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since I couldn't wait, I had a friend help build me a hackintosh (i9, 2 tb ssd M.2 - I get >3000 mb/s, radeon 5700 xt nitro +, 64gb ram - 3200 mhz). it cost me around 3500 dollars incl. a high-end 4k gaming display (144 hz) with 90% of p3 color space, and one day of installing hw/sw. I am very happy with it, it runs smoothly, also on windows. I wished, apple would offer such a solution for a prosumer grade mac pro so I wouldn't have to resort to such measures; i would even pay more. cpu wise it's above the fastest imac (in single core) and almost as fast as an imac pro 10 core in multi core as thermal throttling does not occur (I get consistent speed of 4.7 ghz while running cinebench). gpu-wise, I can run most games at 4k on high settings under windows. openCL is almost 50% faster under windows than under mac os (i get 78000ish which is just 5% below the mac's pro gpu - on openCL of course, on metal, the mac pro's gpu is 50% faster; I suspect amd's mac os driver still suck for the 5700 xt). the only downside is that it's not as silent as a mac pro but definitely more silent than any imac I have had before which is horrible under load. while my display is great, especially for gaming, the imac/pro's display is still ahead, especially in vibrancy and blacks. 5k is also a bit better for reading than 4k. however, one will never be able to play any game in 5k native resolution, not even in 1440p on an imac on highest settings without either having less than 60 fps or a loud fan. in conclusion: once apple realizes their mistake in not offering a prosumer grad tower mac pro and once apple fixes the imac's thermal issues, I am willing to pay more again for a mac. until then, I am outperforming any mac up to 8000 usd for less than half the price with a fully expandable system.
 
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The fact that the iMac Pro exists means there should be little surprise if they decide to go that way for the next iMac as the engineering work has been done already.

Sure, of course. And with the iMP overlapping the MP, there is increasingly less chance to see an update of the iMP coming out.

Apple could take the road of creating a new iMac based on the iMP cooling but with a different body.

That would allow them a higher range of builds up to the highest with an i9 10c (or a Threadripper, in a better world) and a high-end GPU such as a 5700 or 5700XT (I wouldn't bet on the 5800 or 5900).

Eliminating HDD, bezels and incorporating new antennas for WiFi6, BT5 and... perhaps UWB? they will be obliged to redesign the case.

Furthermore, it is time to update the iSight 720p crapcam, which could lead to a FaceID system.

The hope is that they keep walking the path of the 16"MBP, where they did actually show to have listened to the users' feedback.

The RAM door could have been mounted on the iMP. As far as I know (and it does sound credible), the decision of keeping the RAM locked - even though it is actually standard DIMMs socketed in RAM slots - was made out of aesthetics: since it was not centered anymore, it would have looked like a patch.

Could I care less about how does my iMac's back look? 😁 They already decided to keep all the ports on the back "because the front must be clean", don't push it too much and sacrifice the most basic access on a computer, Apple!

It is either this way... or Apple should stop ripping us off with the RAM upgrades and offer initial configurations at market prices.
 
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My question is will Apple update iMac Pro?

CPUs and GPUs suitable for refresh are available - and there has been a significant price cut on the 2019 Xeon CPUs by Intel - so there's no reason why they shouldn't. It's just a question of what they do with the 27" (non Pro) iMac.

That's a question that might not get addressed until October if Apple were waiting for a refresh for 10th generation Comet Lake S CPUs.

I wouldn't be averse to seeing a refreshed 27" iMac Pro fully replace the non Pro 27" iMac altogether but starting with less RAM (16Gb) and SSD storage (512Gb) to reduce the average selling price and entry level.

Obviously, I'd think that a lesser specced but larger screened 24" 4k iMac (also SSD) could take up the slack in the space below that, and Apple could keep the odd 21.5" iMac around for another year if they think they need to cover an entry level.

The RAM door could have been mounted on the iMP. As far as I know (and it does sound credible), the decision of keeping the RAM locked - even though it is actually standard DIMMs socketed in RAM slots - was made out of aesthetics: since it was not centered anymore, it would have looked like a patch.

I've not seen anything about an aesthetic argument over the iMac Pro 27" dispensing with the RAM access door - I always assumed it was to accommodate the cooling system. But bear in mind that Jony Ive is no longer leading the industrial design team. Maybe there's scope for compromise there?
 
