iPad as a laptop replacement

[sparksd]

... The only difference is the screen real estate. ...

Which is why I use my phone very little and consider the iPad as closer to my laptop.

 

[Infinitewisdom]

Now ... I'm curious ... has anyone had any success, having a secure connection from a home based Mac Pro/Mac mini/iMac + iPad/iPad Pro where the later is a window of sorts to accomplish tasks that one would WANT to do on the iPad natively yet cannot, yet achieving those tasks with a remote internet connection to their desktop Mac?

Hmm.

Oh absolutely. I just recently came back from a business trip where all I took was my iPad. In the one instance where I thought it might be easier to use MacOS, I fired up Jump Desktop and did what I had to do. The rest of the time, my iPad worked just fine. Now, granted, what I do can almost entirely be done on an iPad. YMMV.

 

[Bubble99]

Any solution that involves advancement of iPadOS to solve all the issues detailed extensively in this thread is definitely many years away, since it not only requires OS updates, but also many fundamental changes to both Apple and third party apps. (So when I say "years" I probably mean "never", the required effort is simply not worth it.)

Granted, an OS update in the near future could alleviate some of the most glaring issues, such as:

• True multiuser support (seriously, in 2022 I still need to buy an iPad for each child just so they can keep their photos, playlists and Minecraft creations segregated?)
• Basic audio routing options (for example, no phone jack audio when HDMI is connected)
• Choice of when and how to use cellular data (it is currently impossible to get an OS update without access to wifi unless some sort of network sharing trickery is used)
• Basic printing options (just the basics that have existed on every platform for the last two decades would suffice)
• The infuriating practice of the OS pausing music or podcast playback just because some other source starts playing audio, and often not even restarting playback afterwards

For the edge cases I am really not holding my breath.

What I put in bold Apple probably can fix in a year. Not in bold provably will take years.

 

[Bubble99]

Indeed.

In the end, the iPad Pro is just a big iPhone. And for some use cases, you could do things on an iPad or an iPhone that you would do on an laptop. And for those people, for basic things they might indeed not need a laptop. But that doesn’t mean that an iPad Pro is a laptop replacement.

The iPad is more similar to an iPhone than it is to a laptop in the end. You even got smartphones that can even expand into a tablet (foldable smartphones).

The iPad was not made to be laptop replacement. It was invented as media consumption device for the family not for businesses or offices.

There was no split view or slide view as it was invented to only to run one app at time not two or more.

It was Tim Cook later on copying Microsoft and Android and adding split view and slide view and a some what file manger. Also mouse , keyboard and stylus support.

What Apple is doing is modifying the Kernel the features it never had. Where MacOS is Unix OS.

Windows NT, Linux and Unix runs things really different and mostly has a IT department with system admins and using a clients and services model. And active directory and group policies with clients computers running Microsoft Office and back up on hard drives and tape back ups.

The iPadOS was never built on that model. It was not built to one more than run app at a time.

It is Tim Cook adding features every year that the roots of OS was never designed for and thus some of problems with RAM management, multitasking, processes management, file management so on.

That alone different user accounts and users.

 

[DeepIn2U]

What I put bold Apple probably can fix in a year. Not in bold provably will take years.

honestly for each child - they SHOULD have their their own iPad.
- the onis for the profile you want Apple to solve, yet it's up to the game developers to keep each app silo'd from one another via user profile. This means more data will be taken up on each iPad with mulitiple user accounts. I hope you didn't get them 64GB ipads

Choice of when and how to use cellular data:
EASY .. go into Settings > WiFi - enable apps to use wifi. Then Settings > Cellular : choose which apps to use data. very easy to isolate app to app. It's been like this since iOS 6/7 I think.

printing: that depends on your home printer setup and printer in what it supports.
I actually like the audio separation.
- calls come in I don't want music to be playing.
- listening to youtube in Safari or other browser, if I play audio message from email, iMessage or another site or app - youtube in browser SHOULD be paused. there are times this doesn't work as expected. When it fails you'll be complaining 'how to find what secondary audio source is coming from, it's infuriating'

 

[ericwn]

The iPad was not made to be laptop replacement. It was invented as media consumption device for the family not for businesses or offices.

There was no split view or slide view as it was invented to only to run one app at time not two or more.

It was Tim Cook later on copying Microsoft and Android and adding split view and slide view and a some what file manger. Also mouse , keyboard and stylus support.

What Apple is doing is modifying the Kernel the features it never had. Where MacOS is Unix OS.

Windows NT, Linux and Unix runs things really different and mostly has a IT department with system admins and using a clients and services model. And active directory and group policies with clients computers running Microsoft Office and back up on hard drives and tape back ups.

The iPadOS was never built on that model. It was not built to one more than run app at a time.

It is Tim Cook adding features every year that the roots of OS was never designed for and thus some of problems with RAM management, multitasking, processes management, file management so on.

That alone different user accounts and users.

I’m not sure that point is particularly fruitful. The original iPad was introduced with a rather vague product placement done by Jobs setting it between iPhone and Mac. But so what, things change and devices become more powerful. The iPhone as a counter example wasn’t introduced as a device that would allow third party apps -at all- and look how quickly Apple changed their mind once they understood what the device could become.

 

[Bubble99]

honestly for each child - they SHOULD have their their own iPad.
- the onis for the profile you want Apple to solve, yet it's up to the game developers to keep each app silo'd from one another via user profile. This means more data will be taken up on each iPad with mulitiple user accounts. I hope you didn't get them 64GB ipads

Well out side of the US a family is lucky to even own one computer.

So this is company wanting people to buy many iPads.

Choice of when and how to use cellular data:
EASY .. go into Settings > WiFi - enable apps to use wifi. Then Settings > Cellular : choose which apps to use data. very easy to isolate app to app. It's been like this since iOS 6/7 I think.

