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mr_roboto

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2020
856
1,866
I don’t think there is such a thing as a standard ARM system and Touchbar Macs weren’t the only Intel Macs with T2s. Obviously, Windows for ARM already boots in a hypervisor so yes that would work but it wouldn’t be bootcamp.

On the T2 Macs, Apple had to hack the Windows boot process to get it to work and Linux is still not bootable from the internal SSD. However, if someone can boot Linux from the internal drive on a M1 Mac, it should be possible to do the same on a T2.
Apple didn't hack the Windows boot process on T2 Macs. They inserted an extra layer. The following is from memory and I'm glossing over and/or forgetting lots of details, but the broad strokes should be true.

When you turn the power on, at first the x86 CPU is held in reset while the T2 chip boots (using a derivative of iOS secure boot). Once booted, it verifies the signature of an x86 EFI firmware image in the T2 Mac's boot flash, puts it in RAM, and allows the x86 CPU to start its own boot process.

From then on, the x86 runs independently, treating the T2 chip as a collection of a few I/O peripherals rather than the center of the system. The most important peripheral in the T2 is the SSD, but others include the Secure Enclave (broadly similar functionality to a TPM), something for the Touchbar, and so forth. Many of these are similar to devices in standard PCs, even though not identical (e.g. the SSD is NVMe plus Apple extensions to NVMe).

So as far as Windows is concerned, a T2 Mac is a UEFI PC with some oddball peripherals which have vendor-supplied drivers. No kernel level changes are required.

This isn't true of Windows on Arm and Apple Silicon. Actually running Windows on AS is different than providing drivers for subsystems of AS.

Also, there's a de facto standard Arm system - this is being driven both by Arm laptop PCs and the emerging Arm server market. It's based on UEFI, and assumes certain base pieces of the system such as a more or less universally adopted Arm interrupt controller IP core. (Which Apple doesnt use...)
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Apple should do more to help developers port their applications to macOS. For example, Apple could collaborate with Github, so that Github can provide CI/CD pipelines that run on ARM macOS.
GitHub is owned by Microsoft. I don’t think Apple really needs to donate development help to Microsoft. Now if Microsoft wants to pay, I’m sure Apple could find a way to accommodate them.
 
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StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
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In our company which has 10’s of thousands of office workers, I seems like more than 1/3 are using Macs. Some are devs, others are in various other office roles.
I’ve been reading about the growing number of Macs in enterprise, but I finally went off on my own a few years ago and haven’t seen it first hand (which means I also do the boring jobs for my own business on a Mac too).
 

jjcs

Cancelled
Oct 18, 2021
317
153
All the design studios, corporate in-house graphics departments, and editing bays I’ve worked in over the past 20 years would say otherwise.

Everywhere I’ve ever worked it’s either been a 100% Mac shop, or it was an in-house graphics team at a Fortune 500 with the creatives using Macs while the rest of the company was staffed by boring people doing boring jobs on boring Windows machines.
"Boring people" doing the actual work, you mean. I really don't take Apple's version of "pro" seriously at all.
 

jjcs

Cancelled
Oct 18, 2021
317
153
In companies like Facebook, Google and Amazon Macs are widely used in the software development teams. Even in some banks, software developers are using Macs.
That's nice. They're mostly doing web development at places like that. Pretty platform agnostic.
 
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StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
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"Boring people" doing the actual work, you mean. I really don't take Apple's version of "pro" seriously at all.
Great, but does your opinion matter? What’s the most important thing you ever did with a computer? Serious question.
 
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jjcs

Cancelled
Oct 18, 2021
317
153
Great, but your opinion does not matter.
Likewise.

Since you keep editing: I'm an engineer, so, yes, what I do matters (including using computers to solve rather large problems). At least if we're going to have a functioning technologically-advanced society. Art departments are luxuries.

Even the accounting departments and legal at your company matter. No product and financing, no art department.
 
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StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
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Likewise.

Since you keep editing: I'm an engineer, so, yes, what I do matters (including using computers to solve rather large problems). At least if we're going to have a functioning technologically-advanced society. Art departments are luxuries.

