All iPads iPads shouldn't run macOS - Stage Manager shows it clearly

[Digitalguy]

No, the law would enable apps to be put onto the iPad outside of an App Store, removing any gains for Apple and therefore nullifying this insistence that the reason Apple don't put macOS on the iPad is due to missing out on AppStore fees.

MacOS as an app (a la Sidecar but much more robust) is a great idea, but I think that a Mac will (and should) remain a necessity for this type of feature. I would rather they went down the route of a cheaper Mac Mini style (appleTV/Raspberry Pi sized) dock type thing than force macOS on tablet users, with all of the compromises/complexity it brings.

I don't agree, mobile and desktop apps are not the same thing... So it would not nullify anything. The 30% cut is not the main reason stopping desktop software houses from porting their apps to mobile, the main reason is they can't be bothered to redesign their apps to work with touch for mobile devices.
I have mentioned the idea of a dock many times on MR, and the best for factor in my optionin would be a (desktop) magic keyboard with a M-series chip and some kind of tablet stand (à la Surface Book)
But I still think it wouldn't change much, it would probably be too heavy (it would need a battery) and not seamless enough like the Magic Keyboard.
The main reason people want MacOS as an option on iPad (again noone is forcing anyone contratry to what you said), other that all the el cheapos that want to spend less money, is to be able to travel light and have cellular on the go with one device that can be both an iPad and a MacBook. Most would probably have another Mac or Windows device at home anyway... But if you add too much bulk or if the device is complicated to use or needs to be plugged it, it just defeats the purpose....

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It's simple. If people are of the belief that Apple should put macOS on an iPad... I ask those people what's the purpose of the Mac then?

It's cheaper and has more ports, while the non-Macbook Air devices also have proper heatsinks. macOS on the iPad would make it a jack of all trades computer, where you could use it in iPad mode or when plugged into a keyboard and mouse in Mac Mode. Same argument we've had years ago about the iPhone vs iPod Touch before the iPhone became cheaper. Next.

I enjoy the iPad for what it is... i do not want macOS on the iPad, why is that so hard to understand.

No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to use macOS. If macOS mode was added to the iPad, you can just choose not to use it. iPadOS would still exist and be the default, while those who want a macOS mode can be happy.

If users prefer macOS then there is the MBA and MBP to use... why sacrifice the iPad for the sake of having an operating system that already exist on another product? I just don't understand.

Except it's not sacrificing anything because again macOS mode would be optional and not installed by default, and you'd still be able to switch back to iPadOS if it was installed.

I've yet to see any compelling argument to why macOS mode can't and shouldn't be on the iPad. There's nothing wrong with having a macOS Mode on the iPad. It's just a net positive. Hell it would encourage people to actually buy iPad Pros.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Easy call for me. Surface has full-up Office that I need, great multi-tasking support, support for USB devices (e.g., DVD read/write) that I need, full-up Lightroom and Photoshop, a fully capable photo DAM working with my NAS, etc. The iPad, on the other hand, has capabilities that I like but don't have a driving need for.

I tried this (had a SP7) and decided that the MBA M1 + iPad Pro 12.9" was better for me. I couldn't find good Windows equivalents for a lot of my apps. Devonthink for instance, and Vellum.

In the end having two devices is fine, and works pretty well for me.

I just couldn't get past the limited battery and apps that just aren't quite working for tablet usage well. But we have to find what works....

 

[cupcakes2000]

You can install Windows and Linux on Mac, two OSs not optimized for the Apple chips. It's an operating system. On the surface it's still an iPad. The Surface tablets are still Surfaces even if they didn't have Windows on them.

It's not even slightly the same. Windows and Linux are already optimised to run using a mouse and a keyboard. Putting macOS onto a device optimised for touch would make macOS unoptimised for the device. Of course, the optimised version of macOS is already available for the device. It's called iPadOS.

 

[JamesTheMac]

I take it you don’t like macOS either? Or do you need the Surface for the pen?

Quite the contrary. I use macOS 90% of the time on machines that run it, and have done so for more than 15 years.

I have to resort to the Surface Pro or Go 3 to remain productive on the road, when I don't want to take a MacBook Pro with me. Tasks such as writing, editing reports in Word, or working on Excel or Power Point files is a struggle on an iPad. Nor can I run software such as Android Studio, or VS Code etc. So, for me, the iPad Pro has not become the productive powerhouse I hoped it could be, even with another methods of multi tasking now.

