Post part 1
You seemed to miss the entire point of the comparison. I said a "spec for spec" comparison. Identical. Although, I did use a cheaper display. Every single one of your posts though was: "Why not something else".
The problem with your "comparison" is that you artificially inflated the cost of the system. You used a more expensive motherboard than you needed, more expensive case and PSU. You added in $60 of random junk. You included features that the end user did not need or will never use, like Bluetooth.
I stated that you have choice, but this isn't the point of the comparison. The point is, Apple is (based off those prices, which are pretty low already), selling the iMac for roughly $200 more than I could buy those parts for.
With your artificially inflated costs, sure.
But not in reality. Someone interested in an iMac doesn't need a high end motherboard, because they're not interested in upgrades. Hell, you can't even upgrade the new iMac's HDD yourself any more!
http://www.9to5mac.com/66736/owc-choose-your-new-imac-hard-drive-wisely-you-only-get-one-shot/
Nobody uses Bluetooth for anything other than Apple keyboard + mouse. Nobody needs $60 worth of "peripherals".
And what benchmarks can you link to that show the GTX 460 being faster than the 6850? I can give you several that show it on par with the GTX 460 if not better.
Once again, the 6850 IS NOT THE CARD IN THE iMac! It doesn't matter how much you say "the 6970m is just a lower clocked version, so compare the GTX 460 to the 6850!" The card in the iMac is NOT the 6850 it is the 6970! And I've already provided comparison frame-rates FROM MY OWN SYSTEM to the benchmarks posted in this thread.
What you're saying is basically the same as "A Mustang Coupe is just a 6 cylinder version of the Mustang GT, so compare your speeds to the GT instead!"
The GPU in the iMac is NOT the 6850 desktop, it is the lower clocked and lower power 6970 and it is SLOWER as I have proven. Significantly slower.
Thats just ludicrous. Seriously. You can't say "compare to this other significantly faster card because this card is just a slower version of it.". How does that even make sense?
Not only that, but the GTX 460 is a VERY overclockable part. You can easily run that card at 800/1600 with 2GHz memory on stock cooling with very little increase in temperature. Thats significant increase. If your case has good airflow you can push it up to 900/1800 and 2.2GHz and it'd be 100% stable. Let's see the iMac GPU go for a 200+MHz overclock.
I've said, and only said, since it's the best comparison available until benchmarks of the iMac w/ the 6970M are released, that it'll perform a bit less than the 6850. So, take 10% off, even 15%! And that's about right.
I've already posted benchmarks of the 6970m. It's already widely available in other PCs. What makes those benchmarks invalid? In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if those benchmarks are actually better than what we'll see with the iMac because Apple's Windows drivers are terrible and they disable certain features like AHCI.
No, my definition of "playing" and "good performance" is at the very least 30 FPS on medium or high. Preferably 60. I was using my iMac, which was released two years ago, as an example.
My definition is 60 frames at highest settings. Modern $600 PCs can do it and non-Apple computers from 2 years ago that cost $1,000 or more can still do it.
And, I didn't buy this iMac for gaming. I bought it for work. And this is Metro 2033 we're talking about. You'd probably only get 90 FPS on the lowest settings at 2560x1440. Let's say 150 at 1080p.
Why would you buy an iMac for work?
I bought my PC to do "everything".
It's a $1000 system with a $1000 screen. The iMacs are limited to mobile graphics cards, they can only be as powerful as the technology allows.
No, more like a $700 PC with an $800 screen.
iMacs are only limited to mobile graphics because of Apple's poor designs.
Wrong, it's not the $2000 iMac getting those frame rates, its a mobile graphics card in a laptop. You do realize a CPU can bottleneck gaming performance, yes?
For those two games? The GPU is the bottleneck in DiRT 2. For BFBC2, the only time the CPU becomes a factor is if you're playing a large online match. But as long as you're playing on a quad core CPU, you're fine. I know someone with a Core i7 notebook at 1.7GHz and a GeForce GTX 460M who has no problem getting a solid 60 frames at 1080p, max settings, in multiplayer matches.
