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There were way too many credible rumors claiming apple was hard at work trying to embed TouchID into the display, (not to mention the filed patents), but could not yield good results. That is not to say that FaceID was the last resort. Obviously FaceID was in development for a long time. I don't expect apple or in this case Federighi to come out and say we tried to do an in display touchID but could not get it to work.

False. Everything you said in your statement is entirely untrue and was debunked by Dan Riccio, (Senior VP of hardware engineering with Apple) about embedding touch ID under the display.

Dan Riccio from Apple stated the following and contradicted what you’re saying based information on the following quotes:

http://www.idownloadblog.com/2017/10/31/apple-never-worked-on-rear-inscreen-touch-id/

I heard some rumor that we couldn’t get Touch ID to work through the glass so we had to remove that. When we hit early line of sight on getting Face ID to be as good as it was, we knew that if we could be successful we could enable the product that we wanted to go off and do and if that’s true it could be something that we could burn the bridges and be all in with. This is assuming it was a better solution.


Dan Riccio said Apple “spent no time” creating a rear Touch ID sensor or one integrated into the screen itself because it decided to go all in with the Face ID system.”
 
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Unfortunately. It’s doubtful Apple will go with embedded Touch ID.
While many people want it Apple is pursuing AR and needs the 3D camera package for that
In any case, Don’t expect bug changes in the 2018 iPhones ( except for the plus size) and you won’t be disappointed
 
Can you please list the sources that work for Apple that have reinforced your “credible rumors” theory? Considering top Apple executives have gone on the record contradicting your claim, I give little credence to rumors or hearsay especially from tech sites that think they know what’s going on behind the scenes..
Folks can do their own research. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I was Simply sharing an opinion that many folks seem unable to handle and are relentless at shooting down for what ever reasons.
 
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Maybe it’s for the new Apple Watch or another product where Face ID wouldn’t work.
 
Folks can do their own research. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I was Simply sharing an opinion that many folks seem unable to handle and are relentless at shooting down for what ever reasons.
You’re entitled to your opinion but, without any supporting evidence (which you obviously don’t have) your post as it’s written has no credibility as fact. As @Relentless Power pointed out, a statement that has no truth to it.
 
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You’re entitled to your opinion but, without any supporting evidence (which you obviously don’t have) your post as it’s written has no credibility as fact. As @Relentless Power pointed out, a statement that has no truth to it.

Well, you would have a point if my opinion was presented as fact, which is was not. That was your misunderstanding, not mine. Relentless is as good as his name. And He has been on my ignore list for ages now. As you said, I am entitled to my opinion. To state I claimed my opinion as fact is dishonest and has no truth to it. You should put your axe away.
 
Any Sources for what you’re posting? Because it’s complete opposite of what Dan Riccio (VP of Hardware Engineering) stated in a direct article that Apple had no plans for Face ID on the back of the iPhone or under the display, as Face ID was always ‘Plan A.’ So how could Tim Cook ‘push’ the engineers if it was never there goal to do so in the first place with touch ID under the display?
While I agree that Apple will never go back to touchID because they would be afraid it would be seen as them admitting to making a mistake with faceID the rumors were there for a long time that they were going to integrate it into the display, and Apple would never admit that they went with plan B, they would just say that plan B was plan A all along. So there is no real way of knowing which way they originally wanted to go.
 
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You’re in for disappointment.
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Of course they’re gonna say that. They’re not going to say “we couldn’t embed it into the display so we just put Face ID.”

Yes, they probably wouldn’t say that, however that also doesn’t mean it’s not true. It is quite possible that Face ID was, in fact, their one and only plan all along. It is, in so many ways, the future - and I seriously doubt Apple would give two options even if they could. It would be doubling of the same functionality and that’s not their way - they go all in. They would either do Face ID or Touch ID behind the screen but not both. And Face ID just feels like a better thing to invest in.

I, for one, am glad they chose to focus on Face ID and do believe Touch ID was never the plan for iPhone X.
 