I use the Surfaces, because they are robust, can be a tablet still when I want, and run a full-fat OS on them - even if that OS is not my preference. Time is money. And it's about getting a job done efficiently on the road. Some would argue just use and MB Air, but the MBA is not as robust as the Surface; the former doesn't take much to leave keyboard marks on the screen when closed and under a little pressure. On the other hand the the Surface screen is designed to have things pressing on its face. The Surface is also more convenient to flip open and hold when on site, with a keyboard that folds behind the screen. With the Air I'm holding a laptop while walking around, which isn't great.

It's not a religion, and I don't have to be bound to one OS, I just use what works most efficiently for my own situation.

The original premise of the discussion was the assertion that because there's an implementation of multitasking working offered now, that is not to everyone's liking, that there is no way macOS could ever work on an iPad. I disagree. macOS could offer a bunch of us the extra flexibility we need to run full-fat software on the go, in a convenient format, even if no effort was mad to optimise it for touch. But its a mute point anyway, as it seems very unlikely from the soundings at the WWDCs. Catalyst, SwiftUI, and Desktop Class APIs are where the convergence is heading. Not the other way. Even though the hardware would now accommodate it.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

It's cheaper and has more ports, while the non-Macbook Air devices also have proper heatsinks. macOS on the iPad would make it a jack of all trades computer, where you could use it in iPad mode or when plugged into a keyboard and mouse in Mac Mode. Next.



No one is holding a gun to your head telling you to use macOS. If macOS mode was added to the iPad, you can just choose not to use it. iPadOS would still exist and be the default, while those who want a macOS mode can be happy.



Except it's not sacrificing anything because again macOS mode would be optional and not installed by default, and you'd still be able to switch back to iPadOS if it was installed.

I've yet to see any compelling argument to why macOS mode can't and shouldn't be on the iPad. There's nothing wrong with having a macOS Mode on the iPad. It's just a net positive. Hell it would encourage people to actually buy iPad Pros.

Especially in the 12.9" or even the rumored 16". No reason they couldn't do this at all.

 

[Ludatyk]

I've yet to see any compelling argument to why macOS mode can't and shouldn't be on the iPad. There's nothing wrong with having a macOS Mode on the iPad. It's just a net positive. Hell it would encourage people to actually buy iPad Pros.

Never said anything wrong with macOS on the iPad... my only argument is what's the point? It's two seperate product categories... if I ran a business it would be silly for me to combine them both when they both serve a purpose for their user base.

And in additon to that, both product categories are a billion dollar industry separately.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I don't agree, mobile and desktop apps are not the same thing... So it would not nullify anything. The 30% cut is not the main reason stopping desktop software houses from porting their apps to mobile, the main reason is they can't be bothered to redesign their apps to work with touch for mobile devices.
I have mentioned the idea of a dock many times on MR, and the best for factor in my optionin would be a (desktop) magic keyboard with a M-series chip and some kind of tablet stand (à la Surface Book)
But I still think it wouldn't change much, it would probably be too heavy (it would need a battery) and not seamless enough like the Magic Keyboard.
The main reason people want MacOS as an option on iPad (again noone is forcing anyone contratry to what you said), other that all the el cheapos that want to spend less money, is to be able to travel light and have cellular on the go with one device that can be both an iPad and a MacBook. Most would probably have another Mac or Windows device at home anyway... But if you add too much bulk or if the device is complicated to use or needs to be plugged it, it just defeats the purpose....

You earlier tried to state that one of the reasons Apple dont put macOS on the iPad was due to them (Apple) missing out on the cut - Nothing to do with the devs. That's what I was referring to. If there is no need to use an App Store, then in your assumption of apple not porting macOS on to the iPad because of revenue is flawed.

Here:

Also, if Apples lets MacOS run on iPads in addition to iPadOS, software companies will have no incentive to develop pro apps for iPads and Apple will miss on their 30% cut for those more expensive apps

I don't agree, mobile and desktop apps are not the same thing... So it would not nullify anything. The 30% cut is not the main reason stopping desktop software houses from porting their apps to mobile, the main reason is they can't be bothered to redesign their apps to work with touch for mobile devices.

They don't see the potential that's the issue. That's why massive king pin Adobe are playing distant catchup to Serif's Affinity Photo with the market leading Photoshop on the iPad - a device that is arguably built for apps like Photoshop.

The main reason people want MacOS as an option on iPad (again noone is forcing anyone contratry to what you said),

If you're talking about some kind of dual boot, then yes there will be no forcing. But most just simply hate iPadOS and want macOS, which is what I was referring too.

