Instead of Rosetta 2, why Apple doesn't make a Windows x86 emulator?

[TEG]

Licensing would be the biggest thing. The Windows APIs are copyrighted, and others have gotten in a lot of trouble doing it.

We just need to wait for the Microsoft/Qualcomm exclusivity agreement to expire, so Microsoft can sell Windows for ARM, then we can just use Bootcamp, for that software that is Windows only.

 

[TiggrToo]

To sell more Macs to people like me. You may not think it's important, but it is to some.

As for "undermine everything Apple stands for." Apple stands for making profit, nothing else. (as is the goal of every corporation)

Last I remember reading, the number of folk using base camp or something else to get to Windows was astonishingly small compared to those that don’t.

Pretty sure Apple chewed the numbers carefully before making their decision and decided that such functionality (if it were even possible) was not even remotely financially worth it.

 

[Born2Run]

To sell more Macs to people like me. You may not think it's important, but it is to some.

As for "undermine everything Apple stands for." Apple stands for making profit, nothing else. (as is the goal of every corporation)

How many Macs do you buy?
You're talking like they need to add a Windows emulator because you want it and you don't care what anybody else wants!

 

[BellSystem]

Apple doesn’t give a hoot about you or anyone running other operating systems on their hardware. The ONLY reason they did it prior was it put gas on their switcher campaign. The goal of that campaign was to get you 100% converted. They invested little effort and time maintaining it. They developed an emulator for their own software and that’s it. The dual boot era is over and as much as it was handy….good riddens. The whole point of the Macs existence is to run MacOS, not to be a part-time PC clone.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

To sell more Macs to people like me. You may not think it's important, but it is to some.

As for "undermine everything Apple stands for." Apple stands for making profit, nothing else. (as is the goal of every corporation)

yes but apple actually make great hardware for the profit unlike other companies like acer

 

[bobcomer]

How many Macs do you buy?

Not many, only personal ones. I started with a core-2 duo mini and I currently have 2 working.

ou're talking like they need to add a Windows emulator because you want it and you don't care what anybody else wants!

I do purchase PC's for the company I work for, and that would help if they want my business. I doubt they think it would be worth their while right now.

 

[bobcomer]

yes but apple actually make great hardware for the profit unlike other companies like acer

I disagree that Apple Hardware is actually that great -- way too many problems. I buy Mac's for home because I like the OS, not the hardware. As for making profit, that's their goal, just like Acer, but they do it in a different way. I haven't bought an Acer in quite some time though!

 

[Digitalguy]

It's still against the WoA (normal version) EULA from what I understand, and you still can't buy a retail copy of Windows on Arm.

I do use the insiders build for personal stuff, even though that too is a gray area. For the company I work for, it's way too high a risk for me to use for work, and my own sense of right and wrong forbids it as well, but I can certainly understand why others don't see quite as much gray and black as I do. I'm the type that tries to follow rules, even if I don't like them.

Besides, it's way too easy to stay legal. (Just don't use WoA for anything serious until things change) After all, I have an Intel Mac Mini (i7, 64GB RAM that serves a Windows VM for my Studio, among other server type tasks), and a Windows i9 beast of a machine that always runs Windows, and has even more RAM and ssd. I have Windows covered as long as I don't try traveling with an M1 Mac. Not to mention I have a spare Windows laptop that is a pretty nice machine as well. (Dell XPS15 with OLED screen)

I have definitely more Windows devices than Macs... But I am allergic to fan noise and currently there is no such thing as a powerful and silent Windows laptops. Some Microsoft devices are fanless but they throttle and get very hot. This summer when I'll be travelling to a hot country I am bringing a M1 Mac Mini as my main device. Last year my Windows laptops became burning hot. And I'll use Windows on it since I need some Windows software (nothing crazy, but Windows only stuff). No noise, no heat.
In general I prefer Windows to MacOS but I prefer Apple Silicon hardware.
If the M2 Macbooks are good enough (lighter than M1, no monitor limitations and 32GB RAM options), I might get one or otherwise I'll upgrade to a M2 / m2 pro Mac mini...

 

[bobcomer]

Apple doesn’t give a hoot about you or anyone running other operating systems on their hardware. The ONLY reason they did it prior was it put gas on their switcher campaign. The goal of that campaign was to get you 100% converted. They invested little effort and time maintaining it. They developed an emulator for their own software and that’s it. The dual boot era is over and as much as it was handy….good riddens. The whole point of the Macs existence is to run MacOS, not to be a part-time PC clone.

If you're talking to me I couldn't tell, might want to include a quote. If not, never mind. (and that's riddance)

As for the 100% converted, well, they are unconverting some now. We'll see if it becomes a trend. I'm not holding my breath either way.

 

[bobcomer]

I have definitely more Windows devices than Macs... But I am allergic to fan noise and currently there is no such thing as a powerful and silent Windows laptops.