I think he talking about how to install updates with no internet.

printing: that depends on your home printer setup and printer in what it supports.
I actually like the audio separation.

In todays world not many print things out like in the past unless may be some business or offices.

- calls come in I don't want music to be playing.

No , when call comes in it up you to decide. Now settings for some people or imported calls could override it but calls from friends or people less priority could just give you pop up than ring tone. All this could be in the advance settings.

- listening to youtube in Safari or other browser, if I play audio message from email, iMessage or another site or app - youtube in browser SHOULD be paused. there are times this doesn't work as expected. When it fails you'll be complaining 'how to find what secondary audio source is coming from, it's infuriating'

Why can’t billion dollar company fix that windows 95 computer and android OS that does not have audio problems like iPadOS?

Why can you open up browser on say windows 95 go to youtube or a website and play sound tract than go in Microsoft office or Windows paint and the sound continues playing. But with iPadOS if you go to home screen or open other app it stops playing. Thinking you done with the app?

 

[Bubble99]

I’m not sure that point is particularly fruitful. The original iPad was introduced with a rather vague product placement done by Jobs setting it between iPhone and Mac. But so what, things change and devices become more powerful. The iPhone as a counter example wasn’t introduced as a device that would allow third party apps -at all- and look how quickly Apple changed their mind once they understood what the device could become.

But the thing is Microsoft and Android was pushing laptop replacement idea from the start.

Steve Jobs was not for this and hated idea and saying it is not tablet and not laptop the so called Microsoft surface computers.

And mouse , keyboard and stylus should not go with iPad. He also did not like idea of big phones and big tablets.

 

[Zazoh]

This discussion boils down to two polar view points.

I want to use a iPad and I'm almost there

And

I use a laptop or desktop so you can't use an iPad.

My wife, graduated college (later life student) using an iPad Pro. The battery gave out on that, and she now after graduation, uses that latest gen iPad Air as her ONLY computer.

She does a lot of crafting, Criket design, and photo manipulation. When she goes to the office, they use windows to run google Tools (All Browser based)

I use iPad for all my personal computing needs. I can even remote into my corporate job using VM Ware Horizon client, but if I do, a few times a day, the connection will crash. It is nearly there and support full screen on external monitor. (VM Ware Horizon Does)

I use Laptop, M1 air for the sole purpose of running VM Ware Horizon so my iPad doesn't crash during a conference call on Zoom.

85 % of my time in Windows through VM ware is spent using apps in Browser. A lightweight device connected through a browser is the norm for many in this age.

Again, the iPad is the "power" device for many as a personal computer. It does not work for everyone. But to say "I need a 'real computer' to do xyz, so you can't claim it as a replacement," is wrong. Many already use the iPad or even their phones as their only computer device.

 

[ericwn]

But the thing is Microsoft and Android was pushing laptop replacement idea from the start.

Steve Jobs was not for this and hated idea and saying it is not tablet and not laptop the so called Microsoft surface computers.

And mouse , keyboard and stylus should not go with iPad. He also did not like idea of big phones and big tablets.

Wether or not that was his opinion he is long gone and the device has been equipped successfully with support for trackpad, mouse, stylus, it can comfortably run two apps side by side and a third in slide over. Things change and evolve. As this discussion has shown time and time again, some have replaced their laptops with iPads. The days when it was solely a content consumption device are long gone.

 

[sparksd]

This discussion boils down to two polar view points.

I want to use a iPad and I'm almost there

And

I use a laptop or desktop so you can't use an iPad.

I don't think so at all. I and a lot of others here use laptops, desktops and iPads, just selecting the right tool for the job. I don't feel any need to replace one with the other nor would I deny others their own choices.

 

[Mahasamatman]

The vast majority of pro photographers cannot rely solely on iPad because even though some apps exist there isn’t always the capability to work with specific raw files, batch processing is missing in plenty places as well as there is no plugin architecture that pros rely on. Last I checked, digital photography wasn’t a legacy task.

Turning that statement on it's head, what about those photographers that are able to manage their photographs on an iPad Pro for whom those pro tools are an irrelevance? In my case I've not edited a photograph on anything other than an IPP since Lightroom came out which was four years ago and around the time I stopped using anything other than an IPP for my non-work tasks.

I can edit raw files from Fuji, Nikon, Canon and Olympus gear either natively or using Lightroom and Lightroom has ways of applying changes to groups of files in batches. The only thing I can't do is use plugins but that has more to do with the lack of imagination on the part of the vendors than the capabilities of iPad OS or the iPad.

I'm not picking your comment other than as a placeholder but for every person who says an iPad cannot be a computer because there is <insert name of thing> I do on a computer and I can't do it on an iPad, there are probably substantially more people that don't hit that limitation and for whom an iPad and, in some cases, an iPhone is sufficient.

 

[Bubble99]

This discussion boils down to two polar view points.

I want to use a iPad and I'm almost there

And

I use a laptop or desktop so you can't use an iPad.

My wife, graduated college (later life student) using an iPad Pro. The battery gave out on that, and she now after graduation, uses that latest gen iPad Air as her ONLY computer.

She does a lot of crafting, Criket design, and photo manipulation. When she goes to the office, they use windows to run google Tools (All Browser based)

I use iPad for all my personal computing needs. I can even remote into my corporate job using VM Ware Horizon client, but if I do, a few times a day, the connection will crash. It is nearly there and support full screen on external monitor. (VM Ware Horizon Does)

I use Laptop, M1 air for the sole purpose of running VM Ware Horizon so my iPad doesn't crash during a conference call on Zoom.

85 % of my time in Windows through VM ware is spent using apps in Browser. A lightweight device connected through a browser is the norm for many in this age.

