All iPads iPads shouldn't run macOS - Stage Manager shows it clearly

[subjonas]

Quite the contrary. I use macOS 90% of the time on machines that run it, and have done so for more than 15 years.

I have to resort to the Surface Pro or Go 3 to remain productive on the road, when I don't want to take a MacBook Pro with me. Tasks such as writing, editing reports in Word, or working on Excel or Power Point files is a struggle on an iPad. Nor can I run software such as Android Studio, or VS Code etc. So, for me, the iPad Pro has not become the productive powerhouse I hoped it could be, even with another methods of multi tasking now.

I use the Surfaces, because they are robust, can be a tablet still when I want, and run a full-fat OS on them - even if that OS is not my preference. Time is money. And it's about getting a job done efficiently on the road. Some would argue just use and MB Air, but the MBA is not as robust as the Surface; the former doesn't take much to leave keyboard marks on the screen when closed and under a little pressure. On the other hand the the Surface screen is designed to have things pressing on its face. The Surface is also more convenient to flip open and hold when on site, with a keyboard that folds behind the screen. With the Air I'm holding a laptop while walking around, which isn't great.

It's not a religion, and I don't have to be bound to one OS, I just use what works most efficiently for my own situation.

The original premise of the discussion was the assertion that because there's an implementation of multitasking working offered now, that is not to everyone's liking, that there is no way macOS could ever work on an iPad. I disagree. macOS could offer a bunch of us the extra flexibility we need to run full-fat software on the go, in a convenient format, even if no effort was mad to optimise it for touch. But its a mute point anyway, as it seems very unlikely from the soundings at the WWDCs. Catalyst, SwiftUI, and Desktop Class APIs are where the convergence is heading. Not the other way. Even though the hardware would now accommodate it.

Oh ok, I didn’t see you mention macOS as an option before so I thought it was off the table for you.
I’m in a relatable situation to you in that we both need portable desktop OSes. For you, needing to hold and use your device while walking around the field. For me, needing to be able to use a pen with my work software on the go. I too had to get a Surface (Laptop Studio) for this. But I much much prefer macOS. And while I desperately wish (and have wished for many many years) that Apple would make a macOS device for us (I only want pen input though, I would actually disable touch if I could), Apple doesn’t seem too interested. It might be too niche, at least so far.

Yeah the shortcomings of Stage Manager aren’t very relevant if one only wants to run macOS on iPad only with a keyboard and trackpad (since SM was designed for touch).
It does seem Apple is uninterested either way.

 

[subjonas]

Sigh I already explained in this thread that this is not a solution, neither do I want multiple windows or any window split in the middle. I need multiple instances that each have their own fullscreen window. These windows are all part of the same instance. How is being able to open another browser window going to rock my world?

Maybe I’m dumb but I’m not following. What’s the difference between opening multiple instances of an app and opening multiple windows of an app? As the link showed, you can open multiple windows of an app like Safari in split, slide over, or full screens.

 

[subjonas]

My guy do you not know how dualbooting works?

What do you mean? Don’t you have to boot each time? What happens to what you’re working on? Don’t both OSes need to save their states to the same shared resources?

 

[rkuo]

You’re the one saying that the touchscreen should just stop working if you disconnect the mouse/keyboard. That’s a bad experience. MacOS needs to be optimized for touch only operation before Apple puts it on an Apple tablet. That means an onscreen keyboard and the ability to access things the keyboard covers at the very least. It’s never as simple as just putting an unmodified OS on a touch device. After all this time Windows still has touch related issues.

No, it doesn’t need to be optimized for touch. Pointless to optimize it for touch when all the apps are mouse/keyboard oriented anyway. Just give us a seamless way to switch between the two operating systems and we’re all good.

 

[darngooddesign]

No, it doesn’t need to be optimized for touch. Pointless to optimize it for touch when all the apps are mouse/keyboard oriented anyway. Just give us a seamless way to switch between the two operating systems and we’re all good.

Not being able to use MacOS unless you have a keyboard/trackpad/mouse hanging off is a bad experience.

Apple knows that these usability issues will result in a mountain of somethinggate hashtags and whining on MacRumors, YouTube Twitter, etc. so it's not happening until MacOS and Apple's apps ARE optimized for touch. Apple knows that neckbeards are going to spend their day looking for touch-related usability issues and just broadcast them with glee across the net, so touch-operation of MacOS will have to be as good as mouse operation. Just look at all the bitching over StageManager usability issues, which is a completely optional part of the OS, as opposed to the entire MacOS operating system.