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Yes, they probably wouldn’t say that, however that also doesn’t mean it’s not true. It is quite possible that Face ID was, in fact, their one and only plan all along. It is, in so many ways, the future - and I seriously doubt Apple would give two options even if they could. It would be doubling of the same functionality and that’s not their way - they go all in. They would either do Face ID or Touch ID behind the screen but not both. And Face ID just feels like a better thing to invest in.

I, for one, am glad they chose to focus on Face ID and do believe Touch ID was never the plan for iPhone X.

That's like saying with Face ID, passcode entry shouldn't available as an option on iPhone X.

If you ask security experts, multi-modal biometric authentication is better as it minimizes spoofing. We've seen false positives with Face ID when relatives or siblings share an iPhone X.

The best solution is continuous multi-modal biometric authentication. Due to power requirements, this probably isn't possible with Face ID. But in-display Touch ID would allow continuous authentication as long as someone is touching or scrolling a bank app, for example.

Overall, there are more arguments for in-display Touch ID in conjunction with Face ID.

What is Apple going to say? We tried to implement in-display Touch ID but couldn't? Did they admit phablets were gaining traction when they launched iPhone 5?
 
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I doubt it and it’d be a waste anyway imho. Face ID is much better than any Touch ID ever was because it works consistently from all those that I know that have had both face and Touch ID at different points. Touch ID failed way to often and was not consistent at all for many people.

Is this is a joke? FailID is so unreliable that they have to introduce multiple faces in iOS12 because of the high miss rates.
 
That's like saying with Face ID, passcode entry shouldn't available as an option on iPhone X.


Yeah, but they are also totally different too, there is a clear difference between usage cases for both and no confusion: if you want to use the password instead of biometrics you have a good reason: either you have some very complex alphanumeric one (security) or biometrics don’t work for you for some reason. Offering two different biometric methods would create confusion for an ordinary, average consumer (which one should I use, which one is better, etc).

I know you disagree with what I wrote but I do believe this is how Apple sees it.

If you ask security experts, multi-modal biometric authentication is better as it minimizes spoofing.


That could be true, but that doesn’t change the fact that Apple thinks one good-enough solution is more convenient for users. In phones, biometrics are here for CONVENIENCE, not security (worse than a complex password, but better than nothing). Before biometrics, most users didn’t even have passwords or used basic, 4 digit ones.


The best solution is continuous multi-modal biometric authentication.

Best solution for who? Security experts and secret agents? Or the average “I want it to work with minimum effort” consumer? Personally, I just want it to offer “good enough but least effort required” security. Most users do too.

Overall, there are more arguments for in-display Touch ID in conjunction with Face ID.

I don’t doubt there are some arguments to be made for having both, but as I said, it’s not the Apple’s way. Apple will always choose what they consider the minimalist solution: the most simple one. Face ID works great for most people, so they go all in, fully dedicated, throw out everything else. This is just how they do things and have been doing it since, well, Steve returned to the company. Is it always the best approach? I don’t know, tbh, but it’s their approach and it served them well so far.
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FailID is so unreliable

Hah, you wish. Works great for a vast majority of users and is certainly more reliable than Touch ID for me.
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Hope not. Face ID is better.

Touch ID is never coming back to the iPhone, that’s almost a certainty.
 
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That could be true, but that doesn’t change the fact that Apple thinks one good-enough solution is more convenient for users. In phones, biometrics are here for CONVENIENCE, not security (worse than a complex password, but better than nothing). Before biometrics, most users didn’t even have passwords or used basic, 4 digit ones.

That would be a short term view of biometrics. With Apple Pay, Cash, Health, and Student Cards, it's clear biometrics are more than just for convenience.

Best solution for who? Security experts and secret agents? Or the average “I want it to work with minimum effort” consumer? Personally, I just want it to offer “good enough but least effort required” security. Most users do too.

Best for consumers who want to protect their data. Adding in-display Touch ID wouldn't add more effort for the consumer. It's a huge engineering effort for Apple though.