Even the accounting departments and legal at your company matter. No product and financing, no art department.
I am the product. My work is the billable. You are the overhead.
 

jjcs

Cancelled
Oct 18, 2021
317
153
I am the product. My work is the billable. You are the overhead.

That's hilarious. Amusingly, we don't have an "art department". It would be entirely overhead and not a justifiable expense. So, I'm the product, my work is the "billable" and you would be the overhead. See how that works?

As far as Apple being primarily "prosumer", that's apparent from their products and marketing.

Keep on looking down at people you view as "boring" for not being in some sort of "art" career path, but you'd better hope that the next aircraft or car you enter was designed by one of those "boring" people and not the art department, people in editing bays, or whatever.
 
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Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
Apple should do more to help developers port their applications to macOS. For example, Apple could collaborate with Github, so that Github can provide CI/CD pipelines that run on ARM macOS.

They could, or they could do what they are doing now, and prepping to launch their own CI/CD service that integrates with code repositories hosted by places like GitHub and others.

GitHub has their own set of Mac machines that operate as hosts for GitHub Actions. If they wanted to support ARM hosts, they just need hardware. But looking at what’s available, the M1 Mini was the only option for this sort of use for over a year. Now that the Studio is available, there’s another option, but the base model M1 Max Studio isn’t exactly any more space efficient than the Mini, so it seems more like a choice between a bunch of M1 Minis or M1 Ultra Studios.

That said, the bigger issue I’ve been running into is that macOS 12 runners still aren’t available unless you are in the beta.
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
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Frankly, the only way how I see a "native-like" Windows working is Apple implementing a bare-metal-like hypervisor that emulates a standard ARM system. The you could "boot" Windows on top of this thing. That's probably the path of the least resistance given the fact that Apple already implemented the basic functionality.

Also, there's a de facto standard Arm system - this is being driven both by Arm laptop PCs and the emerging Arm server market. It's based on UEFI, and assumes certain base pieces of the system such as a more or less universally adopted Arm interrupt controller IP core. (Which Apple doesnt use...)

The Type 1 hypervisor idea is a good one to solve the unique Apple hardware issue. A bare metal hypervisor is close enough to native that there shouldn’t be much of a performance hit. Given that the Apple silicon SoCs so outperform the standard Arm based SoCs that it likely would be completely transparent.

Unfortunately it wouldn’t solve the biggest problem which would be a Windows compatible graphics/GPU driver.

I don’t think there is such a thing as a standard ARM system and Touchbar Macs weren’t the only Intel Macs with T2s. Obviously, Windows for ARM already boots in a hypervisor so yes that would work but it wouldn’t be bootcamp.
Windows on Arm uses UEFI which is likely already a defacto standard. Apple’s hardware is completely unique compared to other Arm notebook vendors. They don't use UEFI and supporting it probably wouldn't help anyway.

I don’t know how flexible the Windows HAL (hardware abstraction layer) is but I doubt it extends to supporting things like unique interrupt controllers. I doubt Microsoft would modify their kernel to support Apple's proprietary design unless there was some guarantee from Apple that they would not change the hardware—something I doubt Apple would agree to.

The best bet for getting a Bootcamp like solution would be a bare-metal hypervisor that abstracts away all of Apple's unique design decisions. But again, without a Windows graphics driver, it's still moot.
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
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That said, the bigger issue I’ve been running into is that macOS 12 runners still aren’t available unless you are in the beta.
I haven't ever used GitHub actions, are you saying they don't support Monterey even though it has been available for 5 months? That is pretty awful support for one of the three major operating systems. It seems hard to justify given that GitHub should have Microsoft's support behind them now.
 

Xiao_Xi

macrumors 68000
Oct 27, 2021
1,628
1,101
They could, or they could do what they are doing now, and prepping to launch their own CI/CD service that integrates with code repositories hosted by places like GitHub and others.
I haven't read anything about it since Apple announced it last year. Is there any recent news about it? Do we know when it will be GA?

