All iPads iPads shouldn't run macOS - Stage Manager shows it clearly

[ipedro]

stage manager should work only with external monitor for the ipad , thats the only place where it shines

This is exactly as it should work. Stage Manager is terrible on a 12.9" iPad Pro, I can only imagine how bad it is on the 10.5". But I do like stage manager on my Mac. For iPad, it should be possible to have it appear only on an external display when plugged in, but not on the iPad's screen.

 

[Shirasaki]

Rene Ritchie actually posted a pretty good video about this recently.

The great thing about iPadOS is its emphasis on highly optimized single focus experiences, derived from mobile. It’s made computing accessible to the less “techie“ minded in a way that PC’s failed to for decades.

Continually trying to turn iPadOS into a task switching windowed operating system risks going down the “everything but the kitchen sink” path that has defined other tablet OS’s and made them unsuitable for the kids and grandparents in all of us.

We have a full productivity OS that’s been designed for and improved for 40 years. It’s called macOS. Let those of us who want to run it, run it. And keep iPadOS simple. It will never be macOS.

Well. I used to watch Rene Ritchie but gave up for various reasons. As such, I’ll put his argument with a grain of salt.

With that being said, if iPadOS should be simple, it should never be released as a separate OS to begin with, but thats not how it happens. By releasing iPadOS with half baked multitasking features And dumbing down macOS, Apple is slowly moving towards the direction that will possibly alienate both iPadOS users and macOS users. Truth to be told, Apple never truly deliver what user want.

We will see.

 

[Shirasaki]

This is exactly as it should work. Stage Manager is terrible on a 12.9" iPad Pro, I can only imagine how bad it is on the 10.5". But I do like stage manager on my Mac. For iPad, it should be possible to have it appear only on an external display when plugged in, but not on the iPad's screen.

Well, I benefit from having stage manager on iPad as-is, and doesn’t want to see that option going away. Slide over is insufficient after the release of iPadOS 13.1.
Make it an option but not the other extreme.
Will Apple do that though?

 

[subjonas]

Interesting scenario but not entirely based in reality. Various forms of virtualization can make the switch seamless. Literally making macOS like just another app on the iPad (it would probably be a more interesting integration than that, but that’s the gist of it). Extra RAM will make the experience better, so perhaps they reserve this for the higher RAM models.

Are there any trade offs to running macOS as an app? Performance hit, battery efficiency hit, etc.?

 

[subjonas]

Rene Ritchie actually posted a pretty good video about this recently.

The great thing about iPadOS is its emphasis on highly optimized single focus experiences, derived from mobile. It’s made computing accessible to the less “techie“ minded in a way that PC’s failed to for decades.

Continually trying to turn iPadOS into a task switching windowed operating system risks going down the “everything but the kitchen sink” path that has defined other tablet OS’s and made them unsuitable for the kids and grandparents in all of us.

We have a full productivity OS that’s been designed for and improved for 40 years. It’s called macOS. Let those of us who want to run it, run it. And keep iPadOS simple. It will never be macOS.

Great video. I agree we get too caught up in our own wants and lose perspective of what the iPad is/was supposed to be. We think if it isn’t what we want, then the iPad and Apple has failed. Very short-sighted.

Although Apple does seem kind of confused about what they’re trying to do with the iPad too, as Ritchie kind of alluded to.

 

[rkuo]

Are there any trade offs to running macOS as an app? Performance hit, battery efficiency hit, etc.?

Since both iPadOS and macOS now run on Apple Silicon natively, the overhead would be minimal. Brief googling suggests the typical hit to performance in a hypervisored environment is about 5 to 10% for the guest OS.

Regardless, no one would take this hit involuntarily.

 

[Digitalguy]

Since both iPadOS and macOS now run on Apple Silicon natively, the overhead would be minimal. Brief googling suggests the typical hit to performance in a hypervisored environment is about 5 to 10% for the guest OS.

Regardless, no one would take this hit involuntarily.

It's not just a matter of the hit to MacOS due to virtualization, it's also a matter of shared resouces. RAM and cores would be shared between the 2 OSs and, assuming the split is 50/50 both would take a 50% hit, in addition to whatever impact virtualisation has on MacOS. That wouldn't make them unusable but it would definitely have an significant impact when MacOS is running, especially on the 8GB RAM devices...
Again all this is pure theory as it's extremely unlikely...

