I'm done with Apple...

[CaptainCaveMann]

You hit the nail on the head there. If you did spend $2K on a Dell laptop you would actually get an engineer on-site, it'd be insured for accidental damage and it wouldn't be away for a week unless it was something very serious.

This is what makes me hesitant about buying Apple gear nowadays and what makes me take a crack at OSX86 every now and again (no it doesn't work properly, alas).

Lovely OS, pretty but less-than-it-should-be hardware, support service - or the lack of - that defies belief (from this 'used to corporate HP/Dell support' person).

I was reading a post elsewhere where someone was saying that they were impressed that their iMac got turned around in a week. Dell had a misbehaving memory fan on one of the Precisions fixed the next day, on-site. *That* is support I expect for paying Applecare prices, and while I don't mind paying the Apple premium for hardware, despite the superior design I do expect the stuff to be built a whole lot better than it is. My MBP deformed, for Christ's sake.

Which makes me a fool for wanting a Mac Pro, but damn - I really want a good excuse to buy one

Either way, you've just got to either follow through with pressing for your defective machine to be replaced or refunded, depending on how much you love OS X. The customer service department can be reasoned with, although I had to turn to a lawyer for quick results.

Remember when 15 inch tibooks cost 3000 new?

 

[kylepro88]

One misconception I see here is you guys assume that Apple is as big of a company as Dell and thats simply not the case. I have one Apple Store within a couple 100 mile radius or more and your expecting an on-site specialist? Dream on people I mean give the problem some reality.

-Kyle

 

[lmalave]

Because a lot of Mac users frequently just give Apple the benefit of the doubt. Everybody's personal experiences should matter to Apple. I'm sure Bang and Olufsen view each and every customer as important. If Apple want to be the premium brand they market themselves as, they need to do the same.

I don't agree with your reasoning that Mac users *on average* just "give the benefit of the doubt". Again, the people doing the surveys aren't stupid. They *do* care about the specifics and ask the appropriate questions. Also, a disproportionate number of recent Mac purchasers (which are the ones being surveyed), are *new* to the Mac. Which means they would give Apple *less* benefit of the doubt, not more. Do you really think someone that bought their first Mac ever, and then find that their new Mac is defective, is going to give Apple the benefit of the doubt?

As to Apple caring about personal experiences, I think they *do*. Why else would they invest so much money and effort in something like the Genius Bar? Give them credit for trying out new ideas. And ideas that seem to be working well *on average*, based on surveys.

No product, ever, is going to be defect free. There will *always* be people with negative stories to tell about a product, or about the customer service.

 

[lmalave]

The odds of getting a crappy machine out of the box seem inordinately high.

There are surveys/studies done on this too. Apple has the lowest defect rates in the entire computer industry, period. You can't go by personal anecdotes. For every person with a story about a defective Mac, there are even *more* stories about defective Dells, HPs, Sonys, etc. And that's not just a guess, that's a *fact*, as proven by surveys.

People, let's start trusting the facts, here, ok? The entire world thought for thousands of years that heavy objects fell faster than lighter ones, because it seemed common sense (and because Aristotle said so). But then Galileo showed through *experiment* that objects fall at the same rate. Facts, people. Science. Math. Statistics.

 

[jkelling]

I'll second that. If you did a bit of research, both problems are issues with some macbooks. You should not have purchased it had you thought the problems would happen to you

Also, if this is enough to make you stop using macs, you probably shouldn't have switched in the first place.

I'm really tired of fanboys and apple apologists. Do research. Don't blame apple, blame the customer. Don't use your computer that way.

Yes, I like apple products, and have several of them. But honestly, Apple has a lousy warranty, and Apple Care is highly overpriced for the MBP. And you are pretty much FORCED to buy AppleCare because these MPBs have had so many problems, you have to buy it for insurance to make sure you have your computer for more than a year. Battery recalls, paint problems, over heating, random shutdowns, random reboots - the quality just isn't there in the MBP, and I'm speaking from experience since I own one.

And appleCare is another story. I took my computer in for repair (several times now). The computer is in pristine condition and not a scratch on it. The technician was shaking it around - and I know what for - to see if he heard anything loose inside - so again, they could blame the customer and say that I had done something to it so they wouldn't have to fix it under warranty. The customer service from the AppleCare/Genius Bar technicians is apalling. Yes, they are nice and friendly, but when it comes down to it, they are looking for an excuse to NOT help you.

Oh, and on research. As I said at first, I have had several Macs over the years. When the MBP first came out, I got one in the first week. Dumb me. I guess I shouldn't have expected to be a beta tester for apple. NEVER will I buy a computer again from Apple until other suckers have had them for a while and an overall opinion of the product starts to form. In the past, I could count on Apple to create a great product, and no matter what I bought from them, I knew it would be awesome. Now, we are all starting to find that we have to put apple in the same pile as Dell, HP, etc, and do research to make sure that the product isn't a newly released clunker.