Again, the iPad is the "power" device for many as a personal computer. It does not work for everyone. But to say "I need a 'real computer' to do xyz, so you can't claim it as a replacement," is wrong. Many already use the iPad or even their phones as their only computer device.

I think there is some confusion in this thread on what is computer and if you are a casual user or power users.

I also think there is confusion where Apple and google/ Android is greating a lock down garden.

And are you Boomer or Zoomer.

A typical Zoomer does not own movies, TV shows, ebooks and music and games and pay to consume not pay to own or download or put in some folder like Boomer normally would do.

A Zoomer picks a system be it Microsoft, Google or Apple and uses a set product where Boomers are more use to the 90s way of hunting for the software they want and will download it and install it.

A Zoomer more likely to support a garden if it can easy be done by magic by the cloud transfer and work really easy where Boomer is more questionable of set action and way or will like or want many ways. And may take two or three more steps at transferring things. A Boomer may be more scared of government and businesses. Where the Zoomer is more trusting of government and businesses.

A Zoomer are more likely to not use a file manger and may not know what a file manger is.

The act of torrent and downloading stuff is in the history books and the hay days of taping TV shows and AM and FM radio. The sound card and TV tuner card is only some thing Boomer would know now.

The act of clients and severs is in history books among the Zoomers as every thing is done by magic by the cloud in the water garden the company of Apple, Google and Microsoft are making.

For me - a ‘real’ computer, is basically a self built PC on a x86/64 platform with various OS selection that can be put on. You know. The thing that has traditionally been called a computer since the dawn of time.

Well the act of doing nerdy stuff like playing with themes, playing with system settings, system files and windows registry and installing different OS and getting under the hood of OS was never even a MacOS thing and always windows and Linux thing.

mrLucas you better of sticking with Windows or Linux if you are that type of person or switch to Android to a degree you can do most that.

I m not sure if you are catching my playful and partly sarcastic tone, but generaly partly I am serious too.

For me - a ‘real’ computer, is basically a self built PC on a x86/64 platform with various OS selection that can be put on. You know. The thing that has traditionally been called a computer since the dawn of time. a personal computer, that happens to pretty much be able to do - whatever you throw at it - from being a server - computer - diagnostic tool - tv - media conpsumtion device - gaming device - office tool…. and so on.

A ‘real computer’ is a digital device thats capable of doing everything one might want from it - thats from the digital realm.
And a regular self built PC with a various OS selection meets theese criteria completely.


So, in a way, everything that doesnt meet theese criteria is not ‘a real computer’, even thou bannaly a simple calculator is in fact a COMPUTER, since it computes. But thats not what we are talking about here.


I think, to conclude, for the purpose of this discussion, a ‘real computer’ is any device that is not LIMITING you in whatever you want to do from the digital realm.

Can the iPad allow you to watch movies, TV shows, listen to music or play games? Yes, but you cannot download it. You stuck with picking a streaming service. No naughty downloads. It not the nepstar days or torrent.

Can the iPad be a server? no, but it can connect to a server.

Can you do Photo editing and Video editing, Yes, but do not think you are going to get the desktop app. The same thing with any desktop office program like Microsoft Office or Open Office.

I don’t know what you mean by diagnostic tool? Show how much your RAM and CPU is being used up? Your network data?

 

[ericwn]

Turning that statement on it's head, what about those photographers that are able to manage their photographs on an iPad Pro for whom those pro tools are an irrelevance? In my case I've not edited a photograph on anything other than an IPP since Lightroom came out which was four years ago and around the time I stopped using anything other than an IPP for my non-work tasks.

I can edit raw files from Fuji, Nikon, Canon and Olympus gear either natively or using Lightroom and Lightroom has ways of applying changes to groups of files in batches. The only thing I can't do is use plugins but that has more to do with the lack of imagination on the part of the vendors than the capabilities of iPad OS or the iPad.

I'm not picking your comment other than as a placeholder but for every person who says an iPad cannot be a computer because there is I do on a computer and I can't do it on an iPad, there are probably substantially more people that don't hit that limitation and for whom an iPad and, in some cases, an iPhone is sufficient.

It’s great that you have a functional workflow, first of all. I didn’t want to make an absolute statement for that very reason myself - my hobby photography is partially covered as well and I don’t use much else than iPads in my private use cases either. There is also no arguing that an iPad Pro could easily offer more productivity by implementing more advanced monitor support or that a all photographers have arrived at that same point in their workflow.

I wanted to express a counter point to the sweeping statements provided by some here recently that anything that doesn’t work on iPad is a legacy case.

The missing of any sort of plug-in architecture however is certainly a limit imposed on the app developers via Apple’s terms and conditions or maybe the nature of the sandboxes apps in iOS and iPadOS, or a combination of both.

 

[Arctic Moose]

What I put in bold Apple probably can fix in a year. Not in bold provably will take years.

Choice of when and how to use cellular data is practically only a switch in the preferences and one line of logic. Excluding QA, documentation, testing and so on it would literally be a five minute job for one engineer.

I looked into the clunky multi-user support for iPads offered to schools when it was introduced a few years ago. Considering how bad this implementation is makes me believe that the iOS fork from macOS has introduced some fundamental difference making true multiuser support very difficult. If it wasn't I cannot see why Apple would have chosen the method they did for schools. Therefore I am betting on this as the one most likely to take years.

honestly for each child - they SHOULD have their their own iPad.

That is so out of touch with reality that I am not even going to attempt to comment.

- the onis for the profile you want Apple to solve, yet it's up to the game developers to keep each app silo'd from one another via user profile.

Yeah? How about e-mail? Dropbox? OneDrive? iMessage? Apple Photos? Apple Music? Browser history? All the apps that are signed in using keychain or 2FA?

Does the user need to sign out of everything after every use to maintain privacy since they cannot be sure who the next person to pick it up will be?