And why did you disable AA? The video didn't have AA disabled. It was set to MSAA 2x. Try your test again.
Did you read what I said? With HBAO, max settings, and 4xMSAA, I averaged 68 frames per second in BFBC2 running the exact same thing as the notebook benchmark I posted, which only averaged 49 frames. Same with DiRT 2. Ultra settings, 4xMSAA. They averaged 47.7 I averaged 70.5.
I disabled anti-aliasing, as you suggested, for a separate test, and averaged 105 frames per second, comparing to your earlier frame-rate with no AA and the iMac video you posted.
And again, you're not comparing a $2000 desktop to a $700 desktop, you're comparing a $2000 all-in-one that has a $1000 screen to a $700 self built.
You need to quit with this $1,000 screen nonsense. It's already been proven that the cheaper Dell screen is better, meaning Apple's screen is worth several hundred dollars less than they price it.
It's still using a mobile GPU. As I said, CPU can be a bottleneck. You can't really compare an i7 2620QM @ 2.3(?)GHz to a 3.1GHz i5 2500 that well. The FPS will likely be a bit higher.
For BFBC2 and DiRT2? Not at all. The GPU is absolutely the bottleneck for both of those games if they're running at the highest settings.
You greatly overestimate the modern CPU's role in modern games.
I never said it would outperform the GTX 460. And, you do realize it doesn't matter that its a mobile GPU? If you took its clocks up to the same as the 6850, you should get the same performance.
There you go again. It's not the same as the 6850. It's just not. It doesn't matter. So forget about it.
If your Windows installation is truly screwed up, reinstall it. I can't stress that enough. REINSTALL. YOUR. OS. IT. WILL. FIX. EVERYTHING. SHORT. OF. LEGITIMATE. HARDWARE. ISSUES.
I've lost count of all the times I've had to reinstall OS X because something screwed up or because its slowed down.
A Glossy display has a crisper and sharper picture. Impossible on a matte display. Most professionals in my line of work use glossy displays, with a anti-gloss treatment. Glossy displays give a better picture.
Heard this argument before. As someone who has used both types of displays extensively, that is patently false.
I know a lot of graphic artists, game artists, animators, and other types of "Artistic" types who won't go near glossy displays.
Also, again, Apple uses edge-lit LED backlighting. So there is no real world advantage over CCFL other than "instant on" and possible, but not always, power savings.
Trolling much? No advantages. Ok.
Again, only real world advantage is instant on. Power savings is more "in theory" than in practice.
Edge-lit LEDs can't do squat for black levels or color depth, despite what Apple tells you. Because edge-lit LEDs are just a strip of white LEDs along the side of the LCD panel that project light inward.
Now, RGBLED is a different story. Thats actually behind the LCD panel and they can change colors. But Apple doesn't use those.
You cannot just take any IPS display and say it should cost this much or that much. Not all IPS displays are the same. Not this stupid argument again. Really? $1500. Give me the average price for each not including what I left out. Put your money where your mouth is. Average prices. Go Ahead.
Read the entire thread. Theres already links posted to prices.
Now build me a Windows PC with all the specs above for $800.00
Doesn't have to be exact. But close.
Than include the OS with comparable programs that OSX already comes with. Software is part of the equation.
Having used OS X for years now, I can tell you the fact that a Mac comes with OS X is a huge negative. And the only useful pre-installed app is iLife. Picasa on Windows is no worse.
As far as the specs go, thats freaking hilarious. "All aluminum enclosure and glass front". Really?
No glossy displays please.
I want something with airflow so my CPU and GPU don't run at near max temperatures all the time.
