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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
The question is not whether Mac would be an adequate platform for some games. Nobody wants an adequate gaming device. People want something that is clearly better than any alternative in the kind of gaming they are interested in.

I strongly disagree. Most people who like to play games just want to be able to play games. That is, they want their favorite games to be available on their computer and they want their computer to run tis game without major performance issues. Everything else is secondary. The number of people who will refuse to play a good game because they can't run it in 4K on ultra settings is almost zero. Of course, the gaming hardware marketing did a great job overemphasizing this niche group.

Consoles are a cost-effective way of playing games on a big screen.

Again, disagree. Consoles might be a cost-effective way to play some games, but console games are ridiculously expensive and the available genres are limited. If you already own a reasonable PC for home/business use, Steam is by far the most cost-effective way of playing games.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
20,392
23,894
Singapore
Gamers are hugely anti-Apple biased. Check the comments in anything Apple related on a gaming website or YouTube. It would take many years of effort on Apple’s part to break that barrier, and Apple doesn’t “get” gaming.
I have always felt that gaming was fundamentally at odds with Apple product design. It's not that Apple doesn't "get" gaming, but that supporting gaming would require compromises that Apple is simply not willing to make.

If you want a powerful GPU to power games, it requires space, lots of room for heat dissipation, and high power consumption. Which go against Apple's design principles of making their devices thinner and lighter.

What is Apple's most popular device? The iPhone. It therefore stands to reason that the ecosystem would be built around the iPhone. Which means that gaming is going to focus on smartphone usage habits (short bursts of repetitive gameplay). There are the occasional quality games there and there (Fantasian, Grimvalor, Implosion), but they are more the exception.

So success in the smartphone market means choosing not to focus on the enthusiast gamer market (so no switch from Apple), and I guess that's a sacrifice Apple is more than happy to make.
 

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
Again, disagree. Consoles might be a cost-effective way to play some games, but console games are ridiculously expensive and the available genres are limited. If you already own a reasonable PC for home/business use, Steam is by far the most cost-effective way of playing games.
Also, it depends on what devices you have to own anyway. If you have a PC or Mac for whatever purposes anyway, your additional hardware cost for gaming is effectively zero as opposed to $300-$500 for a console + their running fees for playing online. (!?!)
Thus for those who are interested in playing games on their computer, adding a bit of cost to their system in order to improve it for gaming purposes is often acceptable. Which is what spawned the graphics card market in the first place.

Apple doesn’t seem likely to offer capabilities for supplementing gaming performance once you’ve bought the system, so it would seem wise if they offered stronger graphics capabilities for some future models, particularly seeing as the GPU can be used for other processing intensive tasks. But we just don’t know their plans, and at the end of the day I doubt it makes sense for them to produce explicitly gaming centered Macs. On the other hand, I doubt that makes a lot of difference to the gaming software producers, publishers are bound to target the baseline in order to maximize their adressable market anyway.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
Also, it depends on what devices you have to own anyway. If you have a PC or Mac for whatever purposes anyway, your additional hardware cost for gaming is effectively zero as opposed to $300-$500 for a console + their running fees for playing online. (!?!)
Thus for those who are interested in playing games on their computer, adding a bit of cost to their system in order to improve it for gaming purposes is often acceptable. Which is what spawned the graphics card market in the first place.

Apple doesn’t seem likely to offer capabilities for supplementing gaming performance once you’ve bought the system, so it would seem wise if they offered stronger graphics capabilities for some future models, particularly seeing as the GPU can be used for other processing intensive tasks. But we just don’t know their plans, and at the end of the day I doubt it makes sense for them to produce explicitly gaming centered Macs. On the other hand, I doubt that makes a lot of difference to the gaming software producers, publishers are bound to target the baseline in order to maximize their adressable market anyway.


I think the problem when discussing gaming is that people tend to have very different opinion to what gaming actually means. Some are only talking about "popular" games, some are talking about games that make a lot of money, some are talking about consoles only.