To do that safely you would have to reset the iPad after every use and then restore it from backup every time you wanted to use it.

This means more data will be taken up on each iPad with mulitiple user accounts.

Apps would naturally only be downloaded once, regardless of the number of accounts, just like they are on macOS.

The amount of app data would be the same regardless if it is stored in separate "home directories" or in separate profiles in each app.

What is it you see as requiring more space?

Of course the data would double if you have two users with the same amount of data compared to one, but a 128 GB iPad is much cheaper than two 64 GB, so I really fail to see how that is relevant.

Choice of when and how to use cellular data:
EASY .. go into Settings > WiFi - enable apps to use wifi. Then Settings > Cellular : choose which apps to use data. very easy to isolate app to app. It's been like this since iOS 6/7 I think.

Try again. I specifically stated OS updates.

printing: that depends on your home printer setup and printer in what it supports.

Great. What setup do I need to be able to use custom paper sizes and specific paper types?

My printer supports arbitrary paper size up to the maximum and I can choose between matte and glossy photo paper in macOS.

These two parameters are of course only the tip of the iceberg.

I actually like the audio separation.
- calls come in I don't want music to be playing.
- listening to youtube in Safari or other browser, if I play audio message from email, iMessage or another site or app - youtube in browser SHOULD be paused. there are times this doesn't work as expected.

I am happy for you.

I personally do not want my music or podcast to pause because:

• I take a quick glance at a security camera to see what is happening
• A video ad on a webpage autoplayed
• I watch a YouTube video that I do not care about the sound of, I just want to find a timecode
• I want to hear music and a podcast at the same time

I could go on and on.

When it fails you'll be complaining 'how to find what secondary audio source is coming from, it's infuriating'

I can assure you I will not, because it works exactly as expected on macOS and does not infuriate me at all.

Once again, a toggle switch in audio preferences would make everyone happy.

I want to use a iPad and I'm almost there

And

I use a laptop or desktop so you can't use an iPad.

There is also "I really love the iPad and I wish I could use it for much more than I can but in its current state it is simply not possible and that makes me sad".

Well the act of doing nerdy stuff like playing with themes, playing with system settings, system files and windows registry and installing different OS and getting under the hood of OS was never even a MacOS thing and always windows and Linux thing.

I guess you do not remember Kaleidoscope, The Grouch, SoundMaster or ResEdit.

I'll give you that I've never edited the Windows Registry on a Mac, but I have edited plenty of plist files, not to mention resource forks.

My Macs have run QNX, BeOS, every flavor of BSD and many different Linux distributions, but of course this has nothing to do with macOS, but rather only what the particular hardware is capable of running.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Well out side of the US a family is lucky to even own one computer.

So this is company wanting people to buy many iPads.


I think he talking about how to install updates with no internet.



In todays world not many print things out like in the past unless may be some business or offices.




No , when call comes in it up you to decide. Now settings for some people or imported calls could override it but calls from friends or people less priority could just give you pop up than ring tone. All this could be in the advance settings.




Why can’t billion dollar company fix that windows 95 computer and android OS that does not have audio problems like iPadOS?

Why can you open up browser on say windows 95 go to youtube or a website and play sound tract than go in Microsoft office or Windows paint and the sound continues playing. But with iPadOS if you go to home screen or open other app it stops playing. Thinking you done with the app?

you cannot install and OS update for any machine if you don't have internet. how else would you acquire the update to a USB, external drive or pop onto your computer to directly update the iPad in this scenario? Uh-huh like chicken/egg 1st - round and round you go this is dead argument.

Agreed on printing. I've still yet to ONLY print health check for covid-19 symptoms when I go into the office (standard work process), print a contract to sign (if I'm not at my Mac or iPhone soon iPad), or a resume because well business still are in the old world or its still crazy easy to markup resume with interview notes.

iPadOS is NOT a full computer OS. There is your why cannot. Again I think people are EXPECTING cause they WANT iPadOS to be a computer - fully through and through and it is not a computer OS (sure the kernel is there and capable, but the Application layer, user layer etc is not). It's like buying a VW Golf GTi and expecting cornering, acceleration, sex appeal, and top speeds of an exotic or supercar ... and still wanting to get the fuel efficiency of a GTi.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Choice of when and how to use cellular data is practically only a switch in the preferences and one line of logic. Excluding QA, documentation, testing and so on it would literally be a five minute job for one engineer.

I looked into the clunky multi-user support for iPads offered to schools when it was introduced a few years ago. Considering how bad this implementation is makes me believe that the iOS fork from macOS has introduced some fundamental difference making true multiuser support very difficult. If it wasn't I cannot see why Apple would have chosen the method they did for schools. Therefore I am betting on this as the one most likely to take years.



That is so out of touch with reality that I am not even going to attempt to comment.



Yeah? How about e-mail? Dropbox? OneDrive? iMessage? Apple Photos? Apple Music? Browser history? All the apps that are signed in using keychain or 2FA?

Does the user need to sign out of everything after every use to maintain privacy since they cannot be sure who the next person to pick it up will be?

To do that safely you would have to reset the iPad after every use and then restore it from backup every time you wanted to use it.



Apps would naturally only be downloaded once, regardless of the number of accounts, just like they are on macOS.

The amount of app data would be the same regardless if it is stored in separate "home directories" or in separate profiles in each app.

What is it you see as requiring more space?

Of course the data would double if you have two users with the same amount of data compared to one, but a 128 GB iPad is much cheaper than two 64 GB, so I really fail to see how that is relevant.



Try again. I specifically stated OS updates.



Great. What setup do I need to be able to use custom paper sizes and specific paper types?

My printer supports arbitrary paper size up to the maximum and I can choose between matte and glossy photo paper in macOS.

These two parameters are of course only the tip of the iceberg.



I am happy for you.