 

[JAT]

The problem is simple. It's a matter of perspective and expectations.

When people buy a Dell, they are told it is cheap, and they see a box. They expect a cheap box. Dell has good service, and they are impressed that a company would bother to be good for a box.

When people buy an Apple, they get an impressive industrial design that is marketed as the coolest, best-working computer around. I dare say "pretty". And they are told it works better and is worth paying a bit more. And they expect a pretty, perfect machine that works all day and tucks them into bed at night. Now, since Apple is not as big as Dell, they can't offer full onsite service. So service is good, but not quite as impressive.

So when the Dell breaks, it's no big deal. They get it fixed and move on. Half the time it's forgotten cause it's just a big, ugly box and is supposed to be like that. Not to mention you get used to the system doing things differently every day, the hardware doing something different (like not turning on) is no big deal. It's just another computer, after all. When the Apple breaks, the world has ended. And for some, it's time to throw it away and bash Apple. "I thought this could never break. And it didn't make my breakfast this morning or let the dog out. You suck, Apple! You suck, other Apple owners! I want a Dell cause Jimmy down the street says it's great."

When the Dell broke, expectations didn't have far to fall. When the Apple broke, expectations dropped from heaven and shattered the poor person's psyche. Poor people, go get a Dell. It hurts less.

 

[Hockeypuck]

When the Apple broke, expectations dropped from heaven and shattered the poor person's psyche. Poor people, go get a Dell. It hurts less.

It might help if Apple were to stop advertising that their computers don't crash or have issues. I'm not trying to bash Apple here, but the average computer user doesn't understand why their Mac isn't perfect, because Apple spent their advertising dollars telling them it was.

 

[JAT]

And appleCare is another story. I took my computer in for repair (several times now). The computer is in pristine condition and not a scratch on it. The technician was shaking it around - and I know what for - to see if he heard anything loose inside - so again, they could blame the customer and say that I had done something to it so they wouldn't have to fix it under warranty. The customer service from the AppleCare/Genius Bar technicians is apalling. Yes, they are nice and friendly, but when it comes down to it, they are looking for an excuse to NOT help you.

To prove my point from above, I'll use this anecdote and a recent one from my office about a Dell laptop. First, I'll agree with you 100% about the treatment of the computer. If I see a Genius toss my laptop around, I'll tackle him and mirror any damages on HIS outer shell. But, moving on...

You had a poor experience and are whining about it on the web. Your expectations have been destroyed, it seems. I take it you have your computer today? And it works? And it was a free, warranty fix?

My IT guy had to have his screen replaced. It went bad after less than a month, wonky colors or something. And when the guy came out, he put in the wrong screen. Dell has 2-3 levels of quality (unlike Apple, who simply supplies a better screen than any of Dell's), my coworker has the top version, the guy put in one of the other levels. It was quite obvious, it actually looked grainy, like a 1940s movie. Did IT man come on the web and cry? No, he shrugged and made the guy come back out a day or 2 later. Now he has the right screen after several phone calls and 2 repair jobs. And lots and lots of eye rolling. By both him and me.

So, you both have stupid repair guys and screw-ups by the company. You both have your computers back and working. ONE of you is crying on the web about how sucky the company is. Who's got the problem, again?

 

[JAT]

It might help if Apple were to stop advertising that their computers don't crash or have issues. I'm not trying to bash Apple here, but the average computer user doesn't understand why their Mac isn't perfect, because Apple spent their advertising dollars telling them it was.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said. Although, I don't happen to see any "average computer users" here. Those are the people rating Apple as the best quality computers and service. Huh.

Everyone claims to be Johnny-on-the-spot computer geeks here. And yet some can't seem to cope. I think I'll go have a good cry for all of them.

 

[Hockeypuck]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said.

Right, I just wanted to add that their ad campaign doesn't help them when something breaks

Good luck with your cry

 

[JAT]

Right, I just wanted to add that their ad campaign doesn't help them when something breaks

Good luck with your cry

Thanks, I feel better now. I hope everyone else does, too. Just want to help out.

Actually, the movie or TV show with that "I'm a Mac" guy playing an idiot is probably going to kill their commercials.

 

[MACDRIVE]

along with the "pitting" of the handrest and peeling up of the topcase while it was there.

Isn't the handrest and topcase the same part?

 

[skunk]

One misconception I see here is you guys assume that Apple is as big of a company as Dell and thats simply not the case. I have one Apple Store within a couple 100 mile radius or more and your expecting an on-site specialist? Dream on people I mean give the problem some reality.