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Could I care less about how does my iMac's back look? 😁 They already decided to keep all the ports on the back "because the front must be clean", don't push it too much and sacrifice the most basic access on a computer, Apple!

Design is extremely important to Apple, and user upgradable ram - not so much.

I‘d gladly take the trade of iMac Pro cooling and internals with the new intel chips, but losing the ram. I think people are making waay to big of a deal with the ram..
 
I always assumed it was to accommodate the cooling system.

Nope. The RAM is user-accessible (given you detach and glue back the screen). Socketed and far from the heat pipes. It's just not centered anymore, therefore you would see the door, while the iMac hides it behind the monitor arm.

imac-pro-ifixit-teardown.jpg



I think people are making waay to big of a deal with the ram..

Perhaps you didn't check the cost of the RAM upgrades on the Mac Pro. They cost up to 6x market standards.

We bought recently an i9 iMac 2019 with 8GB and brought it up to 40GB with about 160$, while Apple was asking 180$ to give it to us with 16GB.
 
Sure, of course. And with the iMP overlapping the MP, there is increasingly less chance to see an update of the iMP coming out.

Apple could take the road of creating a new iMac based on the iMP cooling but with a different body.

That would allow them a higher range of builds up to the highest with an i9 10c (or a Threadripper, in a better world) and a high-end GPU such as a 5700 or 5700XT (I wouldn't bet on the 5800 or 5900).

Eliminating HDD, bezels and incorporating new antennas for WiFi6, BT5 and... perhaps UWB? they will be obliged to redesign the case.

Furthermore, it is time to update the iSight 720p crapcam, which could lead to a FaceID system.

The hope is that they keep walking the path of the 16"MBP, where they did actually show to have listened to the users' feedback.

The RAM door could have been mounted on the iMP. As far as I know (and it does sound credible), the decision of keeping the RAM locked - even though it is actually standard DIMMs socketed in RAM slots - was made out of aesthetics: since it was not centered anymore, it would have looked like a patch.

Could I care less about how does my iMac's back look? 😁 They already decided to keep all the ports on the back "because the front must be clean", don't push it too much and sacrifice the most basic access on a computer, Apple!

It is either this way... or Apple should stop ripping us off with the RAM upgrades and offer initial configurations at market prices.

Thank you so much for that insight. You seem very knowledgable when it comes to iMac's, maybe you can give me your opinion on the current iMac Pro from 2017. After years of happiness with my current MP 5.1, I would love to get a slightly used iMac Pro later this year. That decision is already kind of done. However, the only worry I have is the longterm software support. My current Vega VII will go into a Razor X Chroma eGPU case to be utilized as a GPU booster. My current SSD blades will go into a TB3 Sonnet box and the current Apple Display will remain as a second monitor on that iMP.
But how long will I be able to keep that setup into the future? It might be better to get a regular iMac 2019 from that perspective. But I just want the better cooling and more silent machine, - which is the iMP.
Or would you recommend to keep that 5.1 even longer and be stuck with Mojave in the long run? So far I am happy,
maybe I should wait till 2021/22.
 
But how long will I be able to keep that setup into the future? It might be better to get a regular iMac 2019 from that perspective. But I just want the better cooling and more silent machine, - which is the iMP.
Or would you recommend to keep that 5.1 even longer and be stuck with Mojave in the long run? So far I am happy,
maybe I should wait till 2021/22.

Thanks, man. However, I do not know the iMac so well. I know Macs since I have been using them since 1986 and I have an Electronic Engineering degree but I owned only an iMac, the G4 (Luxo). I have been relying on Mac Pros all the time: from the Mac IIcx to the Mac Pro 5,1, passing through Quadras, PowerMacs, G4s and G5s and a few notebooks.

Having said that, I believe I am in a similar situation (if I got yours): my old Mac Pro works still pretty fine albeit I would have changed it for something faster if there had been an option. Apple used to sell the Pro desktop for 2-3k $ and now has stepped onto the 5-6k minimum, which is far too much for me.

Like you, I feel I can easily wait a bit more, given the present options. That is why I would suggest you to wait at least the 2020 range before taking a decision.