I don’t doubt there are some arguments to be made for having both, but as I said, it’s not the Apple’s way. Apple will always choose what they consider the minimalist solution: the most simple one. Face ID works great for most people, so they go all in, fully dedicated, throw out everything else. This is just how they do things and have been doing it since, well, Steve returned to the company. Is it always the best approach? I don’t know, tbh, but it’s their approach and it served them well so far.

I think if Apple were a minimalist company, they wouldn't have dual-lens cameras. They would rely on software like the Pixel 2. Ditto for dual-SIM on the iPhone and Smart Connector on the iPad. Apple does what it can to provide the best experience to its customers.
 
That would be a short term view of biometrics. With Apple Pay, Cash, Health, and Student Cards, it's clear biometrics are more than just for convenience.

No, I meant Face ID is good enough to be secure for all these things and is convenient. Adding a secondary system would make it even more secure (nothing is foolproof) but at the cost of convenience. For most people the first option is better.

You have already decided that this is wrong so no point in me saying it. But that’s how Apple sees it.

Best for consumers who want to protect their data. Adding in-display Touch ID wouldn't add more effort for the consumer. It's a huge engineering effort for Apple though.

If they added Touch ID to Face ID, people would be “why scan my face then? Why the notch?”

Vice versa: “if the phone uses my face, why do I have to put a finger on a it?”

I think if Apple were a minimalist company, they wouldn't have dual-lens cameras.

Dual cameras are one camera with two lenses. User doesn’t think about it, it’s all automatic and done by iOS. Having to use both a finger and a face for something that can be done with either of them is confusing to the average user and not the same.

The fact is: Face ID works and works well. There is no need for anything else, so I really don’t see Apple even trying anything else once they realized this worked so well. Of course, you can be all cynical about it and think they wanted something better but couldn’t do it, but that is all Apple-sucks club fantasy land.
 
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No, I meant Face ID is good enough to be secure for all these things and is convenient. Adding a secondary system would make it even more secure (nothing is foolproof) but at the cost of convenience. For most people the first option is better.

You have already decided that this is wrong so no point in me saying it. But that’s how Apple sees it.

What cost of convenience are you referring to? How does adding a second biometric option make it less convenient for users?

If they added Touch ID to Face ID, people would be “why scan my face then? Why the notch?”

Vice versa: “if the phone uses my face, why do I have to put a finger on a it?”

So that users have a choice. For increased security, use both for continuous biometric authentication. It's really not as difficult as you make it.

Dual cameras are one camera with two lenses. User doesn’t think about it, it’s all automatic and done by iOS. Having to use both a finger and a face for something that can be done with either of them is confusing to the average user and not the same.

The fact is: Face ID works and works well. There is no need for anything else, so I really don’t see Apple even trying anything else once they realized this worked so well. Of course, you can be all cynical about it and think they wanted something better but couldn’t do it, but that is all Apple-sucks club fantasy land.

This has nothing to do with cynicism. We've seen multiple Apple patent filings from as early as 2013 for in-display fingerprint authentication. In fact, Apple filed in-display fingerprint patents every year since 2013.
 
Absolutely no chance. Apple are too invested in FaceID (as it's better tech) & Apple wants to slim the screen panels down & negotiate lower cost per unit with suppliers like Samsung & not bulk them up & add tech of yesteryear to them!
 
What cost of convenience are you referring to? How does adding a second biometric option make it less convenient for users?


One uses just the face. It's simple to explain and understand - Apple never uses tech jargon like 'second biometric option'. For Face ID they used the term: "the phone recognizes your face". For Touch ID they said: "Unlock your phone by pressing the home button, like you always do - it will recognize your fingerprint".

That is so much easier to understand. But having two? How do you even market that? "The phone sees your face and scans your fingerprint and then matches the two to verify it's you"? What happens if one of these fails (and it happens)? Does the phone tell you - look, your fingerprint is fine, but move your face closer to check again. Or does it just say - nope, not you - and you have to figure out if your finger is too sweaty or you looked at the phone from a weird angle?