 

[dalestrauss]

Having said that, your original statement: iPads shouldn't run macOS is probably very wrong. Apple should indeed stop bastardizing iPadOS at the behest of the hobbyist/pseudo-professional user, and just offer the option to dual boot an iPad with macOS and iPadOS, so that those who insist on turning iPad into a laptop (instead of just getting a laptop) can have at it. Of course, when running macOS, it would be required to connect a Magic Keyboard w/ Trackpad, or similar KBAM accessories, just like any Mac that doesn't have those attached. And the touch screen would be disabled. As it should be. There is even a reliable leak that says this is exactly what is coming.

You were doing great until the last three sentences. The article you quoted did not say that is what they are doing - they are getting touch "MacOS Lite" but with iPad optimized apps - even more bastardizing...

"Testing is being done with a 25% larger macOS UI so it is suitable for touch. However, apps run on the product would still be iPad-optimized versions, not macOS ones."

 

[rkuo]

It's not just a matter of the hit to MacOS due to virtualization, it's also a matter of shared resouces. RAM and cores would be shared between the 2 OSs and, assuming the split is 50/50 both would take a 50% hit, in addition to whatever impact virtualisation has on MacOS. That wouldn't make them unusable but it would definitely have an significant impact when MacOS is running, especially on the 8GB RAM devices...
Again all this is pure theory as it's extremely unlikely...

No. The operating systems share resources, they don’t halve them between each other.

 

[Digitalguy]

No. The operating systems share resources, they don’t halve them between each other.

They absolutely can. It all depends on how they are split. Sharing resourcse means splitting them... Virtualization doesn't magically create more resouces.... When you use Parallels for instance, you can choose to split in half or to allocate more the one OS (MacOS or Windows on ARM) and less to another. I think it's more than reasonable to assume that between iPadOS and MacOS, on an M1 with 8GB RAM, CPU and RAM resources would be split equally.
M1 cut in half is basically an A14/A15 with 4GB RAM. I don't think Apple would allocate less than that to iPadOS. And MacOS with these resources is already quite starved... And before you come out with some magical dynamic sharing of resources that allows the 2 systems to magically have all or most of the RAM and cores each while still operating at the same time and being used in parallel, that's not how virtualisation works....
Again, all this is pointless speculation on something that will never happen...

 

[rkuo]

They absolutely can. It all depends on how they are split. Sharing resourcse means splitting them... Virtualization doesn't magically create more resouces.... When you use Parallels for instance, you can choose to split in half or to allocate more the one OS (MacOS or Windows on ARM) and less to another. I think it's more than reasonable to assume that between iPadOS and MacOS, on an M1 with 8GB RAM, CPU and RAM resources would be split equally.
M1 cut in half is basically an A14/A15 with 4GB RAM. I don't think Apple would allocate less than that to iPadOS. And MacOS with these resources is already quite starved... And before you come out with some magical dynamic sharing of resources that allows the 2 systems to magically have all or most of the RAM and cores each while still operating at the same time and being used in parallel, that's not how virtualisation works....
Again, all this is pointless speculation on something that will never happen...

Virtually everything you just posted is wrong. Learn how it works instead of doubling down on guesses you’ve made which have no basis in fact.

 

[Rafterman]

Virtually everything you just posted is wrong. Learn how it works instead of doubling down on guesses you’ve made which have no basis in fact.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

- Luke Skywalker

 

[Digitalguy]

Virtually everything you just posted is wrong. Learn how it works instead of doubling down on guesses you’ve made which have no basis in fact.

Actually it's the opposite, but I will abstain from arguing any further given your comment. People who understand the subject will know who is wright and who is not.

 

[dgdosen]

I picked up a 2TB (and 16GB) 11" wifi M1 pro from Costco ($999!). Given how snappy UTM/Virtual Buddy is on a mac, I figured it should be close on an iPad with even more resources. I knew I might have to side-load those apps, but that's OK.

Well, I was wrong. Without jailbreaking, you need an older version of iPadOS (that didn't remove hypervisor from the kernel) or use a software emulation mode. And even that uses a ton of work arounds.

iPadOS is crippled in this respect. I'd go further to say that Apple is f*$#ing criminal in disabling hypervisor in the iPad kernel. Given so few apps can really take advantage of an M1 with 16GB on an iPad, what's the point? This limitation makes this device a bad deal, even at 47% off the list price.

It's things like this that keep my rampant fanboy-ism in deep check.

 

[Abmvk]

This is exactly as it should work. Stage Manager is terrible on a 12.9" iPad Pro, I can only imagine how bad it is on the 10.5". But I do like stage manager on my Mac. For iPad, it should be possible to have it appear only on an external display when plugged in, but not on the iPad's screen.

interesting. I don’t get really exited about StageManager on my 12.9” iPad Pro, but I do like having it more than not having it. I never use it on an external display tbh, other than on a beamer with powerpoint and then I don’t like it at all. Powerpoint was better before StageManager imho. And on the Mac I tried StageManager and couldn’t see the point at all.