I personally do not want my music or podcast to pause because:

• I take a quick glance at a security camera to see what is happening
• A video ad on a webpage autoplayed
• I watch a YouTube video that I do not care about the sound of, I just want to find a timecode
• I want to hear music and a podcast at the same time

I could go on and on.


I can assure you I will not, because it works exactly as expected on macOS and does not infuriate me at all.

Once again, a toggle switch in audio preferences would make everyone happy.



There is also "I really love the iPad and I wish I could use it for much more than I can but in its current state it is simply not possible and that makes me sad".



I guess you do not remember Kaleidoscope, The Grouch, SoundMaster or ResEdit.

I'll give you that I've never edited the Windows Registry on a Mac, but I have edited plenty of plist files, not to mention resource forks.

My Macs have run QNX, BeOS, every flavor of BSD and many different Linux distributions, but of course this has nothing to do with macOS, but rather only what the particular hardware is capable of running.

First I loathe this sites quote system as I cannot quote your entries and reply in-line individually.

Yeah? How about e-mail? Dropbox? OneDrive? iMessage? Apple Photos? Apple Music? Browser history? All the apps that are signed in using keychain or 2FA?

OneDrive, Dropbox, Box - doesn't have to use 2FA they can work without. Including Mega.nz and other file share/storage apps. Apple Photos - doesn't require 2FA on iPhone/iPad or ATV.

Apple Music doesn't require 2FA on iOS/iPadOS.

Browsing history, cache, hosted site data, passwords (passwords on iOS/macOS is via secure enclave and directly in settings) are user based - specifically on linux/unix/windows/macoS ... I'm willing to bet on iOS/iPadOS should multi-user support comes this will be the case and thus increase storage space used. Remember that file system access so many people complain they want to have? This is where they dont' understand it fully.
on WindowsOS for each browser your user data is in %appdata% (except IE).
macOS that's in %library% if I'm not mistaken. More users more data/storage used. In this implementation you cannot get away from this.

Does the user need to sign out of everything after every use to maintain privacy since they cannot be sure who the next person to pick it up will be?

To do that safely you would have to reset the iPad after every use and then restore it from backup every time you wanted to use it.

Not necessarily ... file system security management could isolate each user state would be protected. Now in the event of any type of corrupt on 1 user account :
do you expect 1 user to be an administrator like a traditional computing OS?
do you expect to wipe the device fully if certain existing non-multi-user troubleshooting steps fail?
^ you need to this of this in your demand and use case scenario.

Apps would naturally only be downloaded once, regardless of the number of accounts, just like they are on macOS.

not necessarily.
- even on Windows98SE/XP/ME/2000/Vista/7/8/10 an application is installed many work for all users, However there are some if installed using an admin account does NOT propagate to other users to use or see in start menu programs+features etc to be accessible. in corporate environments this is very common and thus a temporary admin rights are granted based on the right approvals to maintain security on the entire OS to prevent network intrusions or spreading should something wrong get installed.
^ now think of how iCloud works and the wrong app gets installed. First other users are affected. Then potentially all your other devices. Right now install an iOS app if compatible and coded to also install on WatchOS or iPadOS you'll see each get the same app without installation.
Again these are coded for single user.
^ Now think what you want. Now think of Developers wanting to properly get monetized: You install 1 app but there are 3 users on that single iPad are you expecting to rip off a developers hard work and only pay them once? Nuh-uhhh they'll get you for paying it 3x. Unless Apple does something similar as an 'option' for iOS apps playable on M1 macs.

Adobe, and I believe AutoDesk has per user single licenses and heavily does true-ups to find people/business' ripping them off.

The amount of app data would be the same regardless if it is stored in separate "home directories" or in separate profiles in each app.

NO it would not. The arrangement of app data would be the same.
example:
Chrome:
User profile, bookmarks, history, site cache data, toolbar, preferences etc etc.

The CONTENT of that appdata would differ per every user - just like it is on Linux, Unix, macOS and Windows. why would you expect it to differ on a multi-user iPadOS? Explain that? Explain how your user data is NOT the same as 1 of your children on the single iPad and yet not conflict with each others data or how would it determine your data from your childrens and keeping them separate?
^ I'd love to see this reasonably explained because it's yet to work on desktop OS' heck even for Excel add-ins lots of data in windows registry to resolve when things go wrong and data is separate for every user.

What is it you see as requiring more space?

Of course the data would double if you have two users with the same amount of data compared to one, but a 128 GB iPad is much cheaper than two 64 GB, so I really fail to see how that is relevant.

I've explained exactly how more space would be required just above in this post in 2 separate instances and it's very sound. I also explained how apps could charge you per user instance.
You mentioned 2 ipads.
- some apps have family bundle purchase deals that we see on desktops. Some are available on iPadOS/iOS.
yet on multi-user on the iPads ... that could not be offered because remember each person has their own iCloud account. I'd be surprised if multi-license app purchase wouldn't change when 2 devices are involved with multiple accounts with your proposal of 1 app installed for all users (Again I'm awaiting your explanation of how that works above).
Let's say it would be cheaper with hardware and software included. I still think simply doubling the storage would help if you're just thinking apps and user space and not the associated data within those apps, documents, photos, etc etc.

FYI I vaguely remember Kaleidoscope being an app what etc I don't and the other I don't even recall I've ever heard nor seen of them. Not sure the reference here and how it's relevant to our debate, sorry.

I'll give you that I've never edited the Windows Registry on a Mac, but I have edited plenty of plist files, not to mention resource forks.

My Macs have run QNX, BeOS, every flavor of BSD and many different Linux distributions, but of course this has nothing to do with macOS, but rather only what the particular hardware is capable of running.

Awesome! So you do have a bit more experience and the understanding of OS' and how their user states work and the apps configurations and preferences etc work. This has me thinking you may have contradicted yourself (unknowingly) or just my perception when you stated :

Apps would naturally only be downloaded once, regardless of the number of accounts, just like they are on macOS.

