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Other iPhone 12 Pro camera, wow
- Thread starter DexBell
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Yeah, that, and the tiny sensor. Too bad there's little improvement on that lens. I was really hoping to see a 4x or 5x lens instead.
Apple effectively has 3 tiers of phones this year: 1) the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini, 2) the iPhone 12 Pro, and 3) the iPhone 12 Pro Max.
I don't see how anyone is going to want the 12 Pro. You don't get the affordability of the 12 and 12 mini nor the most significant camera improvements that the 12 Pro Max is getting.
Apple should have gone $899 for the 12 Pro and $999 for the Pro Max. A $200 gap between the models is completely unjustifiable.
I don't see how anyone is going to want the 12 Pro. You don't get the affordability of the 12 and 12 mini nor the most significant camera improvements that the 12 Pro Max is getting.
Apple should have gone $899 for the 12 Pro and $999 for the Pro Max. A $200 gap between the models is completely unjustifiable.
I am just torn between the sensor shift stabilisation and size. I came from X so 12 pro is just at a good position. But knowingly sensor shift stabilisation is fairly good for night mode and tech to bring into future pipeline models, , things cannot move forward for now 😩😭 12 pro 6.1 will be the best fit for daily driver and still could not let go off sensor shift.
Totally agree. The 12 Pro and the 12 have the same chip, the same screen, same dimensions, same 5G, same lenses & sensors minus the telephoto. What's not cool is that there are now artificial restrictions which if I'm not mistaken is a new thing. The 12 can technically do Dolby Vision at 60 but they restrict it to 30 just cuz, and same with the ProRAW.
Most people wouldn't notice or care about those features though, or use the lidar at all, and the 1x lens can crop to 2x (same as it does when you have a telephoto lens in low light), so imo the 12 is a great deal, and leaves little to no incentive to get the Pro.
Most people wouldn't notice or care about those features though, or use the lidar at all, and the 1x lens can crop to 2x (same as it does when you have a telephoto lens in low light), so imo the 12 is a great deal, and leaves little to no incentive to get the Pro.
For me the max is too big and the 5 stainless iPhones I've owned have had much better durability than the aluminum iPhones I've owned, so the pro is the best choice for me
This year's iPhone lineup is cluttered, not clear at all. Not only the Pro and pro Max are different (which they shouldn't be, except for display size and battery time), but the pro models are all over the place
- 12 pro has same camera as 12 standard, plus the 2x lens
- stabilization is in the lens (only wide or also tele???)
- 12 pro max has 2,5x tele lens, but lens is slower (f2,2 versus f2)
- 12 pro max has a larger sensor (only for the wide lens as it seems?) and sensor shift stabilization
It is not clear how much better (if it is better) the sensor stab is versus the lens stabilization.
So if I mainly want to use the "tele" lens (actually it is more a normal lens in the camera realm) for the best possible portrait shots, it is not clear which phone is better: pro max has a lightly longer focal lenghth and this is better suited for portraits, but the lens is slightly slower and less optimal in low light.
Night mode is said to be on all 3 cameras, correct?
Bottom line: this kind of confusion should not have happened to Apple. While I have no doubt that the camera will be "good", it is not good for the line-up and not good for Apple's reputation. Apple has become famous and successful for elegance and simplicity. This year's lineup is not up to those standards.
- 12 pro has same camera as 12 standard, plus the 2x lens
- stabilization is in the lens (only wide or also tele???)
- 12 pro max has 2,5x tele lens, but lens is slower (f2,2 versus f2)
- 12 pro max has a larger sensor (only for the wide lens as it seems?) and sensor shift stabilization
It is not clear how much better (if it is better) the sensor stab is versus the lens stabilization.
So if I mainly want to use the "tele" lens (actually it is more a normal lens in the camera realm) for the best possible portrait shots, it is not clear which phone is better: pro max has a lightly longer focal lenghth and this is better suited for portraits, but the lens is slightly slower and less optimal in low light.
Night mode is said to be on all 3 cameras, correct?
Bottom line: this kind of confusion should not have happened to Apple. While I have no doubt that the camera will be "good", it is not good for the line-up and not good for Apple's reputation. Apple has become famous and successful for elegance and simplicity. This year's lineup is not up to those standards.