The 2019 iMac is a beautiful machine, but very old in so many ways (BT, WiFi, bezel, thermal capacity, GPU, speakers, even the screen...). Perfect for any consumer, good for many prosumers, not very good when you move to users who are looking for a higher-end Mac. The iMP is outdated and with the Mac Pro out, it has become useful in very few cases, mainly for its price (and it is based on the same hw as the iMac, as far as Wifi, BT and webcam are concerned).

Given the fact that the iMac is not upgradable, I would go for it only when it reflects at least 90% of my requirements. I need BT 5.0, a faster WiFi (can't wire it) a good GPU and I don't mind a better webcam (I do a lot of video conferencing), HDR + Dolby Atmos for my relaxing time and a more modern design with smaller bezels.

I will retain the screen and use it as a second screen but I do not own an eGPU. Given you use the right software, you could use it as additional processing power as you said. In alternative - should your sw not support GPGPUs - you can still connect the second screen to the eGPU and lighten the burden to the internal GPU.

It is hard to know how long will it take to Apple to move to ARM but for prosumers/pro users I believe the transition will be slow. Therefore, the only real "big" step at the horizon as much as CPUs are concerned is the 11th Gen from Intel, finally on 10nm (Rocket Lake). It will bring TDPs finally back to "Apple levels" thus allowing for more tangible performance gains on Macs. However, it will very likely happen not earlier than the end of 2021, beginning of 2022.

On the GPU side, AMD should come out with the real RDNA architecture (the 5000 series uses the old instruction set), but given the Apple product line, you will never see a high-end card on an iMac.

As I said, there is a chance that Apple cancels the iMP and expands the iMac range to cover for its performance and price, if they incorporate some of the design/cooling features.

Personally, I am ready to wait up to another 10 months (till the beginning of November 2020) to see what happens.
They have already in their hands the CPUs and GPUs for the new iMP. Given it is not supposed to cannibalize the Mac Pro, it makes no sense that they didn't present at least a refresh yet. I guess they are either waiting for the iMac to be ready and present both at the same time (that would be quite strange) with a new design or they are aware that the space between the high-end iMac and the Mac Pro is quite squeezed and may get rid of the machine.

As for the iMac: the CPUs are very likely going to be unveiled at CES tomorrow and be available in volume by the end of February. Allowing for a 12 month March release or an 18month window in October/November. There are so many new technologies missing in the present iMac that makes it too old for the market that I am confident we will see it being upgraded this year. (T2/T3, TouchID/FaceID, SSD as standard, HDR, Dolby Atmos, Wifi6, BT5...). GPUs? Well, it all depends on what Apple wants to do and how much cooling capacity will allow for the new Mac, but many are already available and Apple surely has other SKUs of 5300/5500/5800? in their hands.

My opinion so far is that we could see the following scenarios:

* new iMacs (perhaps in Q2/Q3) with improved cooling than the iMP, covering from about 1.5 to 5k $ in two versions (21.5/27 or maybe 24/30). No new iMP. Perhaps a Space Grey version only for the high-end configuration? (remember the black Macbook?) GPUs could go beyond the 5700XT.

* new iMacs (Q2/Q3) with new design and GPU limited up to the 5600/5700 (2-4k $) and iMP (Q3/Q4) upgraded to the new design but with additional cooling (perhaps solutions like the back of the XDR panel) with new CPUs (Cascade Lake W) and GPUs (5700/5700XT and perhaps a 5800/5900) (for the range 4k to 8k $)

* new iMP (Q2) refreshed with new CPUs (Cascade Lake W) and GPUs (5600/5700XT) (4-8k). iMacs only in Q3/Q4 with new design, CPUs and mid-range RDNA2 cards.


I highly doubt Apple would switch to AMD CPUs. As fantastic it would be, it doesn't make much marketing sense unless it would be only for the iMac and mac mini with Ryzen. Intel still leads on the mobile range and it would be pretty absurd to "downgrade" the Xeon to the Threadripper, as much as it would increase performance in many SKUs and retain ECC, while EPYC CPUs are much less responsive for the daily tasks (and OS GUI).
They will just go ARM when they are ready, I think.

Perhaps the three scenarios are all a bit permissive as far as the TDP, but allow me to hope for the best! :D

@
 
Sure, of course. And with the iMP overlapping the MP, there is increasingly less chance to see an update of the iMP coming out.