 

[cupcakes2000]

macOS mode

It's quite a lot more complicated than just a macOS mode, don't you think?

 

[Ludatyk]

It's quite a lot more complicated than just a macOS mode, don't you think?

Nope! According to MR users.. it has an M1 chip porting it over should be easy.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It's not even slightly the same. Windows and Linux are already optimised to run using a mouse and a keyboard. Putting macOS onto a device optimised for touch would make macOS unoptimised for the device.

Again: JUST 👏 DISABLE 👏 THE 👏 TOUCH 👏 SCREEN 👏 JUST 👏 LIKE 👏 SIDECAR 👏 MODE 👏

It is not complicated at all. Just set macOS mode to only use a keyboard and mouse and won't work without one. They don't have to tweak macOS at all for the iPad. They already do this with Sidecar Mode where the touchscreen is disabled

Of course, the optimised version of macOS is already available for the device. It's called iPadOS.

iPadOS isn't macOS lmao. iPadOS lacks many features and when using a keyboard and mouse is worse than macOS. iPadOS lacks:

• The ability to install whatever you wanted (or as the kids call it Sideloading nowadays)
• Alternative app stores
• Good window multitasking
• Multiuser support
• Pro apps (Yes Procreate is great and iPadOS is getting Davinci Resolve but they're still restricted to touch screens and limited functionality and there's still even more pro apps not on iPadOS that are on macOS)
• OS virtualization
• The ability to code
• A file manager that doesn't suck

macOS has many things iPadOS doesn't, while iPadOS has some benefits that macOS doesn't. Hence why giving the choice to use either OS whenever you wanted on an iPad Pro would be a net positive.

And again, Samsung DeX Mode exists.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It's quite a lot more complicated than just a macOS mode, don't you think?

Nope! According to MR users.. it has an M1 chip porting it over should be easy.

Precising. Not even M1 anymore, now it has the M2. The iPads got the guts of Macs in them with identical specs to the Macbook Airs. All it would take would be adding a macOS mode. Wouldn't even need to convert macOS for touch since the iPad has so many keyboard and mice accessories now that they could easily just turn the touch screen off just like they already do in sidecar mode.

And it seems Apple agrees as lately there's been rumors that macOS 14 is being tested for an 11 inch size so it can run on the small iPad Pro.

Wild rumor claims macOS 14 is coming to the M2 iPad Pro

That would certainly shake things up.

www.macworld.com

 

[Digitalguy]

You earlier tried to state that one of the reasons Apple dont put macOS on the iPad was due to them (Apple) missing out on the cut - Nothing to do with the devs. That's what I was referring to. If there is no need to use an App Store, then in your assumption of apple not porting macOS on to the iPad because of revenue is flawed.

Here:


They don't see the potential that's the issue. That's why massive king pin Adobe are playing distant catchup to Serif's Affinity Photo with the market leading Photoshop on the iPad - a device that is arguably built for apps like Photoshop.

That's precisely what I was saying, developers already have a hard time justifying porting desktop apps to iPad, if MacOS is available they'll have zero incentives

If you're talking about some kind of dual boot, then yes there will be no forcing. But most just simply hate iPadOS and want macOS, which is what I was referring too.

Yes I am talking dual boot and some talk about virtualization (I still think dual boot is the best option but both are options).
And no, I think it's time to stop with the argument "most hate iPadOS and want MacOS", this argument makes no sense, especially if MacOS on iPad had no touch, than why even buy an iPad in the first place.
The truth is that many people like/love the iPad and iPadOS for many uses (each has their own) but would like to be able to run desktop apps on the go instead of bringing 2 devices. Some would probably need MacOS only 10% of the time, and in that case I can see them wanting it at home too, instead of a Mac (it's not my case, for me it would be mainly for on the go, I would have a desktop at home anyway)
And there is nothing wrong about it....

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Never said anything wrong with macOS on the iPad... my only argument is what's the point? It's two seperate product categories... if I ran a business it would be silly for me to combine them both when they both serve a purpose for their user base.

And in additon to that, both product categories are a billion dollar industry separately.