??? Ever tried a Lenovo Thinkpad X1? (i7 processor). I never hear any of those, they're very quiet. They do get warm, but not hot. And they're carbon fiber shells rather than aluminum, way lighter. My Mac Studio Max is a lot louder.

 

[Juuro]

Those are just marketing...

At least a big part of it is, yes. But marketing has an effect otherwise profit oriented companies wouldn't do it. And for customer facing companies like Apple you have to take the human factor into consideration. Building a brand that stands for something helps with that.
Building a product for every need anyone could have creates a mess of products that stand for nothing and it is complicated to manage.
So picking certain categories and therefor the fights you are willing to fight as a company makes sense.

 

[Digitalguy]

??? Ever tried a Lenovo Thinkpad X1? (i7 processor). I never hear any of those, they're very quiet. They do get warm, but not hot. And they're carbon fiber shells rather than aluminum, way lighter. My Mac Studio Max is a lot louder.

I haven't but the X1 nano gen 2 is on my list of potential future purchases. I almost bought the first gen, but I am waiting to see how the second gen does (it has a 32GB RAM option, contrary to the first gen, and a more powerful chip, not the underpowered i7 of the first gen, but I want to see if the fan noise and heat get worse or not...).

 

[bobcomer]

I haven't but the X1 nano gen 2 is on my list of potential future purchases.

I haven't tried one of those yet. Looks interesting though.

The X1 Carbon is my absolute favorite traveling laptop of all time, but currently I'm using a Thinkpad X13, it's a little smaller, a little heavier, but it has an AMD Ryzen processor in it, so it's pretty fast. I got it with 32G of RAM. It's a great machine! I doubt if fan noise will be much on a Nano, the airflow design of the thinkpad X1's works pretty well.

 

[Digitalguy]

I haven't tried one of those yet. Looks interesting though.

The X1 Carbon is my absolute favorite traveling laptop of all time, but currently I'm using a Thinkpad X13, it's a little smaller, a little heavier, but it has an AMD Ryzen processor in it, so it's pretty fast. I got it with 32G of RAM. It's a great machine! I doubt if fan noise will be much on a Nano, the airflow design of the thinkpad X1's works pretty well.

They are not out yet, they were announced at CES and should be out by the end of this month. I'll be watching all the reviews. Currently I am using a Samsung notebook for on the go / travels. It's as light as it gets, 1.7 pounds. It has all the ports (USB C, A, HDMI). 500 nits brightness. But battery life is short (= I need a powerbank on the go), it's noisy, as all Samsung laptops (but at least Samsung has a silent mode, but that throttles it quite a bit) and it gets very hot in summer, especially in hot countries. I don't expect to find anything as light but the X1 nano, at around 2.1 pounds, is probably one of the closest good laptop you can get...

 

[06tb06]

Running Windows software in Mac OS would be a welcome feature.

The Best Buy store I visited to buy my first Mac literally had dozens of Windows PCs to choose from...over three quarters of the computer department was devoted to PCs of all makes and sizes.

Genius marketing on PC's part...more is always better, right? I still walked out with a MacBook Pro.

 

[Digitalguy]

The Best Buy store I visited to buy my first Mac literally had dozens of Windows PCs to choose from...over three quarters of the computer department was devoted to PCs of all makes and sizes.

Genius marketing on PC's part...more is always better, right? I still walked out with a MacBook Pro.

That's simply because Windows PCs sell much more than Macs. Main reason? A lot of them are cheaper.... And most people don't want to spend $1000 or more on a laptop. Many don't even want to spend more than $500... (but still spend more on their phones...)

 

[06tb06]

That's simply because Windows PCs sell much more than Macs. Main reason? A lot of them are cheaper.... And most people don't want to spend $1000 or more on a laptop. Many don't even want to spend more than $500... (but still spend more on their phones...)

The point I was trying to make was people generally know what they're buying. I don't buy Mac then turn around and ask why said native Windows software can't run on Mac and vise versa. If the OP wants to run Windows software then it would have been cheaper to buy PC in the first place, or buy into both (I own both, I bought a used PC for $150 on eBay.)

 

[Digitalguy]

The point I was trying to make was people generally know what they're buying. I don't buy Mac then turn around and ask why said native Windows software can't run on Mac and vise versa. If the OP wants to run Windows software then it would have been cheaper to buy PC in the first place, or buy into both (I own both, I bought a used PC for $150 on eBay.)

I own both too, but as I said above, Apple Silicon runs quiet and fast and if you have some Windows only software a solution like Parallels can make more sense than having a pc if you don't want to deal with fan noise and heat.

 

[Zdigital2015]

To sell more Macs to people like me. You may not think it's important, but it is to some.

