why do you always use the wayback page, when the information is on apple.com. I find the wayback to be slower and at times, not the entire page.Session 701 slides in the Internet Archive Wayback Machine:
why do you always use the wayback page, when the information is on apple.com. I find the wayback to be slower and at times, not the entire page.Session 701 slides in the Internet Archive Wayback Machine:
you always use the wayback page
I'm not commenting on your writing style but rather the source of the information. I find thta posting a direct link does not obfuscate the discussion. With a direct link to apple its becomes more clearer which actually aides the discussion.Please, let's keep this focused on discussion of AFPS and related file systems; not on people's styles of writing.
I'm sure there's quite a bit of loose ends in the beta that need to be tied up.Seems like they forgot to change OS X to macOS in the warning
Yes, I deal with Oracle all the time, thanks to their database, Fusion applications and PeopleSoft. Its not fun by any stretch of the imagination. I agree that Apple can roll out a file system that is attuned to today's needs, for single user computing, instead of using or altering a FS that was developed for servers.ZFS has nice features, but it's a RAM hog, and most feature are irrelevant in SSD's, and for single users. Also, dealing with Oracle can be troublesome, ask Google
… Spotlight supports 4 "search levels":
- None (no searching is performed)
- FS Search (searches against file system attributes only)
- Read-only index (searches against a Spotlight index, index is not maintained for file system changes)
- Read-write index (searches against a Spotlight index, index is maintained for file system changes)
… special high-speed file system attribute searching capability … Xsan 2.0 added some basic support for searchfs(), and Xsan 2.2 expanded this support to include essentially all of the attributes that Spotlight can search against.
… perform basic Finder searches (e.g. name, modification date, etc.) even on Xsan volumes that have Spotlight indexing disabled. …
… a fully copy-on-write file system (which is a big benefit for snapshots, I'm not clear on how APFS is handling these when only filesystem metadata is mentioned as being copy-on-write). …
… whether Time Machine will backup the encrypted data with some awareness of which blocks were changed at that level, …
… if the OS itself goes into its own file-system …
$ freebsd-version ; uname -a ; beadm list
11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016
FreeBSD hpelitebook850g2-pcbsd.university.brighton.ac.uk 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016 FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016 #3 ee1d9a2(linux-drm-4.6): Wed Jun 8 16:52:23 UTC 2016 root@devastator:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64
BE Active Mountpoint Space Created Nickname
11.0-CURRENTMAY2016-up-20160531_082033 - - 47.8M 2016-05-31 08:20 20160531_082010
11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160609_161213 - - 4.2G 2016-06-09 16:10 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160609_161213
11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160609_165742 NR / 20.0G 2016-06-09 16:56 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160609_165742
11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160610_163846 - - 972.0M 2016-06-10 16:37 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160610_163846
11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160616_004107 - - 834.0M 2016-06-16 00:38 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160616_004107
11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160616_091805 - - 5.4G 2016-06-16 09:15 11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160616_091805
$ zfs list
NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT
persona_gjp4 12.5G 15.9G 10.7G /usr/home/gjp4
tank 52.9G 838G 96K none
tank/ROOT 31.1G 838G 96K none
tank/ROOT/11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160609_161213 4.12G 838G 12.1G /
tank/ROOT/11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160609_165742 20.0G 838G 14.5G /
tank/ROOT/11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160610_163846 824M 838G 13.6G /
tank/ROOT/11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160616_004107 824M 838G 14.4G /
tank/ROOT/11.0-CURRENTJUNE2016-up-20160616_091805 5.30G 838G 13.6G /
tank/ROOT/11.0-CURRENTMAY2016-up-20160531_082033 8.95M 838G 13.8G /
tank/tmp 388K 838G 388K /tmp
tank/usr 13.4G 838G 96K none
tank/usr/home 2.57G 838G 96K /usr/home
tank/usr/home/bbsadmin-l 2.56G 838G 2.56G /usr/home/bbsadmin-l
tank/usr/home/gjp4 4.16M 838G 4.16M /usr/home/gjp4
tank/usr/jails 96K 838G 96K /usr/jails
tank/usr/local 317M 838G 96K none
tank/usr/local/share 317M 838G 96K none
tank/usr/local/share/doc 317M 838G 317M /usr/local/share/doc
tank/usr/obj 96K 838G 96K /usr/obj
tank/usr/ports 10.5G 838G 10.5G /usr/ports
tank/usr/src 96K 838G 96K /usr/src
tank/var 8.37G 838G 96K none
tank/var/audit 96K 838G 96K /var/audit
tank/var/log 469M 838G 469M /var/log
tank/var/mail 8.46M 838G 8.46M /var/mail
tank/var/tmp 7.90G 838G 7.90G /var/tmp
$
… ZFS style data-integrity (block checksums) since you don't need to know what the data is to check that it is unchanged and/or self-heal it, still no sign of this though …
darkstar:~ root# fsck_apfs /dev/disk4s2s1
** Checking volume.
** Checking the container superblock.
** Checking the space manager.
** Checking the object map.
** Checking the APFS volume superblock.
** Checking the object map.
** Checking the fsroot tree.
** Checking the extent ref tree.
** Checking the snapshot metadata tree.
** Checking the snapshots.
fsck_apfs: btree: invalid btn_btree.bt_longest_val (0), given btn_btree.bt_fixed.bt_val_size
Space Verification failed.