^ which is not necessarily true on macOS ... think of VPN apps not VPN configuration within iOS. they're per user state installation and security settings to allow changes to the OS per user state something I mentioned above already on WindowsOS and on linux and unix ... also ..

The amount of app data would be the same regardless if it is stored in separate "home directories" or in separate profiles in each app.

What is it you see as requiring more space?

^ mostly that is true but not always and thus as you've mentioned plist registry etc on various computer OS' lots of differences much deeper affect user state. Sure the underlying hardware IS capable especially with M1 - if it's mostly the same on iPad Pro 2021 models but I double even iPad Pro 2nd gen running A12Z will get multi-user love should apple implement it.

we shall see what happens. Debates like this help everyone learn more, unlearn and relearn and ask more questions, see caveats of current expectations and refine them and more sound proposals to Apple to make a better change and Apple seeing the high end use cases and developers capable of implementing getting ready on all aspects not just the coding.

I rather enjoyed this thanks and cheers.

 

[Arctic Moose]

you cannot install and OS update for any machine if you don't have internet.

C-E-L-L-U-L-A-R. Remenber?

 

[DeepIn2U]

C-E-L-L-U-L-A-R. Remenber?

Cellular is voice and text.

Cellular data is still wait for it ... waaaait for it ... I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T.

Turn off cellular data and tell me without WiFi on an iOS or Bluetooth connection to Mac that sources internet (ad-hoc) you get no internet.

How you access internet is just the medium (cellular, wifi, local ad-hoc connection as a source to another device with internet connection passed through).

 

[Arctic Moose]

First I loathe this sites quote system as I cannot quote your entries and reply in-line individually.

Ok.

OneDrive, Dropbox, Box - doesn't have to use 2FA they can work without. Including Mega.nz and other file share/storage apps. Apple Photos - doesn't require 2FA on iPhone/iPad or ATV.

Apple Music doesn't require 2FA on iOS/iPadOS.

First of all, if 2FA/MFA is available, it shall be used.

Secondly, you're missing the point.

2FA is just one example of a concept that makes it difficult for several individuals to use the same account.

Bank ID is another one. Every time a user is logged out of the app (for someone else to log in) it is a multi-step process involving logging into the bank portal to reactivate it again.

Even just having to log out of someone else's Apple Music and logging into your own would be a multi-minute process just to start listening to the playlist you want.

Redownloading the Apple Photos library every time someone else logs in would be even more time-consuming.

Browsing history, cache, hosted site data, passwords (passwords on iOS/macOS is via secure enclave and directly in settings) are user based - specifically on linux/unix/windows/macoS ... I'm willing to bet on iOS/iPadOS should multi-user support comes this will be the case and thus increase storage space used. Remember that file system access so many people complain they want to have? This is where they dont' understand it fully.
on WindowsOS for each browser your user data is in %appdata% (except IE).
macOS that's in %library% if I'm not mistaken. More users more data/storage used. In this implementation you cannot get away from this.

You are failing miserably at explaining why user profiles in apps would take up less space than having everything in a user home directory. The directory structure does not claim any storage space.

Not necessarily ... file system security management could isolate each user state would be protected. Now in the event of any type of corrupt on 1 user account :
do you expect 1 user to be an administrator like a traditional computing OS?

There are already family administrators that can administrate things like downtime, allowed contacts, allowed apps and so on. This administrator could have the authority to remove individual accounts from the device as well.

How is this a problem?

do you expect to wipe the device fully if certain existing non-multi-user troubleshooting steps fail?
^ you need to this of this in your demand and use case scenario.

How is this different from wiping a failing device now?

(With the difference that you could start by removing individual user accounts first.)

- even on Windows98SE/XP/ME/2000/Vista/7/8/10 an application is installed many work for all users, However there are some if installed using an admin account does NOT propagate to other users to use or see in start menu programs+features etc to be accessible. in corporate environments this is very common and thus a temporary admin rights are granted based on the right approvals to maintain security on the entire OS to prevent network intrusions or spreading should something wrong get installed.
^ now think of how iCloud works and the wrong app gets installed. First other users are affected. Then potentially all your other devices. Right now install an iOS app if compatible and coded to also install on WatchOS or iPadOS you'll see each get the same app without installation.

This makes zero sense. It works fine on a Mac, using the Mac App Store. Multiuser on iPad would reasonably work the same way.

Of course a user can download and use apps in their own account on a traditional computer if they have permission to do so, but this is not a relevant concern on iPadOS unless perhaps if sideloading is ever allowed.

Again these are coded for single user.

Exactly my point. A single user. With multiple users on an iPad each with their own silos syncing to iCloud and other devices will never be an issue. Just like on Mac where each user is logged into their own iCloud account.

^ Now think what you want. Now think of Developers wanting to properly get monetized: You install 1 app but there are 3 users on that single iPad are you expecting to rip off a developers hard work and only pay them once? Nuh-uhhh they'll get you for paying it 3x. Unless Apple does something similar as an 'option' for iOS apps playable on M1 macs.

Family sharing is already a thing on iPadOS. My children and I already use the same apps on our individual devices logged into our individual iCloud accounts with a single subscription or app purchase.

Also, the Mac App Store already manages exactly this scenario.

Your argument concerned disk space. Even if you want to segregate usage rights one app installation can still be used by everyone, even if the rights to use (or even see) it could be restricted for users that haven't purchased it.

I could go on to argue that your proposed solution, user profiles in each app, is much worse for Apple, users and developers to manage from a payment perspective.

Adobe, and I believe AutoDesk has per user single licenses and heavily does true-ups to find people/business' ripping them off.

Once again, the Mac model works, and there is no reason it couldn't be the same on iPad.