GitHub has their own set of Mac machines that operate as hosts for GitHub Actions.
I don't know how Github has managed to offer macOS runners. The macOS license seems to prevent it because you have to "rent" a mac for at least 24 hours.

macOS-license.png

Source: macOS Monterey license agreement https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

Is there any company that provides ARM based mac mini runners billed by the minute?
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
I haven't read anything about it since Apple announced it last year. Is there any recent news about it? Do we know when it will be GA?


I don't know how Github has managed to offer macOS runners. The macOS license seems to prevent it because you have to "rent" a mac for at least 24 hours.

View attachment 1992639
Source: macOS Monterey license agreement https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

Is there any company that provides ARM based mac mini runners billed by the minute?

Offering a CI runner is not the same as leasing a computer. It’s a service where GitHub will fetch the code and build/test it for you. No reason why these conditions would apply.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
I haven't ever used GitHub actions, are you saying they don't support Monterey even though it has been available for 5 months? That is pretty awful support for one of the three major operating systems. It seems hard to justify given that GitHub should have Microsoft's support behind them now.
Not as a runner for CI workflows in GitHub’s machine pool, no. They were talking about it shortly after WWDC, but for some reason it’s only been the last month that it got it stood up. It’s not widely available yet, and you have to sign up for some specific beta program to get access to them (something I just learned today).

It’s one reason I setup Xcode Server on a Mac Mini. Xcode 13.3 predictably started requiring macOS 12. And while you can run apps built using the new Swift concurrency features on older OS releases, unit testing Swift packages and Mac targets that use them on Big Sur doesn’t work.

To make matters more bizarre, it seems like Azure DevOps hosted agents might be built on the same images as GitHub, as the documentation for the Mac hosted agents links over to the GitHub actions docs when discussing what’s installed on the machines: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/devops/pipelines/agents/hosted?view=azure-devops&tabs=yaml

Fun.

I haven't read anything about it since Apple announced it last year. Is there any recent news about it? Do we know when it will be GA?

It’s still in active beta. At this rate, I wouldn’t expect any more news until the upcoming WWDC since its around the corner. But I am curious just how much money they are going to ask for. It does have a couple quality of life things over Xcode Server that would be interesting.

I don't know how Github has managed to offer macOS runners. The macOS license seems to prevent it because you have to "rent" a mac for at least 24 hours.

Source: macOS Monterey license agreement https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

Is there any company that provides ARM based mac mini runners billed by the minute?

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that this applies more to operations like Mac Stadium and EC2 where you are giving control of the machine over to a customer. Something Travis CI, Github, and Azure DevOps don’t do with their CI pipelines. It all gets into that area of defining a lease vs a service. I can’t imagine that Apple’s lawyers would overlook this since the release of Big Sur when the language was added, nor that GitHub/Microsoft would willfully violate the license or somehow fail to run it by their lawyers as both GitHub and Azure Dev Ops would be open to liability if there was a problem.

That said, another reason you probably don’t see much traction on the ARM side yet is because of how the M1 upended virtualization on the Mac by requiring the use of Apple’s frameworks. Anka for example finally released v3 with ARM support a couple months ago, with a beta in October of last year. Getting virtualization working on the new systems is rather important if your CI nodes are going to be shared between different customers.
 
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Xiao_Xi

macrumors 68000
Oct 27, 2021
1,628
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another reason you probably don’t see much traction on the ARM side yet is because of how the M1 upended virtualization on the Mac by requiring the use of Apple’s frameworks.
Offering a CI runner is not the same as leasing a computer. It’s a service where GitHub will fetch the code and build/test it for you. No reason why these conditions would apply.
What is the reason for no ARM-based mac mini runners: macOS licensing or lack of good virtualization software?

It’s still in active beta. At this rate, I wouldn’t expect any more news until the upcoming WWDC since its around the corner.
Apple is different from other hardware companies because it doesn't do hardware paper launches. But, Apple seems to do sometimes software paper launches.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
What is the reason for no ARM-based mac mini runners: macOS licensing or lack of good virtualization software?

My guess would be lack of priority. I doubt there is anything stopping Microsoft from buying a bunch of M1 Minis and using them as runners. They just don't.
 