That is a very good point. For Apple routinely to offer this level of cover would be prohibitively expensive. Maybe if they double their market share it will become viable.

 

[Sesshi]

I don't know, but how is this relevant in the grand scheme of things? You want to bring in what percentage of people buy which warranty now???? I really don't know what percentage of Dell consumer buyers buy the 3-year warranty vs. the default 1-year. But what does it matter? Maybe because Dell is trying to market itself as lowest-price, it doesn't push the buyer to buy the extended warranty, whereas Apple, more concerned about its reputation as a premium brand, markets its AppleCare more aggressively. And which consumers are ultimately happier? Apple's. But don't take my word for it - look at *all* the various survey results.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The Dell is marketed as the cheapest so people adjust the prices until they get the cheapest. Ergo, when things go wrong you'll see more complaints against Dell.

One of the points I'm making is that the premium Applecare doesn't deliver a premium service - far from it. I demand value but not necessarily low cost. Very few things I buy from Dell for example is cheap in the consumer scheme of things - I buy Poweredges, Precisions and Latitudes all loaded with service and support. The difference is that service and support is included as standard. And all this falls squarely into the price brackets of Applecare-attached Apple 'Pro' equipment, in fact for the most case for a lot less. A Latitude notebook for example comes with build quality that is slightly superior to Apple combined with product engineering for durability that is definitively superior, better specs, 24/7 telephone support, next-day on-site repair - and in my case, notably lower price. Granted, it is fugly.

It should be noted that Dell outsources it's maintenance to third parties as their equipment is designed to be easy to service on-site - even their notebooks. The 'Dell is bigger' reason doesn't really make sense.

 

[tarjan]

Actually surveys don't always work.

Let me ask you a question, how many surveys do you get? Honestly? Are you a homeowner? College student? Bum on the street?

As a homeowner I get a ton. From GM, Audi, Dell, Porsche, Lenovo, and a million other companies. I rarely fill them out and send them back, mostly because I am lazy but partially because filling one out will just get me MORE junk mail. I am probably more apt to send in a survey about my old boxster than anything else, because it was a great vehicle and I am still a porsche fan. Everything else just seems to work fairly well and just doesn't really resonate in terms of need, so I just ignore the surveys, especially fromdell.

That was until the power supply and one battery died in one of my dell laptops. Then I filled in my survey telling them exactly what I thought.

If you get a survey from apple on the other hand, what is the likelyhood that you will send it in? Is apple "important" enough to you for the ten minutes it will take? Even if nothing is wrong and it gets all positives?

Statistics based on surveys are a pain because you are basing the numbers on an unreliable or biased source. Most of those magic numbers you see have to be fudged due to the non-responders. To be fair, they fudge ALL of the numbers in specific catagories in a similar fashion, but that can skew results if one company gets huge numbers of responders vs another. This *could* indicate that apple's hardware actually has the same as or greater numbers of issues as compared to the competition, but that due to an unusually high number of positive responders or people who are more apt to not worry about issues, or the "fudge factor", they get a very positive report.

I think the numbers will normalize and become a bit more accurate (as a comparison tool) as apple gets bigger and is taking a similar bite out of the laptop pie as dell. Of course my guess is that the numbers will look almost identical to dell.

Right now the only numbers you can trust would come from apples service and repair groups, but they don't release anything directly.

 

[Eraserhead]

It's actually fine if you want the supplementary features provided you can get booked for them. But as a support boost? *&%$£@# hopeless.

My take is that they should charge more to keep the riff-raff off the Genius bars. Sorry to sound elitist but £80 is an indeterminate figure. Charge a £300 ~ £400 extension per Applecare and get me a guaranteed genius booking on that day with a guaranteed same-day fix, and I'll happily pay it.

This is what I don't understand about Apple support. Dell/HP have options so depending on your critical needs you can request (and pay for) the support you need - and get it! Apple has just the same indifferent, overpriced cover be you a student (no offense to students... well, not much ) or someone who actually relies on his IT hardware.

It's better for students as the support is free for them . But I kinda see your point, though £250 to £300 per customer is probably more realistic, I'm sure many pros would pay that kind of money especially if they are charging £500 a day.

 

[miles01110]

So I sent in my MBP to get the RSD problem fixed... along with the "pitting" of the handrest and peeling up of the topcase while it was there.

Of course... they blame me immediately for all the problems. They claim that accidental "fall damage" caused the topcase to peel apart and that the case was misaligned... which apparently caused bad heat distribution which is causing the RSD issue.