In the end, gaming is about entertainment, whatever that means for your specific case. I don't think that Macs will ever replace consoles, but then again I have very little interest in consoles as such (they just don't offer any games I am interested in). In the context of the iMac, the question is whether it is powerful enough to offer a certain baseline experience on games that people would like to play on such a device. The tentative answer is "maybe" tending towards "not really". Preliminary benchmarks suggest that it's a regular old M1, which would make it "ok" for some FullHD gaming at medium settings in popular games, which is probably not quite enough for that display.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
I strongly disagree. Most people who like to play games just want to be able to play games. That is, they want their favorite games to be available on their computer and they want their computer to run tis game without major performance issues. Everything else is secondary. The number of people who will refuse to play a good game because they can't run it in 4K on ultra settings is almost zero. Of course, the gaming hardware marketing did a great job overemphasizing this niche group.
You misunderstood me. I listed reasons that make each of PC / console / mobile / Switch the best platform for some kind of gaming. What are the strengths of Mac that make it more than simply a more expensive but not as good alternative to other platforms? What is the niche where Mac is the best platform?

Developers rarely target platforms without a significant player base, and people rarely choose a platform where their favorite games are not available. Neither party is willing to take the risk and choose Mac if they don't believe Mac is going to be the best platform in some niche.
 

NotTooLate

macrumors 6502
Jun 9, 2020
444
891
You misunderstood me. I listed reasons that make each of PC / console / mobile / Switch the best platform for some kind of gaming. What are the strengths of Mac that make it more than simply a more expensive but not as good alternative to other platforms? What is the niche where Mac is the best platform?

Developers rarely target platforms without a significant player base, and people rarely choose a platform where their favorite games are not available. Neither party is willing to take the risk and choose Mac if they don't believe Mac is going to be the best platform in some niche.
It doesn't have to be the best platform , if the Mac market share will rise due to M1 or other reasons , then there will be a BIG player base (potentially) which will have good HW , usually willingness to pay money , and lack of competition for the SW developers.

Example - if Blizzard will put overwatch on the Mac natively , and it will run great , then they basically will have a lock on the FPS shooter category for MacOS users , but of course the ROI isn't to be ignored , as using your development time to port a game and support it on a different platform though updates and what not is costly and that time and man power can be used for other things.

in the ARPG for example , it looks like GGG will port POE to be natively on MacOS while Blizzard didnt say anything about D4 , which means that soon enough , every MacOS user that want to play an AAA ARPG will have one choice and its POE , lets see if its worth their time or not.
 

awsom82

macrumors regular
Mar 14, 2017
136
101
Ekaterinburg
What are the strengths of Mac that make it more than simply a more expensive but not as good alternative to other platforms? What is the niche where Mac is the best platform?
I think the big era of Mac gaming to come at the end of that year.

First, there a bunch of titles that say they release their titles on lunch day M1 natively: Total War: Warhammer III, Bioshock Remastered.

Second, yesterday rumors spread about the apple gaming console with RDNA 2 (same, as used in PS5 and Xbox), and this was mixed with Gabe Newell give some strange message.

Developers rarely target platforms without a significant player base, and people rarely choose a platform where their favorite games are not available. Neither party is willing to take the risk and choose Mac if they don't believe Mac is going to be the best platform in some niche.

Many games use Unreal Engine or Unity, and they already support Mac ARM architecture for years. So, porting a game not takes many resources.

And due to chip shortages, there no way you can now buy a console or good gaming card. But, you still can buy a Mac. The user base will be huge.

I think we see an interesting and unexpected turn in the gaming world soon.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
It doesn't have to be the best platform , if the Mac market share will rise due to M1 or other reasons , then there will be a BIG player base (potentially) which will have good HW , usually willingness to pay money , and lack of competition for the SW developers.
Will the Mac market share rise among gamers or only among non-gamers? PC gamers are such a small minority among all PC users (there are only about 120 million active Steam accounts) that the overall market share matters little.

As for the hardware, even if we ignore the GPU, the typical Mac sold today has less RAM and less SSD than the typical console. A 8 GB Mac probably can't run games designed for current-generation consoles, and the lack of storage space means people can't install the games they might want to buy. Once you go above $2k, things will get better, but the most popular models are insufficient for gaming in many ways.