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Sensor stabilization is much better than lens stabilization. Its the difference between a camera body with IBIS or only a lens with IS, IBIS always wins. For portraits, Id rather have 65mm than 52mm, even with a slightly slower lens. Apple made it clear they wanted the Max to be the flagship with features even the Pro did not have. Thats exactly what they have done.
Apple's marketing can be quite deceptive here, talking about 4x to 5x optical zoom. People who have used cameras in the past could have assumed those lenses can move back and forth for different focal length, but they are more like fixed lens each. The Wide lens is taken a zoom reference point of 0, the Ultrawide lens is at -2, while the Telephoto lens is at +2 (for 12 Pro) and +2.5 (for 12 Pro Max).
Maybe, lens stabilisation can go down to roughly 1/10 - 1/15s in a mirrorless camera. Problem with even longer shutter times is that in real life, there is a very limited number of situations where nothing at all moves.
So what is with the "portrait" camera: Does it have stabilisation or not?
What software features are “locked out” from the 12? The only one I can think of is 60fps Dolby Vision.
The iPhone 12 may have the same processor as the 12 Pro, but it also has considerably less RAM. Software performance isn’t all about the processor, you know.
Given your experience with photography, and considering the sensor they put on the Max, do you think for the amateur photographer (point n shoot kids, pets, etc) will be very noticeable in real life? You know the ins and outs far better than I. Thanks!
Because the focal length is longer. The f/ number is the ratio of the focal length to the aperture diameter. If you increase the focal length and can’t increase the diameter proportionately (because have to fit within a certain physical space), the f/ is going to increase.
This is not ”confusion”, it’s simply an engineering tradeoff. You can’t optimize every parameter at the same time.
I meant "confusion" not from an engineering perspective, but from a consumer's perspective. f2,2 versus f2 is roughly 1/3 stop. Certainly not much, but enough to make the photos look not better than last time. Maybe even slightly worse in bad light. Why shouldn't it have been possible to slightly increase the diameter of the lens?
I wasn't asked directly but have roughly 20y of experience in digital photography and have owned and used many cameras over the years. The lenses in the iPhone 12 Pro and 12 Pro max are the same, the pixels are slightly larger in the Pro max. 40% surface increase in the Pro Max - assuming they use exactly the same sensor technology from the same sensor generation will be visible in less than bright light, like in artificial lighting. The question is: will it matter? Will you see it in the image as a whole or only when zooming in?
I consider size, weight and price as much more important than the lens speed. When holding it, is the Pro Max still comfortable?
In the end compared to normal system cameras (some of which cost way less than an iPhone) iphones are still phone cameras and thus have quality limitations by the small sensor surface.
Once in the stores, I will handle both - the 12pro and 12pro max and decide by the "Look and feel". The 12pro will be slightly smaller than the iPhone 11 standard - a very nice size - the 12pro max will be considerably longer and will no longer fit entirely into your back pocket. I probably consider this a more important downside.
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All depends on how well the software is implemented. Have to wait until we see some tests.
Thats what I thought! But then you keep checking the forums here/reddit and others and find heaps of people are just buying the "Pro" with justifications such as the Color? 2GB Ram? all the way down to the 800 nits of max brightness :S.
Personally, I don't even like any of the colors of the Pro and if you have iCloud, there is no difference between a 64GB/128GB, you will find a way to fill it all up and it will all sync seamlessly.
Im convinced that Apple has managed to implement the idea of elitism if you get the "Pro" model.
If you need 128GB/256GB, then there is very little difference in price between iPhone 12 and 12 Pro, and the Pro becomes almost a no-brainer. 128GB is only $150 difference, which for most people over the course of 24 months is negligible (6 bucks a month?)
You’ve been slagging off Apple and iPhones for weeks criticising the lack of 120Hz and lame camera updates. You might admit you were wrong now but you’ve been very direct and sure of your inaccuracies. The 12 Pro Max won’t be available before December you said with absolute certainty a day before the keynote, belittling everybody that disagreed with you.
Sure the cameras are going to be excellent on all the 12’s this year like we all expected.