So I think I exactly disagree with you 100% 😊

 

[floral]

I think macOS shouldn't be on the iPad, but for a completely different reason - in a way, iPadOS is just macOS but adapted for the iPad, with features that would be extremely difficult to use for touch control removed.

 

[darngooddesign]

I like Stage-Manager a lot and it took less than a week for me to become accustomed to using it on my 13” iPad’s screen. I fully expect it to evolve over the next couple of years just like Split-Screen did. For example, I would like a command/gesture that displays all application windows in the current stage like MacOS does; something quicker than Globe/Fn + `.

 

[JTK Awesome]

stage manager should work only with external monitor for the ipad , thats the only place where it shines

Apple should've brought SM's (supposed) automation to Spaces + Mission Control, then ported the latter to iPadOS for ext. displays.

SM is good intent but bad execution.

I enjoy using iPad, more or less as a larger size iPhone (as people mocked back in 2010) with its own quirks. But that’s about it.

Split-screen + slide-over work great for me on the iPad. I'm not sure why a tablet needs more. Leave MacOS to Macs.

 

[MacDevil7334]

I think macOS shouldn't be on the iPad, but for a completely different reason - in a way, iPadOS is just macOS but adapted for the iPad, with features that would be extremely difficult to use for touch control removed.

iPadOS is a phone OS with a few Mac features tacked on every year. It is much closer to a scaled up iOS than it is to a stripped down or adapted-for-touch macOS.

 

[Nugget]

iPadOS is just macOS but adapted for the iPad

iPadOS is a phone OS with a few Mac features tacked on every year. It is much closer to a scaled up iOS than it is to a stripped down or adapted-for-touch macOS.

It sure feels like the old RISC vs. CISC CPU arguments of yore. It started as a clear difference but then the distinctions grew smaller and less obvious each following generation. iPadOS and macOS seem on a similar trajectory, especially if we're talking about M1/M2 devices. The true differences become more superficial each OS release.

 

[floral]

iPadOS is a phone OS with a few Mac features tacked on every year. It is much closer to a scaled up iOS than it is to a stripped down or adapted-for-touch macOS.

Fair point, but I'm thinking if it slowly gets more Mac features, then by version 20 it may reach an acceptable level for professional users?

 

[darngooddesign]

iPadOS is a phone OS with a few Mac features tacked on every year. It is much closer to a scaled up iOS than it is to a stripped down or adapted-for-touch macOS.

Thats because we've seen it grow out of iOS slowly.

 

[rappr]

iPadOS is a phone OS with a few Mac features tacked on every year. It is much closer to a scaled up iOS than it is to a stripped down or adapted-for-touch macOS.

iPadOS/iOS is actually a touch based OS, not a phone OS. Both iPhone and iPad are touch based computers.

 

[Yebubbleman]

When it was introduced, I was skeptical about Stage Manager. I always thought that a classical window management system wouldn't work on a touch-based device, but I have confidence in Apple when it comes to this sort of stuff. In the end, it's been a failure.

Some people argued that this shows Apple should implement a macOS-like interface, or even macOS directly. This doesn't make any sense. Apple has adapted windows in SM so that controls (resize handle, top bar...) have the precision of a fingertip, and that they replicate the metaphors we're used to in touch-first devices (for example, dragging instead of tapping). Even then, the experience sucks.

So imagine how bad a macOS-like interface, with traffic light buttons, infinite resize and positions, etc. would be. Well, we don't even have to imagine: we have dozens of Windows 10/11 so-called tablets out there, and no one* use them as tablets.

In the end, I think the professional potential of the iPad goes in line with maximizing the iPad-like, single-window interface. There are tons of AR, illustration, video editing, etc. apps. Customers use them professionally. Some people think making the iPad a professional device means making it a subpar PC. No professional user would buy that.

Stage Manager sucks for both macOS and iPadOS. I don't disagree that iPads shouldn't run macOS. But, for an iPad to be a viable computer replacement and not just a consumption device, it needs a way better multitasking interface than what they have now. It's fine to not have more significant multi-tasking on an iPhone or even an iPad mini, both of which are generally more about consumption than productivity. But, for 10-13-inch iPads? Apple needs to decide what they want the iPad to be when it grows up.

 

[Ctrlos]

This is exactly as it should work. Stage Manager is terrible on a 12.9" iPad Pro, I can only imagine how bad it is on the 10.5". But I do like stage manager on my Mac. For iPad, it should be possible to have it appear only on an external display when plugged in, but not on the iPad's screen.

I'd be interested to know if any iPad owners actually ever use an external display.