a Macintosh around somewhere, and that will likely have to remain my primary workstation since I use iCloud extensively for my mail and device synchronization.
I swear, folks who say "LOL, just switch platforms, chill dude, it's no big deal" are clearly not Apple oriented "professionals". Some of us use our computers to make money, rather then surfing Youtube and posting on Facebook.
-SC
Well we are now on Thunderbolt 2. I know that Thunderbolt came and went without anything even remotely comparable to the upgrades available on PCIe. I know that the video cards are using proprietary connectors. I know that the Wi-Fi appears to be soldered in. I know that there are no drive bays available. So I know that, no matter what, the upgrade options are drastically reduced.
Perhaps everything will still be upgradeable, albeit externally. Perhaps Apple will sell video cards with the special connector at reasonable prices and keep them up to date. It all sounds ludicrous to me, but maybe that's what will magically happen.
I know for sure that I don't buy technology based on future promise, because that's almost always a losing game. But you're right, I don't know for sure what the future will bring for Thunderbolt.
My argument is not that the MP is not upgradeable, it's that "new school" for the entire MAC lineup, including the MP, is the gradual removal of upgrade options and features. This is indisputable. I NEVER ruled out all possibilities of upgrades, and you are putting those words in my mouth.
Of course I am seeing that. I am seeing a rich discussion of hacks and workarounds, many of which are enabled BECAUSE OF PCIE. And others which are drop-in PCIe solutions that just work. MAYBE this will be possible over Thunderbolt. MAYBE it won't be absurdly expensive. MAYBE it won't be a rat's nest of data and power cables. MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE.
Apple is pushing the balance of form and function way towards form over function. This makes some people happy and some people upset.
What I don't understand is that the people who like the new MP seem to think that those of us who are upset should also like it, or that we should shut up and move on. We've lost and there's obviously nothing we can do about it but hope for the best, but this is a forum for discussion, so we discuss.
i guess that's where the entire discussion breaks down.. because honestly, i see it differently.. from my point of view, it seems people that like the new mac are giving decent reasonings as to why they like it etc but are immediately put on the defensive via comments such as "anyone that likes the new mac is not a pro and will be wasting lots of money in order to post on facebook... apologist/shill/koolaid drinker.. intellectual dishonesty.. and on and on and on"
i mean, what type of crap is that? it definitely does not create an atmosphere in which any sort of meaningful discussion/argument can occur in.. all arguments don't need to be angry ones.. it doesn't take a genius to figure out which side of these discussions the past couple of months are doing the attacking.. i get it, you're (not you in particular) upset that the new mac wasn't developed in the way you'd prefer.. but is that really a good reason to take it out on people that prefer the new design over the old?
Or: maybe not.
goMac and others argue that 1) we don't have a rich TB market because there are no professional TB machines and 2) the nMP will create the necessary demand for a mature TB market. Accepting number 1 means that the only way number 2 could happen is if the nMP is actually successful, and we're talking pretty darn successful to basically be on par with the market for PCIe devices (namely: the entire PC desktop world).
What if the fans are wrong and *gasp* it isn't? All this theorizing about the possibilities of 4+ bay thunderbolt SATA enclosures on the cheap or Fiberchannel or TB2 SAS is predicated on the projected costs of products that may not even be on the drawing board yet (if they ever will be).
It's fair to say that even if the nMP is successful, it will stand nearly if not entirely alone as a pro machine with TB 2 for foreseeable future. How many companies are going to create products for such a market?
The reason we get to tinker with all these awesome and cheap PCIE cards is because they were originally built for PCs! What happens when we basically don't have that anymore?
For those really angry with the current Mac Pro...
1. If it's challenging for you to migrate now to the new Mac Pro due to missing or expensive peripherals, wait. No one is forcing you to sell your current machine and upgrade to the new Mac Pro on launch day. Maybe the situation will improve, maybe it won't, you'll just have to wait and see.
2. You have to acknowledge that like many times in the past, Apple doesn't care what you think. They are not listening to you. They know there will be some resistance to change and just like the past, it will be ignored. So those of you vocally opposed to this machine, what is your ambition with all your anger and negativity? Worst case you're having a negative influence on other Mac Pro members as well as lurkers from the iMac or Mac Mini forum who are considering this new machine. Best case, you're wasting bandwidth.
3. The best thing that could happen for most people here, including the opposed, is if this new Mac Pro is wildly successful, creating more demand for TB peripherals that creates choice and economies of scale to reduce prices. If it fails, it should be obvious to most that this will be the last powerhouse computer from Apple. So rather than bitch about it, why not use your influence in a positive way to encourage people to consider this machine based on it's positive merits, so it can achieve the level of success needed to make your own transition less painful.
4. If it's just never going to be the kind of machine for you due to it's inability to upgrade GPUs every year, then you need to accept it, and consider your alternatives... perpetually upgrading an existing Mac Pro, going the Hackintosh route, or moving to Windows. No amount of bitching or badgering other members in support of this new Mac Pro is going to bring back the old one. Period.
In short, if you're angry with this new Mac Pro, do something productive to improve your situation instead of just bitching about it.
Thanks for the tips, but I think I'll keep spreading the truth.
"Rolling over and taking it" doesn't sound like good advice to me.
The only way Apple will listen is if these things sit on the shelves. I don't think they just want to be an iToys company. Voting with your wallet is the best way to get them to listen.
If I convince a few other people to do the same, more votes.
It is already possible to put better GPUs in a 2008-2012 MP then anything Apple is offering for nMP. Will be interesting to see how many more parts of machine will be "stuck in time" like an iMac and can be bettered by PCIE peripherals in a 2008-12 BEFORE the can even appears.
"Accept it and tell others to do the same" sounds like what the alien invaders tell the helpless denizens of earth on a Sci Fi movie.
And while you're here in this thread, have a look at those colorful bars at the top.
You mean like the following? 5 hours after you posted I get the perfect example:
So I should shut up and move on. Discussing the merits of new vs old hardware is "just bitching".
And here I thought this was a discussion board.
yeah, i don't know.. i guess all i should be doing is trying to me/myself/&I not fight anybody over this..
i do get something else out of what virtualrain said as opposed to 'shut up if you don't like it and quit whining' (or whatever)
i think it's important to realize that yes, apple is taking thunderbolt very seriously and if you plan on buying any future computer from them, be prepared to be, at the very least, a thunderbolt port owner.. they can only take it so far on their own and the rest is going to depend on support from their users.. if nobody supports it then it will die or lay stagnant..
a scenario that i highly doubt will happen is this: boycott thunderbolt and/or apple products expecting them to bring back pci slots to the mac pro.. i nearly 100% believe they will kill off the mac pro line before they would consider bringing the slots back.. mvd's crusade to 'spread the truth' and try to keep these things sitting on the shelves is worthless.. for one, i honestly don't think they'll sit on shelves and will probably sell a lot better than the current versions but that guess is somewhat irrelevant to what i'm saying.. if mvc (and the like) was actually successful at convincing the majority of people to not buy the product, the product will die.. they'd succeed at getting rid of the can but also shoot themselves in the foot by getting rid of the mac pro entirely.
really though.. none of this matters from where i'm sitting.. it's going to sell just fine and apple will continue to develop it further.. thunderbolt will go up to at least TB3(or whatever).. if it gets the desired support from the users then we'll see it improve beyond that.. and i'm willing to bet that after a year or two of the new mac, we'll start to see a lot more non-apple manufacturers integrating it in their systems.. and dare i say even the most anti-TB voices out there will eventually be using it themselves.