 

[Ctrlos]

Stage Manager is a touch-centric multitasking system created by Apple in a half-a** manner to appeal people demanding more capable iPadOS, and fail horribly. People just don’t understand: iPadOS is essentially a fork from iOS, sharing most of the underline code and basic functionality. If people want a more powerful iPadOS, either bring macOS to iPad or completely rewrite iPadOS so much so that it is their own thing, giving up decades of software library and support (or add ”emulation”/virtualization).

However, merging both iPadOS and macOS cannot really happen, despite using the same underlying hardware, for one simple reason: you cannot merge iOS with macOS. It just doesn’t work well. Microsoft tried a dozen ways for about 10 years and still not quite figured out. Apple sees that and think “hmm, not a good idea”, and just PR their way every WWDC/interview/etc as they like to do. In the end, people keep getting disappointed of iPad Pro hardware going to waste, and maybe eventually relent then realise iOS can never do desktop tasks the same manner as macOS does.

I enjoy using iPad, more or less as a larger size iPhone (as people mocked back in 2010) with its own quirks. But that’s about it.

You’ve nailed it.

It seems to me is that people don’t want a touchscreen mac as much as a $499 one. The 3 levels of iPad actually scale up to the MacBook Air in terms of price and Apple knows that someone buying a $300 computer doesn’t have the same needs as someone buying a $999 computer. All the things people list a Surface can do an M1 Air can also do and they’re about the same price.

As for Stage Manager? It doesn’t work on the iPad for many reasons, not least of which is the lack of an Expose feature to see what jumble of windows you have open. You can also only see 4 ‘spaces’ on the LH-side at any one time meaning if you have 5-6 open you’re using the up-swipe multitasking view anyway.

The iPad Pro just needs some apps that actually push the hardware. iPad versions of Final Cut and Logic are way past due but given the ever increasing costs of a CC sub I would like to see all M-series iPads ship with a new version of Aperture.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

What do you mean? Don’t you have to boot each time?

Yes that's what dualbooting is. Dualbooting is just having two or more OSs installed on one computer.

What happens to what you’re working on?

Depends on the OS.

Don’t both OSes need to save their states to the same shared resources?

No they do not lmao.

So you don't know what dualbooting is. Please look up Boot Camp.

 

[Shirasaki]

Yes that's what dualbooting is. Dualbooting is just having two or more OSs installed on one computer.



Depends on the OS.



No they do not lmao.

So you don't know what dualbooting is. Please look up Boot Camp.

I believe what they want is more of a “dual-boot mode” where two OS operate in the background, and you switch between macOS and iPadOS through something, rather than the traditional “dual boot” we‘ve been used during Intel Mac days. You can think of it as iPad’s “DOS mode in Windows 95” kind of thing.

Truth to be told, the “dual boot” we know, we still use one OS at a time, not having system booted into multiple systems (on real hardware btw, not VM), and switch between them on the fly.

 

[Ludatyk]

I believe what they want is more of a “dual-boot mode” where two OS operate in the background, and you switch between macOS and iPadOS through something, rather than the traditional “dual boot” we‘ve been used during Intel Mac days. You can think of it as iPad’s “DOS mode in Windows 95” kind of thing.

Truth to be told, the “dual boot” we know, we still use one OS at a time, not having system booted into multiple systems (on real hardware btw, not VM), and switch between them on the fly.

Seems kind of odd… dual booting doesn’t exist anymore for the Apple Silicon Macs, yet… MR users desires it on the iPad.

 

[Shirasaki]

Seems kind of odd… dual booting doesn’t exist anymore for the Apple Silicon Macs, yet… MR users desires it on the iPad.

They probably want dual boot that I just describe, not simple “install two systems on the same drive and boot to one of Them depending on the need“.

 

[Ludatyk]

They probably want dual boot that I just describe, not simple “install two systems on the same drive and boot to one of Them depending on the need“.

Then we are back to Stage Manager. A feature when enabled it opens up power user features... that's why when you claim it's half baked... well, you setting the feature up as if it won't make any progress.

 

[Shirasaki]

Then we are back to Stage Manager. A feature when enabled it opens up power user features... that's why when you claim it's half baked... well, you setting the feature up as if it won't make any progress.