I disagree. The imp and mp are not even in the same ballpark as far as what an imp user can afford to spend.
 
My question is will Apple update iMac Pro?

I felt strongly that they will, but this week on the Mac Podcast circuit the majority felt that the iMac Pro no longer served a purpose between the 2019 Mac Pro and Intel pushing Enthusiast chips with double-digit core counts, squeezing the iMac Pro from top and bottom.

IMO, if Apple does not announce a new iMac Pro at WWDC, or announces a new 27" iMac industrial design with significantly improved cooling (so SSD only with larger fans ala the current iMac Pro) and Cascade-X CPUs then I would be of the opinion the iMac Pro is done.
 
You're right, it's just the game of speculation. :)

New thin design with small neck and thin bezels, with a more flexible monitor arm.

Wifi 6
BT 5
Comet Lake S up to i9 10C/20T
2933 MHz RAM DDR4
RX 5500, 5600 and 5700 (on PCI3 though)
T2 chips (or T3 in case they bring FaceID to the iMac)
100% PC3 650 nits (to get at least a decent HDR) new panel (maybe 28-30"), perhaps with some hint of a new cooling system that recalls the XDR monitor.

MAYBE two more TB3 ports, since Comet lake will offer more PCI lanes.

SSD only (I hope in two drive RAID configurations, but it might remain an iMP prerogative)

Dolby Atmos audio (2.1) via new speakers (they need to point upwards)

and I hope still accessible RAM via the back door!!! PLEASE!

Finally, since the MBP 16" seems will bring a new keyboard, it could be a chance for a new magic keyboard (with TouchID if no FaceID?) and a mouse with a better charging port.

I think that sounds about right. I think they will add 10Gig-E too. I also think they will merge the iMac and iMac Pro now the mac Pro is out to simplify things and to push some buyers towards the Mac Pro. Consumer chips are often quicker than the low to mid end Xeon's used in the iMac Pro and if the RAM limit of these is increased to 256GB (like it is on threadripper) there it would enable Apple to produce one machine that scales from a 6-core i5 with 8/16GB RAM to a 10+ core i9 with 256GB RAM. They will do some clever marketing thing so it doesn't sound like the iMac Pro was just a stop-gap.
 
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As an owner of the imp and past mp's, but never would even consider these nmp prices, I still think the imp has it's place for semi-pros who do't want to spend $12k. Seems to me, the fan issue, or noise issue, between the im and imp could be easily solved. Then that leaves just the server cpu and ecc ram vs regular. I'd gladly give up the server specs in exchange for a more powerful more capable new line of cpu's with 8-12 cores, and faster memory. It really depends on how much attention Apple feels like giving the imacs in general. I could see it going either way. Hard to predict these days. Who would have thought that they wopuld have spent so much time and effort on the new imp with such a low volume marketplace, albeit a high dollar one. But at this point, I'm in no hurry, since I hate the idea of being forced into Catalina just yet.
 
I agree with you but the space is really small: when you upgrade the iMP with a bit more RAM, few more cores or going for a bigger SSD, you get less quality for the buck than with the MP. As soon as you move to 7-8k $ it makes no sense to me.

Therefore, I think Apple will find a way to get a few pumped iMac configs to cover for it, rather than selling just 1-2 configs of the iMP. Given the volume of sales for the iMP, it would save money to Apple and make the range more sensible now that the MP is here. The only way to make something that wouldn't overlap with the iMac and MP would be to build finally the Mac X (partially upgradable desktop in the range of 2-5k without a screen).
 
Who would have thought that they wopuld have spent so much time and effort on the new imp with such a low volume marketplace, albeit a high dollar one.

I still remain convinced the iMac Pro was meant to be the replacement for the Mac Pro as the top-end Mac offering.

This is only speculation on my part, but I am inclined to believe that the Pro Workflow Team (or it's precursor) identified that the most demanding video and audio tasks being done with Macs were beyond the ability of the iMac Pro due to the thermal limits that limited how powerful a CPU or GPU they could install in the chassis even with the improved cooling (or forcing the cooling to run at "hair-dryer" volumes like the non-pro iMac which was undesirable, especially for audio work).