And due to chip shortages, there no way you can now buy a console or good gaming card. But, you still can buy a Mac. The user base will be huge.
More people are buying consoles and gaming GPUs than ever. The main effect of the component shortage is that manufacturers can't increase production to meet the demand.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,679
You misunderstood me. I listed reasons that make each of PC / console / mobile / Switch the best platform for some kind of gaming.

Oh, I see, I am sorry.

As for the hardware, even if we ignore the GPU, the typical Mac sold today has less RAM and less SSD than the typical console. A 8 GB Mac probably can't run games designed for current-generation consoles, and the lack of storage space means people can't install the games they might want to buy. Once you go above $2k, things will get better, but the most popular models are insufficient for gaming in many ways.

That is probably not going to be too much of a hurdle. Latest generation consoles target high resolutions and most of this memory is taken by high-res assets. A Mac port of a console game will obviously use lower-resolution assets and let's also not forget that Apple Silicon supports advanced texture compression which might help to get the storage requirements even lower.

What are the strengths of Mac that make it more than simply a more expensive but not as good alternative to other platforms? What is the niche where Mac is the best platform?

I don't think that a Mac will make a better gaming platform than a dedicated, supported gaming device. So to answer your question from my perspective: there is none, if you look at gaming at main supported use case.

However, I don't see it as a fundamental problem. It's not about viability of a Mac as a dedicated gaming platform but about viability of Apple Silicon Macs as platforms that support gaming. In different words, the niche is "it's a Mac, but now you can play games on it". To put this into perspective, if you are looking to purchase, say, a laptop for a given $$$, you can usually buy either a productivity-oriented device or a gaming device. Apple's message is that with a new Mac, you don't have to choose. An M1 machine is an excellent productivity device, but it also offers gaming potential of an entry-level gaming laptop, which is sufficient for a large user base. You can't really have that with a Dell XPS or a Lenovo laptop at the same price range.


Will the Mac market share rise among gamers or only among non-gamers? PC gamers are such a small minority among all PC users (there are only about 120 million active Steam accounts) that the overall market share matters little.

I think it's going to be a little of both. There are plenty of Mac users (or users contemplating to get a Mac) who use a PC for gaming (in fact, I probably count as a PC user on steam because I often use bootcamp for games). And then, there are Mac users who don't really play games as their computer can't handle it, but would do so if more games were available.

Developers rarely target platforms without a significant player base, and people rarely choose a platform where their favorite games are not available. Neither party is willing to take the risk and choose Mac if they don't believe Mac is going to be the best platform in some niche.

That's why I think that the process will be gradual. More popular games will be released on the Mac (which is really happening) and more people will realize that they can use their Macs as a primary gaming device, which will in turn lead to more supported games etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there will be much fanfare or hype around it, an high-end gaming PCs will always be more "exiting" to the hardcore gamer group and a certain class of high-impact games will always target that high-end hardware.

As you say, fundamentally it's about economics. In the past, the customers on the Mac side with potential interest to game developers were owners of the more expensive MacBook Pros, iMacs 27" and Mac Pros, which is are a very small group. Now, with how well M1 machines are selling, that group is growing rapidly. People like to vote quote that Macs are only <10% of the PC market share, but they often forget that gaming-capable PCs are equally <20% of the market share. Looking at estimates I found on the net, there were approximately 24 million gaming laptops and 16 million gaming desktops shipped in 2020 (I don't know what their definition of "gaming" PC is, but usually it's something that has a 1050 GTX or better). Apple sold over 20 million Macs the same year, and they will sell more this year. And each one of these Macs will be basically as capable as an entry-level gaming PC. So suddenly the market share of Macs among new gaming-capable PCs goes from negligible to at least 20-30%. This is certainly more interesting to the developers, especially given the fact that supporting macOS does not have to be expensive or complicated — if you plan ahead and don't hire morons.

Second, yesterday rumors spread about the apple gaming console with RDNA 2 (same, as used in PS5 and Xbox), and this was mixed with Gabe Newell give some strange message.

Why would Apple use RDNA2 if their own GPUs deliver 2x more performance per watt?