Nothing about that makes sense in the Apple world. It's much more a Samsung thing (not saying that as a criticism, it's just how things are).


So that users have a choice. For increased security, use both for continuous biometric authentication. It's really not as difficult as you make it.

Well, for one thing, I can tell you I moved to iOS from Android because I didn't want to make choices for simple things on my phone.

And I'm into tech - what about others? Not everyone is a tech enthusiast. Let's say I had this choice. Do I want to use one or both? Increased security you say - hm, is just using Face ID not secure enough then? If it's fine, are there any downsides to having both? So, which one should I use? .... I just want it to work. I want Apple to decide for me, I want to forget all about it.

For some people, choice is what they want. Samsung and others cater to this crowd. Apple does not do 'choice'.

As I said, this was always the Apple's way. While I do agree with their choices for the most part, what I think about them and what you think is irrelevant for this conversation. It's not about whether having this is good or bad, complicated or simple - it's about how Apple designs their products.


This has nothing to do with cynicism. We've seen multiple Apple patent filings from as early as 2013 for in-display fingerprint authentication. In fact, Apple filed in-display fingerprint patents every year since 2013.


Exactly. They file patents for everything. They probably considered it as one of the options and patended it. It was considered while brainstorming first designs of the next generation of iPhones, years ago - because they start to think about these things early. They probably have at least some ideas for next 3-4 generations of iPhones.

They considered all the options. They probably made some prototypes, you know, like parts of the assembly attached to a Mac in a lab somewhere. They had a few camera modules and some software that simulated Face ID, they had something for in-display Touch ID. These prototypes were not even close to be put into phones, but good enough to make a decision where to invest time and effort for the next 3 years. So they tried all the options, then they decided - we think this face thing is the way to go, we should start developing that.
 
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You’re entitled to your opinion but, without any supporting evidence (which you obviously don’t have) your post as it’s written has no credibility as fact. As @Relentless Power pointed out, a statement that has no truth to it.

The problem is, there are many who under “The Internet said it, so it must be true”, because Thats what they choose to believe about the Face ID myths, even when the sources themselves with the VP of Hardware engineering Dan Riccio and VP of Software engineering Craig Federighi _both_ debunked the Face ID rumors multiple times, but the internet crowd somehow seemingly does not believe the actual sources itself and they (Apple) must be lying about everything to “Hide” something. There is no convincing some others no matter how much factual information listed for sources, because they’re likely in denial or they just simply don’t understand.
 
Face ID isn't perfect, but it's a solid start and I see no reason Touch ID should be brought back. It will only improve with v2 and will likely be faster, work in landscape, and more extreme angles. As we progress in this area, it will become more and more invisible to the user - which is the ultimate goal. Physical input is not where Apple wants to go in this regard.
 
Face ID isn't perfect, but it's a solid start and I see no reason Touch ID should be brought back. It will only improve with v2 and will likely be faster, work in landscape, and more extreme angles. As we progress in this area, it will become more and more invisible to the user - which is the ultimate goal. Physical input is not where Apple wants to go in this regard.

When Touch ID was first launched they said the same thing.

Some even advocated picture password and pins over it.

When Samsung and other cheap android oem copy Face ID you will see a lot of posters eating crow.

It happened with the notch.
 
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People are in denial about many things, and certain people just do not understand what the definition of an opinion is. So much so, that they are incapable of allowing others to hold an opinion that differs from their own and must relentlessly challenge such opinions every chance they can get. These folks have axes to grind and should really take a break from the internet and try other things.

FaceID is the basket apple chose to put all their eggs into. It's not perfect, but will only get better. Both bio-metric solutions offer ease of use for the user. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Both work better in certain situations over the other, and both fail in certain situations over the other. Point being is that neither is perfect. I accept that FaceID is here to stay, and will be part of my next iPhone purchase. There is no point in my wishing for the return of TouchID. Apple is about moving forward. Yet, with the recently filed patent, we may still see TouchID used in some form. Possibly in their Apple car, or some yet to be announced tech.
 
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