At that point, Apple either had to accept those people would (eventually) move to Windows / Linux workstations or create a Mac that could handle those tasks and do so while still running cool and quiet. They decided on the latter course and that Mac became the 2019 Mac Pro.
 
I'm pretty convinced they're gonna do a 32" version. If I was Apple I would just ditch the iMac Pro and make a real top end iMac version but go with the space grey color for all.
 
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Thanks, man. However, I do not know the iMac so well. I know Macs since I have been using them since 1986 and I have an Electronic Engineering degree but I owned only an iMac, the G4 (Luxo). I have been relying on Mac Pros all the time: from the Mac IIcx to the Mac Pro 5,1, passing through Quadras, PowerMacs, G4s and G5s and a few notebooks.

Having said that, I believe I am in a similar situation (if I got yours): my old Mac Pro works still pretty fine albeit I would have changed it for something faster if there had been an option. Apple used to sell the Pro desktop for 2-3k $ and now has stepped onto the 5-6k minimum, which is far too much for me.

Like you, I feel I can easily wait a bit more, given the present options. That is why I would suggest you to wait at least the 2020 range before taking a decision.

The 2019 iMac is a beautiful machine, but very old in so many ways (BT, WiFi, bezel, thermal capacity, GPU, speakers, even the screen...). Perfect for any consumer, good for many prosumers, not very good when you move to users who are looking for a higher-end Mac. The iMP is outdated and with the Mac Pro out, it has become useful in very few cases, mainly for its price (and it is based on the same hw as the iMac, as far as Wifi, BT and webcam are concerned).

Given the fact that the iMac is not upgradable, I would go for it only when it reflects at least 90% of my requirements. I need BT 5.0, a faster WiFi (can't wire it) a good GPU and I don't mind a better webcam (I do a lot of video conferencing), HDR + Dolby Atmos for my relaxing time and a more modern design with smaller bezels.

I will retain the screen and use it as a second screen but I do not own an eGPU. Given you use the right software, you could use it as additional processing power as you said. In alternative - should your sw not support GPGPUs - you can still connect the second screen to the eGPU and lighten the burden to the internal GPU.

It is hard to know how long will it take to Apple to move to ARM but for prosumers/pro users I believe the transition will be slow. Therefore, the only real "big" step at the horizon as much as CPUs are concerned is the 11th Gen from Intel, finally on 10nm (Rocket Lake). It will bring TDPs finally back to "Apple levels" thus allowing for more tangible performance gains on Macs. However, it will very likely happen not earlier than the end of 2021, beginning of 2022.

On the GPU side, AMD should come out with the real RDNA architecture (the 5000 series uses the old instruction set), but given the Apple product line, you will never see a high-end card on an iMac.

As I said, there is a chance that Apple cancels the iMP and expands the iMac range to cover for its performance and price, if they incorporate some of the design/cooling features.

Personally, I am ready to wait up to another 10 months (till the beginning of November 2020) to see what happens.
They have already in their hands the CPUs and GPUs for the new iMP. Given it is not supposed to cannibalize the Mac Pro, it makes no sense that they didn't present at least a refresh yet. I guess they are either waiting for the iMac to be ready and present both at the same time (that would be quite strange) with a new design or they are aware that the space between the high-end iMac and the Mac Pro is quite squeezed and may get rid of the machine.

As for the iMac: the CPUs are very likely going to be unveiled at CES tomorrow and be available in volume by the end of February. Allowing for a 12 month March release or an 18month window in October/November. There are so many new technologies missing in the present iMac that makes it too old for the market that I am confident we will see it being upgraded this year. (T2/T3, TouchID/FaceID, SSD as standard, HDR, Dolby Atmos, Wifi6, BT5...). GPUs? Well, it all depends on what Apple wants to do and how much cooling capacity will allow for the new Mac, but many are already available and Apple surely has other SKUs of 5300/5500/5800? in their hands.

My opinion so far is that we could see the following scenarios:

* new iMacs (perhaps in Q2/Q3) with improved cooling than the iMP, covering from about 1.5 to 5k $ in two versions (21.5/27 or maybe 24/30). No new iMP. Perhaps a Space Grey version only for the high-end configuration? (remember the black Macbook?) GPUs could go beyond the 5700XT.