Which is for the new Mac Pro GPUs or maybe an updated iMac 27". Don't read too much into it. Supporting Navi2 is a low-hanging fruit and likely required only minimal patches to the previously existing AMD drivers. And of course, no AMD driver exists for the Apple Silicon platform.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...gpus-based-on-the-amd-navi-rdna2-architecture

Rumors about the apple console spread from China yesterday.

Rumors are rumors. I can also post random stuff, that won't me it more credible. I can see something like Apple TV gaming edition being a thing though. But it definitely won't use AMD graphics. Also, bleh, Ubisoft...
 
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neinjohn

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2020
107
70
As you say, fundamentally it's about economics. In the past, the customers on the Mac side with potential interest to game developers were owners of the more expensive MacBook Pros, iMacs 27" and Mac Pros, which is are a very small group. Now, with how well M1 machines are selling, that group is growing rapidly. People like to vote quote that Macs are only <10% of the PC market share, but they often forget that gaming-capable PCs are equally <20% of the market share. Looking at estimates I found on the net, there were approximately 24 million gaming laptops and 16 million gaming desktops shipped in 2020 (I don't know what their definition of "gaming" PC is, but usually it's something that has a 1050 GTX or better). Apple sold over 20 million Macs the same year, and they will sell more this year. And each one of these Macs will be basically as capable as an entry-level gaming PC. So suddenly the market share of Macs among new gaming-capable PCs goes from negligible to at least 20-30%. This is certainly more interesting to the developers, especially given the fact that supporting macOS does not have to be expensive or complicated — if you plan ahead and don't hire morons.

Agree but even beyond market share and percentages it's good to see the volume and real number that are behind those %.

So Apple sold 20 million Macs on a singular year.
Cyperbunk 2077 sold between 7-8 million copies on a month after major hype.
Fifa 2020 sold about 1-2 million (all platform).
On 2015, when Blizzard last released official numbers, WoW had about 5 million active subs (and it's expected to be thereabout yet).
The whole Creative Cloud (Photoshop, Lightroom, Premiere, etc) is supposed to have about 22 million subs.

So with the very small 7%-8% share that Apple has from PC world it's more or less enough to engulf the whole paying customers of some mammoth sized enterprises and games.

IMO Apple is much better focusing efforts on trying to raise their lower bottom (Air, Pro, iMac) than doing design and hardware choices focused on competing with Nvidia and AMD on their terms.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
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19,679
IMO Apple is much better focusing efforts on trying to raise their lower bottom (Air, Pro, iMac) than doing design and hardware choices focused on competing with Nvidia and AMD on their terms.

Exactly what I am thinking as well. It makes much more sense to have reasonable guaranteed baseline and a stable development platform than to chase the already problematic high-end.
 
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JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
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I have always felt that gaming was fundamentally at odds with Apple product design. It's not that Apple doesn't "get" gaming, but that supporting gaming would require compromises that Apple is simply not willing to make.

If you want a powerful GPU to power games, it requires space, lots of room for heat dissipation, and high power consumption. Which go against Apple's design principles of making their devices thinner and lighter.

What is Apple's most popular device? The iPhone. It therefore stands to reason that the ecosystem would be built around the iPhone. Which means that gaming is going to focus on smartphone usage habits (short bursts of repetitive gameplay). There are the occasional quality games there and there (Fantasian, Grimvalor, Implosion), but they are more the exception.

So success in the smartphone market means choosing not to focus on the enthusiast gamer market (so no switch from Apple), and I guess that's a sacrifice Apple is more than happy to make.
“Gaming culture” is heavily intertwined with DIY ethic. Apple is definitely not interested in anything DIY. Every time Apple even mentions gaming it’s usually mobile-focued, where they have an unassailable lead.
 
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CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
Thing is, you don't know what Apple was referring to when they made the claim it outperforms the iMacs Vega option. For example, my MacBook Pro M1 smokes the Radeon VII based Hackintosh I used before in some FCPX scenarios. So I could claim the M1 outperforms a Radeon VII or Radeon Pro Vega 20 and it would be somehow true even though not from a Benchmarks perspective.
 
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