Don't need bluetooth. Don't need an ambient light sensor (I've turned that off on my MacBook, iPad, iPhone 4). Sony optical drive? Yikes. No thanks. I'll take a $20 Lite-On DVD writer or $60 blu-ray reader. 21.5" IPS edge-lit LED LCD display? Plenty for $200-$250. SDXC card reader? You can get multi-card readers for $5. Intel motherboard? Don't have much of a choice, do I? Motherboards for Sandy Bridge start in the low double digits. Wifi? No thanks. This is a desktop. Wifi would be stupid. Thunderbolt? Something nothing uses? No thanks. USB 3.0 and eSATA are EVERYWHERE. Radeon HD GDDR5? You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Faster GeForce GTX 460 can be had for $150 or so. 4GB of RAM? When I built my PC a few months ago, 8GB was $70. 1TB HDD? My 1.5TB HDD was $60.
The problem with windows is the hardware doesn't talk to the software very well.
This really doesn't mean much from someone who can't even list specs properly. Clearly you don't know enough about the hardware and software in a computer to even really be having this discussion.
It was nothing she did, Windows does not work very well for the average consumer. They buy them because they are cheap, nothing else. You act no one on here uses Windows. Everyone on here uses Windows. We know what it does, it's shortcomings and it's benefits.
BS. In the almost two decades I've been working with computers, I have NEVER had what she claimed to have happen to her actually happen.
You can get malware because Windows is a insecure OS. Has nothing do to with the user. Open a e'mail and you have malware.
Sorry, this isn't 1998 any more. That simply is NOT true.
The difference is that it still need permission in OSX from the user to execute. Windows Malware does not. The link above relies on the user to execute the malware and give it permission. You have it backwards.
Did you read the link I posted?
Note: Still not one Virus in the wild that has infected a wide number of OSX users. Not one.
Thats just a numbers game. You're talking 30 million or so actual OS X users (Apple likes to lump iOS users into OS X numbers) versus a billion or so Windows users.
Windows 7 is still a joke compared to OSX. You can't be serious? are you. I own both and Windows 7 while better than Vista, the simplicity of OSX and well.....' it just works'. There not even comparable. Don't kid yourself.
Explain to me how Windows 7 is a "joke" compared to OS X, when OS X can't even play modern video files and has no modern 3D support.
It still has "permissions' issues
You're talking about OS X there. You must be so new to OS X that you've never had the joy of having to wait while Disk Utility repaired your HDD's "permissions".
How? Explain. If something needs elevated privileges in Windows you can easily grant it without having to re-enter your password every single time like OS X. Thats not "security" in OS X, as my link previously posted demonstrates, thats a pain in the butt.
Such as? All of the systems I have ever built have NEVER had hardware issues. All of the systems I have built for myself have NEVER had hardware issues. There are systems I built more than 10 years ago that are STILL running the ORIGINAL hardware.
It still gets viruses, spyware, trojans, malware etc and the list goes on.
If you actively install it yourself, sure. Thats the cold hard truth. This isn't 1998 any more. Viruses don't just happen.
You still have to put software to "fix' software.
What? A fresh install of Snow Leopard requires me to download more updates than a fresh install of Windows 7.
Some hardware is not recognized 'at all without the proper drivers, none of which Windows provides.
Thanks for proving you've never used Windows 7. Or Vista. Both OSes will automatically search online for drivers for unrecognized hardware.
Windows 7 is still a joke no matter how you look at it. I don't care if you have a 16 core processor and three graphics cards in one box, hardware is only as good as the software that runs that hardware. How often do you have to update 'drivers' and get "updates' to fix problems only to find out that the 'fixes' actually causes more problems or makes them worse.
Thanks for proving, yet again, that you've never used Windows 7. What you're speaking of NEVER happens unless the USER causes it.
Being able to update drivers is actually a GOOD thing. Over the years, I've had features added to soundcards thanks to driver updates. My GPU performance has improved thanks to driver updates. A TV tuner I used to use received new features thanks to driver updates and improved image quality as well.
MS pushing out Windows updates regularly shows that they are PROACTIVE in keeping Windows secure.