I repeat what I said: The same argument was had years ago with the iPhone vs iPod Touch when the touch got announced with having iOS as well. "What's the point of getting an iPhone then when I can just get a cheaper iPod Touch?" Did the iPod Touch make the iPhone pointless? No, of course not. The iPod Touch was the cheaper option but the iPhone was of course, well, a phone. So both devices still had their respective audiences, especially when at the time unlocked iPhones were a lot less common and more expensive so you had to get a plan with an iPhone just to be able to use iOS, so those who just wanted iOS could have iOS thanks to the iPod Touch.

macOS on the iPad wouldn't change that either since the Mac is still cheaper than an iPad Pro, has more ports than an iPad Pro, and aside from the Macbook Air has an actual heatsink unlike the iPad Pro. The iPad Pro would gain a killer feature that would justify its existence and make people want to buy one, and in turn macOS's market share surges thanks to the iPad Pro. it's a win-win for everyone

 

[Digitalguy]

I repeat what I said: The same argument was had years ago with the iPhone vs iPod Touch when the touch got announced with having iOS as well. "What's the point of getting an iPhone then when I can just get a cheaper iPod Touch?" Did the iPod Touch make the iPhone pointless? No, of course not. The iPod Touch was the cheaper option but the iPhone was of course, well, a phone. So both devices still had their respective audiences, especially when at the time unlocked iPhones were a lot less common and more expensive so you had to get a plan with an iPhone just to be able to use iOS, so those who just wanted iOS could have iOS thanks to the iPod Touch.

macOS on the iPad wouldn't change that either since the Mac is still cheaper than an iPad Pro, has more ports than an iPad Pro, and aside from the Macbook Air has an actual heatsink unlike the iPad Pro. The iPad Pro would gain a killer feature that would justify its existence and make people want to buy one, and in turn macOS's market share surges thanks to the iPad Pro. it's a win-win for everyone

I am not convinced of the win-win argument and neither is Apple. It would be a win for users if they have the option, just as multi-account on iPad woud be, but not necessarily for Apple....

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I am not convinced of the win-win argument and neither is Apple. It would be a win for users if they have the option, just as multi-account on iPad woud be, but not necessarily for Apple....

I mean...Apple seems to be testing macOS for iPad internally soooo...

Apple Patent Suggests Future iPad Could Transform Into macOS-Like Experience When Attached to a Keyboard

A new Apple patent has suggested that a future iPad or version of iPadOS could include the ability to transform the tablet into a macOS-like user...

www.macrumors.com

Apple rumored to be testing macOS for M2 iPad Pro | AppleInsider

A leaker has claimed that Apple is working on a version of macOS exclusive for the M2 iPad Pro, with it expected at some point in 2023.

appleinsider.com

 

[Ludatyk]

I repeat what I said: The same argument was had years ago with the iPhone vs iPod Touch when the touch got announced with having iOS as well. "What's the point of getting an iPhone then when I can just get a cheaper iPod Touch?" Did the iPod Touch make the iPhone pointless? No, of course not. The iPod Touch was the cheaper option but the iPhone was of course, well, a phone. So both devices still had their respective audiences, especially when at the time unlocked iPhones were a lot less common and more expensive so you had to get a plan with an iPhone just to be able to use iOS, so those who just wanted iOS could have iOS thanks to the iPod Touch.

macOS on the iPad wouldn't change that either since the Mac is still cheaper than an iPad Pro, has more ports than an iPad Pro, and aside from the Macbook Air has an actual heatsink unlike the iPad Pro.

I figured you would go that route… iPhone vs iPod Touch were two separate categories.. however, they ran the same operating system. Reason why the iPod Touch exist was for those who didn’t care to have a cell phone plan.. it wasn’t necessarily about it being cheaper.

But with the Mac and iPad… they run two different operating system. As I said before, the iPad serves users who prefer a touch focused interface whereas the Mac serves those who value mouse input. Granted, macOS is more robust than iPadOS… but they have their pros and cons.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I figured you would go that route… iPhone vs iPod Touch were two separate categories.. however, they ran the same operating system.

Well there you go. Mac and iPad are also two separate categories since the Mac also includes desktop Macs like the Mac Mini, iMac, and Mac Studio, on top of the big ass Mac Pro being the best of the best.

So even if the iPad (which btw macOS mode would most likely only be for the iPad Pros according to the rumors that macOS 14 is coming to the iPad) got macOS, both would still be separate categories.

Reason why the iPod Touch exist was for those who didn’t care to have a cell phone plan.. it wasn’t necessarily about it being cheaper.

When the unlocked iPhones became more common it did become a case of being cheaper. it's why the iPod Touch lasted so long up until this year since it was still cheaper than even the iPhone SE. Since it's no longer cheaper than the iPhones since all the refurbs for sale cost less than the Touch, the Touch got discontinued as aside from having a headphone jack it was redundant compared to just getting a secondhand iPhone.

But with the Mac and iPad… they run two different operating system.