As for "undermine everything Apple stands for." Apple stands for making profit, nothing else. (as is the goal of every corporation)

Apple wants people using iOS, iPadOS, macOS, watchOS, tvOS, et al and pull you into their ecosystem as much as anything else. Apple wants money for sure, but building that off of Windows is so low on Apple’s radar as to be below ground or on another planet.

If Apple cared about selling more Macs to people like you they would have stayed on Intel CPUs or moved to AMD or simply bought AMD back in 2014 when they could have been acquired it for a song.

Truth be told, Windows just isn’t that important to Apple anymore, regardless of its overall importance in the PC market. Selling Services and iOS devices to PC users is and that’s where the revenue is to be gained, not selling a few more Macs to people who want to run Windows on a Mac.

 

[Heartex]

I too am disappointed that my one x86 app won’t work. I downloaded Word 2007 because I like the color and layout. It is 32 bit and works fine. I have another 32 bit(x86)app that won’t. From what I have read something about if app needs a driver then it won’t load. Finally gave up and bought a 13in MacBook Pro intel 2020 on clearance from Best Buy with America Express points I had built up. Hoping one day to get the app on the M1 Max. But probably not going to happen. 13in is great for traveling so in long run probably the best options.

 

[mi7chy]

If x64 emulation performance is anything like UTM/QEMU it's horrific on MBA M1 allocating 2CPU and 8GB RAM. Much better off using something like a 13 year old Thinkpad x200.

See for yourself here but be prepared to wait a good part of a day for Windows x64 to install.

https://mac.getutm.app/

 

[Gerdi]

If x64 emulation performance is anything like UTM/QEMU it's horrific on MBA M1 allocating 2CPU and 8GB RAM. Much better off using something like a 13 year old Thinkpad x200.

See for yourself here but be prepared to wait a good part of a day for Windows x64 to install.

https://mac.getutm.app/

Nobody was ever suggesting to use UTM/QEMU to run Windows x64. Parallels/WoA is an order of magnitude faster when running x64 apps compared to QEMU and certainly much faster than running on a 13 year old Thinkpad.

In addition, i do not believe, that Microsoft is distinguishing the Windows licenses by architecture at all.

 

[progx]

But that disproves what you said. (That they want nothing to do with running Windows on a Mac) There's also the work they did when Apple was still PPC.

PowerPC and Arm might be RISC based, but they are not the same and are miles apart from each other. What Apple has done in the PowerPC alliance from the early 1990s until 2006 isn't going to work with Arm64.

 

[ian87w]

See title. Running Windows software in Mac OS would be a welcome feature.

Why?

 

[PianoPro]

I'm amazed by some of the ignorant and derogatory comments directed at people that would still like to run x86 Windows applications on an M1 Mac. What's up with all the hostility? It was wonderful for some of us that needed Windows apps to be able to run them in VM's (Fusion or Parallels) right alongside Mac apps, and exchange data between them. It saved enormous amounts of time and vastly improved my efficiency as an electronic and firmware design engineer.

Apparently some people don't understand that engineers have to use proprietary software that is ONLY written for Windows to develop products with certain components (example FPGA's). Since Day One (starting with the Mac introduction in 1984) I chose to have a Mac (because I preferred its OS for most tasks), and I had to have a PC (to run specific engineering software) on my desk. That usually involved 4-5 monitors, two keyboards, two mice, and a bunch of other peripherals to support both systems. Yes, I could have simply abandoned the Mac at any time and used only a PC, but I despised the PC OS's for any task I could do on the Mac. It was a spectacular day when Fusion was introduced and all my proprietary Windows software ran in a VM on my Mac right alongside reams of documentation and other apps in the Mac OS, and a keyboard, mouse, a couple of monitors, and a bunch of other peripherals disappeared from my desk. And the cross-OS application integration was a huge boost to my productivity.

No, I don't expect Apple to ever support x86 Windows again. Some engineers (and I'm sure other professionals with similar Windows proprietary software requirements) will switch back to Windows exclusively rather than hassle with two computers etc. on their desks ever again. And I'm sure it isn't worth Apple's engineering effort to try to change that. I certainly wouldn't if I were them. What they are doing with Apple Silicon is great and they shouldn't look back for a small subset of their users that benefited from them using Intel processors.

I stuck with my Intel Mac Pro as long as I could for that dual-OS functionality, and much longer than I wanted to. Now I'll go back to having both a Mac and a headless pseudo-PC on my desk (actually my headless Mac Pro running Windows VMs and screen-sharing to my Mac Studio so I don't need more monitors, a second keyboard, or second mouse) because I only want to use Windows when I have no choice. But doing it all on a single Mac was a wonderful feature for some of us, so I don't understand why anyone would be so hostile toward those that express how great that capability was for their requirements, or perhaps naively wish it was still something Apple would support. Educate, don't attack them.