I gave my Dell to my six year old, she even gets frustrated with it. I have a Wifi card installed and you have to 'restart' the computer for the WiFi to connect, there is a 'driver' issue with Windows 7 I was told by a microsoft rep. And that rep happens to be my brother in law, and yes he has a Mac.
If you're actually telling the truth, sounds like a faulty wifi card. I have NEVER had that happen in ANY Windows machine. But I have had the "AirPort" card in my Mac disappear in OS X. Didn't disappear in Windows but certainly did in OS X. Had to get in Windows to get online to see how to fix it. Funny eh? Windows saves the day!
I consider Windows to be a 'virus', it breaks everything it touches, and frustrates every user to ever use it. The user you are saying is "their fault' is no exception.
rofl, yeah, you've never used Windows 7. I'm using OS X right now, Snow Leopard, and its driving me up the wall. I only got on to sync my iPhone 4. I can't stand how slow it is or how certain keyboard shortcuts don't work the way they should. And everywhere is boring bland gray. It's so depressing.
You're barking up the wrong tree here. Your not going to a hassle free machine with a OS that was designed to work with multiple hardware manufactures, there will always be headaches. As with the other Windows machines I have used over the years, Windows 7 is no different, it has it's shares of problems.
It's not hassle free? Really? Is that why the desktop I built 3 months ago is 100% rock solid stable with no problems? Is that why I only have to reboot it when theres an update that requires a restart? I have to restart my Mac daily because OS X starts to slow down.
More than OSX, that is a fact. For the simple fact that OSX is better designed, more powerful and more importantly runs on hardware that it is designed to run on.
More powerful? Is that why you can't even cut and paste in the Finder? Is that why I can't even play a blu-ray disc? A format thats 5 years old and mainstream everywhere and growing in popularity, yet Apple refuses to support it.
You're all happy now since you have no issues, .....yet. Does that even tell you something, that your happy you don't have problems? Think about that for a moment.
rofl. I'm happy with my new PC because it cost 1/3 what an iMac with equal CPU power did and it runs games at native 1080p at significantly higher detail settings and frame-rates than either of the current generation consoles. I'm happy because I can watch a blu-ray disc on it and get full HD audio out. I'm happy because I can actually upgrade the HDD, unlike the new iMacs:
http://www.9to5mac.com/66736/owc-choose-your-new-imac-hard-drive-wisely-you-only-get-one-shot/
And the argument that OSX is not as widespread and it's marketshare protects it is nonsense. You, don't kid youself, as it seems you already have. Like I said you're barking up the wrong tree and it seems the jokes on you.
I'd say the joke is on the person who spends $2,000 for a computer that only performs half as well as a $700 PC.
The current Mac OS must be the "holy grail" of hackers, et al. It is impossible to fathom that untold numbers of hackers simply give the Mac a free pass and leave it and its users to their own devices totally unscathed.
Which is why its always the first to fall at Pwn2Own.
Yeah and if you go to the NVIDIA.com forum, you will see loads of help posts for people who installed windows updates and had their drivers go wonky afterwards including my GeForce 9800GTX.
I've been using nvidia GPUs since 1998 and Windows 98 first edition. I used their very first "Detonator" driver. I have absolutely NEVER had any problem with a GPU (or any problem at all for that matter) caused by Windows Update. Definitely user error.
How many times a year am I supposed to reinstall the OS? Forget it. That's why I'm moving to Mac.
You're in for a shock then. OS X requires multiple annual reinstalls of the OS, sometimes after major point revisions, because it tends to slow down and become a mess.
Brilliant, why didn't I think of that?
*sigh* Along with the AVG, spyware and reg mechanic that I am looking forward to kissing good-bye is the worry that this crap is going to happen in the first place DESPITE having these programs installed.
Say hello to running Onyx regularly along with multiple reboots after the fact to get OS X "back up to speed".
And don't forget one of the many uninstaller apps you'll need, since Mac OS X has no uninstaller and deleting an app just deletes the app, not all the junk it leaves behind. You'll have to track that down manually even if you use an uninstaller app.