** The volume /dev/disk4s2s1 could not be verified completely.
… Webkit, Swift, LLVM, CUPS … open sourced and worked out well. …
We need an open source filesystem. …
Seemingly, Apple plans the make the file system open source at some point, but the wording is ambiguous …
… I don’t expect APFS to be open source at this time or any other, but prove me wrong, Apple. …
Apple Proprietary File System (APFS) …
Hell, it could greatly simplify containers too if there's some way to put apps into individual file-systems yet let them see files from another (read-only) one. Could be good for security too if the entire OS file-system is made read-only with a separate location for cache folders and such.
… ZFS likes lots of memory
… I don't think features like end-to-end checksums (for assuring the correctness of one's data) are irrelevant for SSDs or single users. I don't know about you, but I highly value the integrity of my data! …
That's not a necessity. Recall that Apple ran ZFS on iPhone in 2009 when (according to Wikipedia) the 3GS had 256 MB DRAM.
+1
Imagine a mass market (of Mac users) gaining the ability to discover – with ease – corruption of data on disks that were previously apparently OK. The ire of some of those users.
It's possible for a drive to appear error-free with a check such as this –
– but an error-free check of all blocks is not a guarantee that data is free from errors.
That's not a criticism of Drive Genius. It's to emphasise the value of checksummed data.
That's not a necessity. Recall that Apple ran ZFS on iPhone in 2009 when (according to Wikipedia) the 3GS had 256 MB DRAM.
I can't imagine it.
… I had no idea ZFS ran on the old iPhones …
… data integrity checks on machines with only a single physical drive? how would you correct the data …?
… IMO as long as these features require some kind of RAID like setup, I can't see it being a high priority for Apple. …
We need an open source filesystem. exFat is unreliable (constantly screws up). 4gb files are becoming common and sharing them is becoming a pain in the ass.
Perhaps Apple should make HFS an open filesystem once thew new one is released?
There are plenty of open-source filesystems, but the problem is that neither OS X nor Windows supports them. Limitations of exFat are known, that FS is not suitable for any serious purpose.
A new filesystem is loooong overdue, bit of a shame Apple chose to reinvent the wheel rather than adopt ZFS. This was the perfect opportunity to switch to ZFS, and it looks like they're gonna blow it. Arrogance and NIH syndrome. Kinda sad, really...
[doublepost=1465917294][/doublepost]
Agreed; it's a shame that Apple didn't adopt ZFS. I don't trust my data to ANY other file system.
@Tech198 please, what can you not imagine? (There were multiple points in what you quoted.)
Adam Leventhal's blog » ZFS: Apple’s New Filesystem That Wasn’t – mentioned in his blog post, and elsewhere.
Metadata: redundancy is the norm, and may allow repairs to be automated during a routine scrub. I have a very recent example (for now, I refrain from sharing the details).
Data: the number of copies can be 1, 2 or 3. Plus snapshots, and a common sense backup routine that stores data away from the single drive. Where that common sense applies: 1 should suffice, no copies. https://duckduckgo.com/?q="ZFS+set+copies=1" leads to some pages where copies are described as ditto blocks.
If there's no recent backup, then local snapshots may include a recent, scrubbed, error-free version of the data.
It's a glaring omission – "ire to data integrity" and so on.
If you reread the sentence in full, I think it's obvious that I meant that IF data integrity relies on RAID like technologies, I can't see it being a high priority for Apple (because most of their machines/devices don't ship in a RAID capable configuration, and most consumers don't want that kind of complexity).
… I do wish you hadn't missed quoted me there at the end though.
If you reread the sentence in full, …
During the session they said apfs will be released open source when it's finished in 2017. …
… Apple's documentation
https://developer.apple.com/library...roduction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40016999 …
… They want Sierra to be the first one that future versions of APFS containers can be used on.
The session also confirmed that Apple will convert everyone to APFS sometime next year.
You can see it here: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2016/701/ …
… Please: does that mean that whilst El Capitan will gain support for APFS, Apple will not (or can not) guarantee that El Capitan will gain support for all future extensions to the file system?
I did listen …
Read it again:
...
> Compatibility
> ...
> - APFS-formatted volumes are not recognized in OS X 10.11 El Capitan and earlier.
> ...
The time capsule doesn't need to directly support APFS, given that the computer being backed up creates a disk image on the Time Capsule's disk. The internal format of the disk image is invisible to the Time Capsule and so as long as macOS continues to support backup via AFP, there should be no change needed for a Time Capsule. Alternatively, it's not difficult to imagine that Apple simply opts to make all existing Time Capsules obsolete by the time 10.13 ships. Given that a transition toward completely removing AFP is underway, this would not be particularly surprising....I don't yet know whether, or how, Time Capsule will transition to APFS
Given previous patterns, Apple will transition 10.11.x to security updates only next month when 10.12 is released. HFS+ support is very likely to remain in macOS for many years; what possible reason would lead you to believe that 10.11.x would receive APFS support? (With Apple providing written documentation as quoted above that APFS support is not in 10.11.x, the verbal statement made at WWDC regarding the lack of APFS support in 10.10.x and older must be considered an inadvertent misstatement.) The oldest computers which can run 10.12 is currently 7 years old, and will be 8 years old when 10.13 is released. Apple will never back port APFS to computers which are unable to run 10.12.10.11.x to gain support for APFS data volumes.
… if APFS goes open source…
… the computer being backed up creates a disk image …
… what possible reason would lead you to believe that 10.11.x would receive APFS support? (With Apple …
Imagine a future Time Machine server device from Apple running an operating system other than NetBSD; running an OS with native support for APFS.
What is relevant to the backup process is the communication protocol,