I guess they just pull at anything they can to cast the blame elsewhere... if they don't fix the shut down issue I'm gonna go nuts. Either way this is my last Apple. Dell doesn't treat their customers like this... and they dont't charge 2k either.

I always enjoy it when posts like these come up. As if the Apple community really cares if you're going back to Dell- it's your loss, not ours.

 

[skunk]

On the contrary, it's our loss when Apple's support is less than stellar. It seems there are many Macs out there which have unresolved build-quality issues. This does no good for either the user base or the platform as a whole, especially if they really want a slice of the corporate market.

 

[extraextra]

What's with all the bad reports of Applecare? They've been nothing but helpful for me, and the Geniuses barely even glance at things before they're offering to repair or replace it? Maybe you guys just have jerks at your stores?


I've literally dropped things into the water, have it short-circuit, taken it to an Apple Store, and they replaced it, barely any questions asked:
"What were you doing with it?"
"I was just on the internet when the whole thing went out!" ( )
"Hm. It's dead, we'll have to replace it."

I've been there many times and I've never seen them trying to cut corners or purposely blame the user.

 

[peas]

or maybe the genius folk at your store are anything but..

 

[peas]

I always enjoy it when posts like these come up. As if the Apple community really cares if you're going back to Dell- it's your loss, not ours.

he gets a machine that works.
where's the loss in that?

and yes, you as a fanboy do lose.
do think about your arguement longer than a keystroke?

 

[FFTT]

How many times and in how many threads have us old timers warned people about the pitfalls of buying the first release of Rev "A" machines?

It really doesn't matter who builds that Rev "A". You're going to discover certain
issues once they get out there in the real world with coffee and cigarettes and greasy fingers and dust and plenty of pilot error.

Rev "A" has the lowest specs suitable for market and then the new improved
Rev "B" takes care of the majority of issues that come up.

Apple is like any company out there contracting out to third party component
suppliers hoping to get good quality while keeping the price down.

Some third party suppliers fail miserably, like the ones who supplied the 1st
capacitors in the Rev "A" iMac G5.
That ONE third party component supplier caused an 11% failure rate
in those machines taking out the mid plane logic board.

The early G5 towers had a bad batch of Power Supply Units, that caused widespread noise issues.

It's par for the course when you can't wait for a proven machine.

Even so, Apple should resolve your issues without making your life a living hell.

You need to contact Apple Customer Relations and keep good records,
just like with any other product and insist on satisfactory results.

There are enough references to your specific problems on the web to
back up your claim, but you need to take your claim to a higher authority.

Be firm but polite.

Document everything including who you talked to.

You paid a premium for quality and that's exactly what you should expect and nothing less.

Next time, try to cycle your purchases on Rev "B" or later.

 

[Gaelic1]

I find it so funny that when people have a bad experience with Apple, they seem to always have had GREAT experiences with Dell. Whenever someone says something positive about Apple in these threads is automatically "fanboy"

Its almost never "I just want to vent", or "I'm frustrated, maybe you can give me advice" its "I hate apple..... and Dell is so much: cheaper, better, better support, better specs, better user experience... and XP really isn't that bad, especially since Tiger is so unstable"

Rescue.com Scored Apple (Larger score better) a 201, IBM Lenovo a 243, HP/Compaq 12, and Dell a screaming 4! This scores reliability. August PC Magazine consistently rates Apple at the top of the reliability and service support pile. You've just been lucky with your Dell experience.

 

[Macmadant]

So I sent in my MBP to get the RSD problem fixed... along with the "pitting" of the handrest and peeling up of the topcase while it was there.

Of course... they blame me immediately for all the problems. They claim that accidental "fall damage" caused the topcase to peel apart and that the case was misaligned... which apparently caused bad heat distribution which is causing the RSD issue.

I guess they just pull at anything they can to cast the blame elsewhere... if they don't fix the shut down issue I'm gonna go nuts. Either way this is my last Apple. Dell doesn't treat their customers like this... and they dont't charge 2k either.

Well that shame it happened to you, it depends how much you love OSX on weather you'll go back to dell, and have you had a dell before and had an issue with them that they fixed really quickly ?. personally i love OSX, and i couldn't put up with windows i hate the way it works which all D drives C drives blah blah. i don't get along with it well at all at school, OSX just makes sense, everything is the way it should be, plus I'd probley wait until vista is out then get a del, not that i can see it's a very good improvement over XP

 

[KevKaos]

he gets a machine that works.
where's the loss in that?

and yes, you as a fanboy do lose.
do think about your arguement longer than a keystroke?

DUHHHHH You think you could take a keystroke of a moment to learn how to spell "argument".

Must be a Dell user.

Hey, wait a sec, I'm a Dell user.

Whatever.