Stage manager merely enables iPad users to sort of control multiple windows in a limited fashion. It’s still within the confinement of iOS. I say it’s half-baked because it is not intuitive enough. And switching between apps within the same space isn’t easy either without invoking docks.

More specifically, what those people might want, is when system boots up, both iPadOS and macOS are running in the background somehow. Users can tap something to switch to macOS, enjoy using desktop applications installed on iPad. Using the same method switching back to iPadOS, users will go back and use iOS apps, losing access to their desktop applications until the next switch. Better yet, iPad boots to iPadOS by default, and then launches a seamless vm with macOS inside.

If you think stage manager as-is would serve power users need, then the best I can say is your expectation is quite different from other people‘s.

 

[Ludatyk]

Stage manager merely enables iPad users to sort of control multiple windows in a limited fashion. It’s still within the confinement of iOS. I say it’s half-baked because it is not intuitive enough. And switching between apps within the same space isn’t easy either without invoking docks.

I’m curious… what do you mean by it’s not intuitive enough? There is a side bar with recent windows that a user can access along with a dock to use as well. And there’s an option to remove the dock and recent windows... if anything Stage Manager preforms much better on an external display.

More specifically, what those people might want, is when system boots up, both iPadOS and macOS are running in the background somehow. Users can tap something to switch to macOS, enjoy using desktop applications installed on iPad. Using the same method switching back to iPadOS, users will go back and use iOS apps, losing access to their desktop applications until the next switch. Better yet, iPad boots to iPadOS by default, and then launches a seamless vm with macOS inside.

Ask yourself... would it be in Apple’s best interest to have both iPadOS and macOS on the iPad? And I’m all for virtualization… having 3rd party apps like Fusion or Parallels the ability to run Windows or macOS on the iPad and tbh that will be the road Apple will pursue.

But this idea of Apple should have macOS on an iPad seems like a fallacy… it’s like the whole iMessage should be on Android discussion.

 

[subjonas]

Depends on the OS.



No they do not lmao.

So you don't know what dualbooting is. Please look up Boot Camp.

Sorry if I annoyed you. I was just hoping you’d share a little knowledge.

 

[rkuo]

Not being able to use MacOS unless you have a keyboard/trackpad/mouse hanging off is a bad experience.

Apple knows that these usability issues will result in a mountain of somethinggate hashtags and whining on MacRumors, YouTube Twitter, etc. so it's not happening until MacOS and Apple's apps ARE optimized for touch. Apple knows that neckbeards are going to spend their day looking for touch-related usability issues and just broadcast them with glee across the net, so touch-operation of MacOS will have to be as good as mouse operation. Just look at all the bitching over StageManager usability issues, which is a completely optional part of the OS, as opposed to the entire MacOS operating system.

Don't care, doesn't matter. Don't like it, then don't use it. Doesn't make anyone's experience worse one bit. iPadOS will be there just like it always has. macOS will be for power user scenarios that essentially require mouse/keyboard and will not benefit one whit from touch.

 

[subjonas]

Don't care, doesn't matter. Don't like it, then don't use it. Doesn't make anyone's experience worse one bit. iPadOS will be there just like it always has. macOS will be for power user scenarios that essentially require mouse/keyboard and will not benefit one whit from touch.

Are we just talking about what we want individually? Or are we talking about what we think most users want? Or what would be a smart business decision for Apple/what Apple might actually do? They’re all kind of different discussions, though there is a lot of overlap of the 2nd and 3rd question.

 

[subjonas]

More specifically, what those people might want, is when system boots up, both iPadOS and macOS are running in the background somehow. Users can tap something to switch to macOS, enjoy using desktop applications installed on iPad. Using the same method switching back to iPadOS, users will go back and use iOS apps, losing access to their desktop applications until the next switch. Better yet, iPad boots to iPadOS by default, and then launches a seamless vm with macOS inside.

I don’t have a lot of technical knowledge, but wouldn't two OSes running simultaneously take up double resources as well as cause a hit on battery life? And wouldn’t there be a performance hit on macOS if running it virtually inside of iPadOS? If so, these don’t seem like options that Apple would want to do.

 

[okkibs]

What’s the difference between opening multiple instances of an app and opening multiple windows of an app?