Also, as far as Adobe is concerned, the apps are already free downloads. You pay for your account, and then log in with it to use the app.

It is the solution you are proposing, multiple people using the same user account, that opens up to abuse.

NO it would not. The arrangement of app data would be the same.
example:
Chrome:
User profile, bookmarks, history, site cache data, toolbar, preferences etc etc.

The CONTENT of that appdata would differ per every user - just like it is on Linux, Unix, macOS and Windows. why would you expect it to differ on a multi-user iPadOS? Explain that? Explain how your user data is NOT the same as 1 of your children on the single iPad and yet not conflict with each others data or how would it determine your data from your childrens and keeping them separate?
^ I'd love to see this reasonably explained because it's yet to work on desktop OS' heck even for Excel add-ins lots of data in windows registry to resolve when things go wrong and data is separate for every user.

I'll try again.

I would expect that user profiles containing the same number bookmarks, settings, photos, downloaded music, saved game states, documents and so on will take roughly the same amount of space regardless if each user has their own account or this data is saved in separate app profiles.

The difference is that app user profiles is a nightmare from a security, data integrity, privacy and appropriate content point of view.

Also, I'll reiterate that buying a single iPad with double the storage space is cheaper than buying two iPads, and also more storage-effective since apps and games will only be downloaded and stored once, not twice.

I've explained exactly how more space would be required just above in this post in 2 separate instances and it's very sound. I also explained how apps could charge you per user instance.
You mentioned 2 ipads.
- some apps have family bundle purchase deals that we see on desktops. Some are available on iPadOS/iOS.
yet on multi-user on the iPads ... that could not be offered because remember each person has their own iCloud account. I'd be surprised if multi-license app purchase wouldn't change when 2 devices are involved with multiple accounts with your proposal of 1 app installed for all users (Again I'm awaiting your explanation of how that works above).

You obviously do not understand how family sharing works, see above. (Recap: it works fine for different iCloud accounts on different iPads now, and also for different users with their own iCloud accounts on the same Mac. This is a solved problem.)

Let's say it would be cheaper with hardware and software included. I still think simply doubling the storage would help if you're just thinking apps and user space and not the associated data within those apps, documents, photos, etc etc.

Not relevant, since you do not understand family sharing.

Even if it would have worked the way you think it does many users (especially children) would be fine with the free Apple apps and Apple Arcade.

FYI I vaguely remember Kaleidoscope being an app what etc I don't and the other I don't even recall I've ever heard nor seen of them. Not sure the reference here and how it's relevant to our debate, sorry.

I was quoting someone else. See above.

Awesome! So you do have a bit more experience and the understanding of OS' and how their user states work and the apps configurations and preferences etc work. This has me thinking you may have contradicted yourself (unknowingly) or just my perception when you stated :


^ which is not necessarily true on macOS ... think of VPN apps not VPN configuration within iOS. they're per user state installation and security settings to allow changes to the OS per user state something I mentioned above already on WindowsOS and on linux and unix ... also ..

Jesus. Forget Linux and Windows for a sec and just look at the Mac App Store. This is how it would work on iPad.

^ mostly that is true but not always and thus as you've mentioned plist registry etc on various computer OS' lots of differences much deeper affect user state.

It is 100% true.

There are device-specific system-wide settings and there are user-specific settings. This is already the case on iPad, adding multiple user accounts will not change that.

Sure the underlying hardware IS capable especially with M1 - if it's mostly the same on iPad Pro 2021 models but I double even iPad Pro 2nd gen running A12Z will get multi-user love should apple implement it.

There is nothing difficult hardware-wise as far as handling of multiple accounts is concerned, and the Mac has used the same Secure Enclave as iPhones and iPads since it was introduced on Mac, and the Mac never had any issues handling multiple users.

I've still yet to ONLY print health check for covid-19 symptoms when I go into the office (standard work process), print a contract to sign (if I'm not at my Mac or iPhone soon iPad), or a resume because well business still are in the old world or its still crazy easy to markup resume with interview notes.

Yes, everyone has different needs and wants, this has been clear from the start.

iPadOS is NOT a full computer OS. There is your why cannot. Again I think people are EXPECTING cause they WANT iPadOS to be a computer - fully through and through and it is not a computer OS (sure the kernel is there and capable, but the Application layer, user layer etc is not).

Which is exactly the point I have been trying to make. If you need to use custom paper size an iPad cannot replace a laptop, even though it should be more than capable enough to handle such a task.

Cellular is voice and text.

Cellular data is still wait for it ... waaaait for it ... I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T.

Turn off cellular data and tell me without WiFi on an iOS or Bluetooth connection to Mac that sources internet (ad-hoc) you get no internet.

How you access internet is just the medium (cellular, wifi, local ad-hoc connection as a source to another device with internet connection passed through).

Hold on a sec, I need to quote myself from a few pages back.

• Choice of when and how to use cellular data (it is currently impossible to get an OS update without access to wifi unless some sort of network sharing trickery is used)

Just to be entirely clear, I can connect my Mac to cellular by sharing it from my phone with Bluetooth or USB, and then share that cellular connection to the iPad over wifi using Internet Sharing. Now I can perform the iPad software update. However, I could not perform this update using the cellular connection of the iPad itself since Apple has determined that the update is too large. I need to use this dumb workaround involving access to a Mac to update the iPad even though it is still happening through the same damn cellular plan, just obscured from the iPad.

It is an artificial limitation. I am sure it is there for good reason, but I should be trusted to be able to turn it off and be responsible for the consequences. It is necessary if I am going to use an iPad for travel and not feel I need to bring a laptop, which is my ultimate goal. (At least as far as this thread is concerned.)

 

[Bubble99]

Richard what I’m saying here is the iPad will be iPhone OS to Apple fixes the basics and none of this is power user features.