As I ask myself the camera question as well, I checked the Apple and other sources again and tried to sort it all out:
All cameras now have night mode, according to Apple, even the front camera (for nighttime selfies)
- ultra wide angle lens (13mm - extremely wide in normal photographic terms)
The Phones:
The Pro Max has some cameras advantages, but it means that you always have to carry a heavier, longer phone in your pocket/ jacket. Possible? Sure... Nice? Not so much. The new 12 pro (standard) is smaller than the iPhone 11 (non pro) while maintaining the display size. The 12 Pro Max is just a huge and very heavy phone, and prohibitively expensive at that (for a phone).
Now pick your poison!
The bluriness of moving objects or persons can *only* be reduced by faster (= shorter) shutter speed. This is possible with
a) a faster lens (the wide lenses are identically f1,6 across all 4 iPhone 12 models)
b) higher ISO, resulting in faster shutter times, but also more noise/ lower image quality.
As both the standard (= wide) camera and the super wide have the same max aperture on all 4 iPhones, motion blur will NOT be reduced on any.
The only difference is actually on the tele lens where the Pro max has a longer, but *slower* lens resulting (theoretically) in *more* motion blur.
All cameras now have night mode, according to Apple, even the front camera (for nighttime selfies)
- ultra wide angle lens (13mm - extremely wide in normal photographic terms)
- no stabilization in all 3 models
- improved lens quality (according to Apple)
- max aperture of f1,6 on both models which means improved by roughly 1/3 stop,
- improved edge to edge quality/ sharpness compared to iPhone 11 (according to Apple)
- 12 Pro has only lens stabilization (OIS), 12 Pro Max has sensor stabilization (longer possible shutter speeds, Apple says "up to 2s" which only makes sense if nothing moves).
- 12 Pro Max wide camera sensor is 47% larger, which means roughly 1/2 stop better performance. Half a stop means for example shutter speed of 1/90s instead of 1/60s which in some situations can mean far less motion blur of the person/ their eyes etc.
- focal length is 65mm on 12 Pro Max versus 52mm on 12 Pro. This is very slightly more pleasing in close portrait shots, difference however not visible to everybody
- max aperture = f2 on 12pro, f2,2 (1/3 stop slower) on 12pro max; in bad light the 12 Pro Max portrait camera will therefore have slightly more noise/ worse IQ
- both models have lens stabilization with the portrait camera (OIS)
The Phones:
- Pro Max is 40g heavier than the 12pro (this is a lot in the pocket)
- Pro Max is 14mm longer and 7mm wider, thickness obviously the same
- obviously, the Pro Max is even more expensive
The Pro Max has some cameras advantages, but it means that you always have to carry a heavier, longer phone in your pocket/ jacket. Possible? Sure... Nice? Not so much. The new 12 pro (standard) is smaller than the iPhone 11 (non pro) while maintaining the display size. The 12 Pro Max is just a huge and very heavy phone, and prohibitively expensive at that (for a phone).
Now pick your poison!
The bluriness of moving objects or persons can *only* be reduced by faster (= shorter) shutter speed. This is possible with
a) a faster lens (the wide lenses are identically f1,6 across all 4 iPhone 12 models)
b) higher ISO, resulting in faster shutter times, but also more noise/ lower image quality.
As both the standard (= wide) camera and the super wide have the same max aperture on all 4 iPhones, motion blur will NOT be reduced on any.
The only difference is actually on the tele lens where the Pro max has a longer, but *slower* lens resulting (theoretically) in *more* motion blur.
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I would be shocked if it is. While 47 percent increase in sensor size means that Pro Max should get a decent sized 1/1.7 sensor rest of the sensors are very small. You can look at the Huawei P40 review on DXOMark to see the difference in image quality. Especially with ultra-wide camera the difference in indoors is huge.
The good news is that Sony manufactures sensors for Apple and if the new 1/1.7 sensor in Pro Max is anything like the similarly sized sensor in Sony Xperia 1 ii it should be a great improvement from Iphone 11 or 12 pro.
Hopefully Apple will follow the competition with the larger sensors for telephoto and ultrawide next year.