* new iMacs (Q2/Q3) with new design and GPU limited up to the 5600/5700 (2-4k $) and iMP (Q3/Q4) upgraded to the new design but with additional cooling (perhaps solutions like the back of the XDR panel) with new CPUs (Cascade Lake W) and GPUs (5700/5700XT and perhaps a 5800/5900) (for the range 4k to 8k $)

* new iMP (Q2) refreshed with new CPUs (Cascade Lake W) and GPUs (5600/5700XT) (4-8k). iMacs only in Q3/Q4 with new design, CPUs and mid-range RDNA2 cards.


I highly doubt Apple would switch to AMD CPUs. As fantastic it would be, it doesn't make much marketing sense unless it would be only for the iMac and mac mini with Ryzen. Intel still leads on the mobile range and it would be pretty absurd to "downgrade" the Xeon to the Threadripper, as much as it would increase performance in many SKUs and retain ECC, while EPYC CPUs are much less responsive for the daily tasks (and OS GUI).
They will just go ARM when they are ready, I think.

Perhaps the three scenarios are all a bit permissive as far as the TDP, but allow me to hope for the best! :D

@


I hope your first scenario will come true. I'm so desperate for a silent iMac for a long time.
 
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It's getting more and more difficult for Apple to release new products that do not cannibalize themselves. CPUs, GPUs and SSDs reached speed that allows even low end computers to satisfy complicated workflows only workstations could have done a few years ago.

Big advantages of Macs are retina displays, macOS and the cool design. That's what no one else is offering.

The next iMac might have bigger screens, but will still not be upgradable. Apple simply can't afford to allow this.

It will be interested to see if the new (redesigned) iMacs still have Intel CPUs. I'd say no.
 
It's getting more and more difficult for Apple to release new products that do not cannibalize themselves. CPUs, GPUs and SSDs reached speed that allows even low end computers to satisfy complicated workflows only workstations could have done a few years ago.

Big advantages of Macs are retina displays, macOS and the cool design. That's what no one else is offering.

The next iMac might have bigger screens, but will still not be upgradable. Apple simply can't afford to allow this.

It will be interested to see if the new (redesigned) iMacs still have Intel CPUs. I'd say no.

I think this is a quote but they have said that they'd rather cannibalise themselves rather than have someone else do the job - it might be applied to the phone market where the iPhone SE2 is set to offer something at a certain price point below the iPhone XR, 11, etc.

As for screens for the next iMac you only have to look to what LG are offering for clues to what Apple could offer.

For example, could the non-Pro iMac go Ultrawide 21:9 in a 5k2k 34" size? There would be fewer pixels to drive.

And they could offer a 24" 4k version too.
 
but will still not be upgradable. Apple simply can't afford to allow this.
I don't understand that Apple computers aren't upgradeable. The iMac certainly RAM can be upgraded and with the thunderbolt 3 interface just about anything can be upgraded at any speed anyone could need. Certainy solid state storage of any size and speed can be added and be the boot drive. An eGPU can be added to strengthen graphics. All this can be done easier than any pc tower. Granted CPU and cooling would be difficult but not many venture into this kind of upgrade. They can be upgraded on an iMac with the added difficulty of screen removal but if CPU is being updated this added step is not a big deal.
 
I don't understand that Apple computers aren't upgradeable. The iMac certainly RAM can be upgraded and with the thunderbolt 3 interface just about anything can be upgraded at any speed anyone could need. Certainy solid state storage of any size and speed can be added and be the boot drive. An eGPU can be added to strengthen graphics. All this can be done easier than any pc tower. Granted CPU and cooling would be difficult but not many venture into this kind of upgrade. They can be upgraded on an iMac with the added difficulty of screen removal but if CPU is being updated this added step is not a big deal.

I think once SSD is standard throughout the iMac range, as long as RAM access is still feasible that's all most users will really need.

The main reason for wanting to open up an iMac after that would be to remove dust from fans and heatsinks from time to time but the way the current iMacs are designed (even the Pro) the PSU appears to be a bit exposed once opened - making it very dangerous.

If Apple address this in a major refresh it might become less of a factor. I'm sure most people here wouldn't have a major issue with it.

If the Mac mini became beefier, that sounds like the kind of device (with eGPU) that Apple want professional users to be able able to service. At least it's possible to open one up and clean the insides if that's important.
 
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