It seems google is rolling out an update today displaying more images on the google image search and the iPad with 3GB of RAN after power on yes a power on is not capable of displaying all those images. It gets mid way than reload.

If you are playing music in the background and going to many websites yes many websites and reading web sites and if such website has ad video that starts playing the music will stops playing. So you cannot listen to youtube music in the background or other music app running in the background and read the news or read websites because they may have video ad they starts playing stopping the music.

If you are listing to music in the background and you get a notification the notification sounds stops playing the music.

You cannot listen to youtube music well using note taking app, calendar app, pages, weather app, office app or check your email or run any app. You cannot even listen to youtube music and go to your home screen.

A website that has lots of pictures or videos with lots of scrolling will cause the OS to refresh the page.

None of this is problem on my 10 year old laptop running windows with only 4GB of RAM. It can keep way more things running in the background than the iPad.

The iPad was made to ONLY run one app at the time than Tim Cook took over and started adding stuff every year that the roots of the OS was not design for at all.

Like wise windows got big improvement when Microsoft said enough of windows 95,98 and windows ME and windows XP moved to windows NT with windows XP using NT.

The problem is the iPadOS was not designed to run many things in the background and has poor RAM management.

If a 10 year old laptop running windows with 4GB of RAM can do this but not new iPad with 3GB of RAM there is problems.

And I read comments on youtube of people spending well over $1000 on an iPad pros some even $1600 or more and still struggling with multitasking.

None of these things are power user features.

One user cannot do video editing in the background on the iPad pro and have note taking app up and do note taking or watch a youtube video well video editing being done in the background.

These things windows computers could do for very long time.

Like I say the problem is iPad has iPhone OS and when Tim Cook took over every year adding features the OS was not designed for.

Could Microsoft not move home users to NT and keep it like windows 95,98, windows ME and than windows 2001,2003 2204 and so on? Sure but you adding features every year that it is not design for and would be hard to do.

In 10 years from now Microsoft will not be using windows NT. And in 10 years from now Linux will have very different Kernel.

I cannot see the iPad getting better with out new Kernel.

 

[UBS28]

In the end of the day, smartphones are tablet replacements. You got foldable smartphones that can expand into a tablet.

And you got "traditional" smartphones that are almost the same size as the iPad Mini (7" vs 8" screen size).

Yet nobody is saying smartphones are laptop replacements.

 

[ericwn]

In the end of the day, smartphones are tablet replacements. You got foldable smartphones that can expand into a tablet.

And you got "traditional" smartphones that are almost the same size as the iPad Mini (7" vs 8" screen size).

Yet nobody is saying smartphones are laptop replacements.

Screen size matters to a lot of people and makes it more interesting, comfortable or productive, depending on the use case. For that reason alone tablets are a thing that is considered when replacing a laptop- many of which are similarly sized to an iPad Pro screen. Plenty people don’t consider something with an 8” screen diameter as a workhorse or any sort.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Feeding a website editor via a CMS is hardly “the world’s most advanced websites”.

I have followed Federico for a while and his use cases aren’t necessarily those of the most people either. Good for him that he gets stuff done his way but that doesn’t mean it works or is the preferred workflow for anywhere close to the majority of users.

The vast majority of pro photographers cannot rely solely on iPad because even though some apps exist there isn’t always the capability to work with specific raw files, batch processing is missing in plenty places as well as there is no plugin architecture that pros rely on. Last I checked, digital photography wasn’t a legacy task.

Logic isn’t on the iPad hence plenty recording Workflows and midi workflows are not on iPad. Last I checked, pro music recording (and no, GarageBand does not cut it) wasn’t a legacy task.

And I say that as someone who embraced iPad as a tool ever since it was available. If your use case is broad, you will run into limitations that will make you fire up a traditional Mac or PC, not because it’s cumbersome but because iPad only doesn’t cut it then. To brandmark that as legacy tasks is ignorant, at best.

Well written.

More specifically “Logic isn’t on the iPad” especially since 2021 brought M1 cpu, as all plugins for MAWs haven’t had plugins converted supporting M1 from what I’ve read across the threads here. VSTs specifically I think.

Should logic come to iPadOS that would rock. I Doge get the YouTubers name but he’s been exploring music production and creation on iPad Pro since gen 1 and with accessories he’s built a great studio around with some components being portable as well for use. He’s knowledgeable seemingly but knows the limitations.

Not too long ago laptops felt very limited for real work. Now desktop PCs seem likely the first computing device to go in this modern age:

They consume too much power,
Gaming gpu’s are getting very competitive and the laptops sooner or later will use less than 45W and give us the performance of higher end PCs from 3-5y ago.

Starting to think a desktop PC/Mac as a service May be much more cost effective - for my use caes outside of working. Needs.

 

[Bubble99]

In the end of the day, smartphones are tablet replacements. You got foldable smartphones that can expand into a tablet.

And you got "traditional" smartphones that are almost the same size as the iPad Mini (7" vs 8" screen size).

Yet nobody is saying smartphones are laptop replacements.

They are not cheep. The price is close to $2,000 and up.

Any thing Samsung has or any other companies are very expensive and still prototypes.

It will be other 4 to 6 years to the price comes way down and improves the technology.

Apple is holding of on this technology to it is ready. Well Samsung and others are releasing prototypes for the tech junkies.

The first Samsung phone was breaking when dust got in there and was being open and close too much. And people peeling the plastic of.

The second Samsung prototypes phone way better but still have a bit of crease and is very thick. Still a prototype.

This technology is way to new and unless you are rich or a tech junkie most people will not buy these expensive prototype devices from Samsung and other companies.

It is going to take time to bring the price down and make it ready for most people. This is a new thing and will take number of years to bring the price down and sort out the engineering to make it where it is just right and not a prototype.