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StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
1,133
2,270
That's hilarious. Amusingly, we don't have an "art department". It would be entirely overhead and not a justifiable expense. So, I'm the product, my work is the "billable" and you would be the overhead. See how that works?
If you think Macs are limited to an “art department” you are completely unaware of the world outside your bubble. There are agencies and studios in every major city where clients pay for the work the professionals create using Macs.
 

Xiao_Xi

macrumors 68000
Oct 27, 2021
1,628
1,101
My guess would be lack of priority. I doubt there is anything stopping Microsoft from buying a bunch of M1 Minis and using them as runners. They just don't.
There seems to be something preventing cloud service providers from offering a per-minute billed CI/CD service on M1-based mac minis. For instance, MacStadium and Clarity seem to have the software but only offer dedicated mac minis billed monthly. While CircleCI offers macOS runners, they appear to use Intel.

I wonder how FOSS projects like brew manage to offer their software for ARM macOS.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
Apple didn't hack the Windows boot process on T2 Macs. They inserted an extra layer. The following is from memory and I'm glossing over and/or forgetting lots of details, but the broad strokes should be true.

When you turn the power on, at first the x86 CPU is held in reset while the T2 chip boots (using a derivative of iOS secure boot). Once booted, it verifies the signature of an x86 EFI firmware image in the T2 Mac's boot flash, puts it in RAM, and allows the x86 CPU to start its own boot process.

From then on, the x86 runs independently, treating the T2 chip as a collection of a few I/O peripherals rather than the center of the system. The most important peripheral in the T2 is the SSD, but others include the Secure Enclave (broadly similar functionality to a TPM), something for the Touchbar, and so forth. Many of these are similar to devices in standard PCs, even though not identical (e.g. the SSD is NVMe plus Apple extensions to NVMe).

So as far as Windows is concerned, a T2 Mac is a UEFI PC with some oddball peripherals which have vendor-supplied drivers. No kernel level changes are required.
The OS running on the T2 (Darwin based of course) injects a driver into the Windows boot loader so it can boot from the T2 controlled SSD. I would define injecting code into another vendors boot process as hacking the boot process.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
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Not as a runner for CI workflows in GitHub’s machine pool, no. They were talking about it shortly after WWDC, but for some reason it’s only been the last month that it got it stood up. It’s not widely available yet, and you have to sign up for some specific beta program to get access to them (something I just learned today).
Azure Devops (Microsoft's home grown SLDC offering) already does provide MacOS build agents (for Intel Macs at least)so I don't see why Github could not offer ARM MacOS build agents.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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That said, another reason you probably don’t see much traction on the ARM side yet is because of how the M1 upended virtualization on the Mac by requiring the use of Apple’s frameworks. Anka for example finally released v3 with ARM support a couple months ago, with a beta in October of last year. Getting virtualization working on the new systems is rather important if your CI nodes are going to be shared between different customers.
Virtualization is certainly a weak area for M1 Macs. There are the software changes but there may also be hardware limitations relative to x64 (someone reported that nested VMs are not supported for example).
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,149
14,574
New Hampshire
If you want emulation, you can go the QEMU route. I do not know the current status of this but I've heard that some have it working though it's not polished. I saw an article in the general news yesterday about how to run Windows 11 on Apple Silicon Macs. It was Windows 11 ARM of course and there were a large number of steps to get it working though I have no doubt that it works.

My solution to running Windows is that I have a Windows desktop build. I walk over to my other desk when I want to use Windows. I could run Windows VMs on my Intel Macs but it's a lot smoother to just run it on an actual Windows system.
 
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ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
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I don’t know how flexible the Windows HAL (hardware abstraction layer) is but I doubt it extends to supporting things like unique interrupt controllers. I doubt Microsoft would modify their kernel to support Apple's proprietary design unless there was some guarantee from Apple that they would not change the hardware—something I doubt Apple would agree to.
The Windows NT kernel has been ported to multiple architectures including Dec Alpha, Power PC, Itanium and MIPS. None of those platforms are supported now of course but it does suggest that the HAL does in fact abstract the hardware.
 
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