Different instances means that common resources aren't shared, for example if I am logged into MacRumors on one Safari window and then open another window I will be logged into the website there as well. With different instances I can log into the same website with different credentials, which is part of what I need to do. Network settings are also shared, on MacOS I have one browser that uses a work VPN and the other keeps using my own internet connection. This is a mandatory setting since the work connection is very limited and can only open trusted work websites, so with an iPad the moment I am accessing such resources I can no longer connect iMessages, Facetime, search google, or even connect my home automation to turn lights on.

Other browsers at least allow switching between profiles, for example Chrome supports that. Apple does not even make this extremely basic functionality available on Safari. Additional windows are nice but having two browser windows side-by-side should really be the standard on modern expensive tablets in 2022 and I can't consider that a new feature to get excited about. iPadOS is incorporating functionality that was available in Windows 98 times, what am I supposed to say...

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

I would love if the iPad Pro could give us the option to run MacOS when connected to an external display.

 

[subjonas]

Different instances means that common resources aren't shared, for example if I am logged into MacRumors on one Safari window and then open another window I will be logged into the website there as well. With different instances I can log into the same website with different credentials, which is part of what I need to do. Network settings are also shared, on MacOS I have one browser that uses a work VPN and the other keeps using my own internet connection. This is a mandatory setting since the work connection is very limited and can only open trusted work websites, so with an iPad the moment I am accessing such resources I can no longer connect iMessages, Facetime, search google, or even connect my home automation to turn lights on.

Ok, thanks for sharing. I actually didn’t even know macOS allows signing in with different credentials simultaneously in the same browser. Whenever I sign in with one window I’m signed in with all others. How do I sign in with different credentials at the same time?

Additional windows are nice but having two browser windows side-by-side should really be the standard on modern expensive tablets in 2022 and I can't consider that a new feature to get excited about. iPadOS is incorporating functionality that was available in Windows 98 times, what am I supposed to say...

Are you talking about side by side apps? That’s been on iPad for quite a while, I think 7 years.

 

[darngooddesign]

Don't care, doesn't matter. Don't like it, then don't use it. Doesn't make anyone's experience worse one bit. iPadOS will be there just like it always has. macOS will be for power user scenarios that essentially require mouse/keyboard and will not benefit one whit from touch.

You better care about the MacOS touch experience, because if it isn't as good as keyboard/mouse operation Apple is not going to put MacOS on the iPads.

Cant wait for all the power users to discover how badly the iPad will throttle when they try to do poweruser stuff on it.

 

[rkuo]

You better care about the touch experience, because if it isn't as good as keyboard/mouse Apple is not going to do it.

Didn't realize you were in charge of the macOS on iPad division at Apple.

 

[darngooddesign]

Didn't realize you were in charge of the macOS on iPad division at Apple.

Now you know.

I'm not giving you MacOS on the iPad until it is touch-optimized becuase I don't want to read all the complaints if it isn't.

 

[Shirasaki]

I don’t have a lot of technical knowledge, but wouldn't two OSes running simultaneously take up double resources as well as cause a hit on battery life? And wouldn’t there be a performance hit on macOS if running it virtually inside of iPadOS? If so, these don’t seem like options that Apple would want to do.

Theoretically yes. But we as customer doesn’t care how Apple does that and should not need to understand the ramification of such feature request. Frankly, what I described a while ago may not even be possible under current computation model. The point is, people want macOS on iPad so they can run macOS applications, such as Xcode, because iPad and Mac are extremely similar today.

Come to think of it, I hope the similarity doesn’t get to the same level as those Plethora of 8-bit computers back in 1980s, where (almost) everyone was using 6502 but incompatible with each other.

 

[Shirasaki]

I’m curious… what do you mean by it’s not intuitive enough? There is a side bar with recent windows that a user can access along with a dock to use as well. And there’s an option to remove the dock and recent windows... if anything Stage Manager preforms much better on an external display.

These two screenshots should tell you enough on why stage Manager as-is is not sufficient.

Now, tell me what should I do to switch to WeChat, which is right underneath safari browser, without resizing window or using the dock? Only touch. Apparently those four recent apps aren’t recent enough to show WeChat which I just used a little while ago. Funny huh?
I don’t even want to mention the clunkiness of resizing window just to switch to the other app underneath that are in the same “stack” so to speak.
Unless external display stage manager behaves differently, I don’t see Any difference there.