Unless macOS Mode came to the iPad then they could both run the same OS. :>

As I said before, the iPad serves users who prefer a touch focused interface whereas the Mac serves those who value mouse input. Granted, macOS is more robust than iPadOS… but they have their pros and cons.

Then why does Apple keep advertising keyboard and mice accessories for the iPad? Apple's been marketing the iPad as a laptop replacement for years now. They want people to buy iPads as laptop replacements, but software wise they fail in every aspect of that, even when using a keyboard and mouse since the mouse is emulating touch.

So in light of that, putting macOS on the iPad would make the iPad that laptop replacement they want the iPad to be. The iPad would still have that touch focused interface while those who want more and want to have their iPad be the laptop replacement Apple wants it to be will have an OS where it can be that.

 

[Shirasaki]

Never said anything wrong with macOS on the iPad... my only argument is what's the point? It's two seperate product categories... if I ran a business it would be silly for me to combine them both when they both serve a purpose for their user base.

And in additon to that, both product categories are a billion dollar industry separately.

Two separate product line, one of which highly resembles iPhone but does almost everything iPhone can do better except when involving phone call, SMS and NFC? (Cellular iPad has GPS btw)
Apple clearly wants people to buy two devices. We have seen this already and it is not a secret. But no, iPad to this day is still a glorified iPhone with a bit of extra multitasking capabilities.

 

[ignatius345]

I find it average pretty much useless on my 11" M1 iPad and even my MBA M2, but like it on my 24" iMac.
It needs the bigger screen space.

I've only tried it on my M1 Air, and yeah, it doesn't have enough space there to be worth it.

I spend my whole workday on the M1 iMac 24", and while Stage Manager would probably spread out a bit better there, I have for quite a few years gotten used to using multiple desktops through Mission Control, with windows grouped on each tailored to a specific task. It's not perfect, but it generally works very well. I'll give Stage Manager another shot when I update the iMac to Ventura but I doubt it'll ever replace Mission Control for me.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Stage Manager is a solution in search of a problem.

 

[Ludatyk]

Two separate product line, one of which highly resembles iPhone but does almost everything iPhone can do better except when involving phone call, SMS and NFC? (Cellular iPad has GPS btw)

We already know the iPad resembles the iPhone… what point are you making?

Apple clearly wants people to buy two devices. We have seen this already and it is not a secret. But no, iPad to this day is still a glorified iPhone with a bit of extra multitasking capabilities.

Apple wants consumers to choose between the Mac or iPad. Or better yet buy both as you stated... fully aware of that. However, I did not go that route… I‘m into the iPad. But you seem clearly into the Mac and if that’s the case, then by all means… buy a Mac. You keep mentioning the iPad being a glorified iPhone… but it has features that take advantage of the screen real estate.

In addition to screen real estate features, not to mention it supports Apple Pencil and mouse support (both don’t exist on the iPhone)… there is also the best tablet apps in the industry.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Stage Manager is a solution in search of a problem.

Well, on a Mac yes. But isn't one of the 'problems' on an iPad multitasking? I actually much prefer the prior and still available solution of split screen and slideover. I think windowed apps should have been made in the slideover/quicknote style, using all the massive waste of space that is control centre as a staging/management area, more similar to spaces on the Mac - Spaces is an elegant solution right there, and it would work on an iPad pretty nicely.

 

[cupcakes2000]

We already know the iPad resembles the iPhone… what point are you making?


Apple wants consumers to choose between the Mac or iPad. Or better yet buy both as you stated... fully aware of that. However, I did not go that route… I‘m into the iPad. But you seem clearly into the Mac and if that’s the case, then by all means… buy a Mac. You keep mentioning the iPad being a glorified iPhone… but it has features that take advantage of the screen real estate.

In addition to screen real estate features, not to mention it supports Apple Pencil and mouse support (both don’t exist on the iPhone)… there is also the best tablet apps in the industry.

Haters gotta hate, unfortunately. That's just the internet for you.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Well, on a Mac yes. But isn't one of the 'problems' on an iPad multitasking? I actually much prefer the prior and still available solution of split screen and slideover. I think windowed apps should have been made in the slideover/quicknote style, using all the massive waste of space that is control centre as a staging/management area, more similar to spaces on the Mac - Spaces is an elegant solution right there, and it would work on an iPad pretty nicely.

I guess, but the traditional way on a mac wastes less space on an iPad. In fact, the old way of multitasking on an iPad is a better use of space. So in fact I still believe this was a solution in search of a problem.