Other iPhone 12 Pro camera, wow

[The Game 161]

I would be shocked if it is. While 47 percent increase in sensor size means that Pro Max should get a decent sized 1/1.7 sensor rest of the sensors are very small. You can look at the Huawei P40 review on DXOMark to see the difference in image quality. Especially with ultra-wide camera the difference in indoors is huge.

The good news is that Sony manufactures sensors for Apple and if the new 1/1.7 sensor in Pro Max is anything like the similarly sized sensor in Sony Xperia 1 ii it should be a great improvement from Iphone 11 or 12 pro.

Hopefully Apple will follow the competition with the larger sensors for telephoto and ultrawide next year.

Please don't use that piece of crap dxo mark as some kind of proof of camera quality. It's a site that gets paid off by Chinese companies for high scores

The fact you don't seethe pixel at the top of those rankings says everything you need to know about that site. That site is not an indicator of the best cameras.

Bigger sensors plus apples software should provide high results

 

[Samut]

Please don't use that piece of crap dxo mark as some kind of proof of camera quality. It's a site that gets paid off by Chinese companies for high scores

The fact you don't seethe pixel at the top of those rankings says everything you need to know about that site. That site is not an indicator of the best cameras.

Bigger sensors plus apples software should provide high results

The problem is that there are limits you can do with the computational photography. For example the ultra-wide sensor in Iphone 11 and 12 pro is 1/3.6” which is much smaller than on the other flagship phones.

The only sensor which will be improved according to keynote is the main sensor in Iphone Pro Max which will grow in size from 1/2.55 to 1/1.7.

 

[mailman199]

The only sensor which will be improved according to keynote is the main sensor in Iphone Pro Max which will grow in size from 1/2.55 to 1/1.7.

I really wish they add added this sensor to the reg 12. Next year I guess.

 

[Phone Junky]

You’ve been slagging off Apple and iPhones for weeks criticising the lack of 120Hz and lame camera updates. You might admit you were wrong now but you’ve been very direct and sure of your inaccuracies. The 12 Pro Max won’t be available before December you said with absolute certainty a day before the keynote, belittling everybody that disagreed with you.

Sure the cameras are going to be excellent on all the 12’s this year like we all expected.

I was thinking the same thing. It was all-out Apple hate from him because he couldn't get his upgrade after 12 months since "Apple screwed up". Where did all of that hate go? Seems like a different person posting.

 

[alba63]

For example the ultra-wide sensor in Iphone 11 and 12 pro is 1/3.6” which is much smaller than on the other flagship phones.
the main sensor in Iphone Pro Max will grow in size from 1/2.55 to 1/1.7.

Do you have a source for the absolute sensor sizes? Didn't find any...

 

[Protozo]

The bluriness of moving objects or persons can *only* be reduced by faster (= shorter) shutter speed. This is possible with
a) a faster lens (the wide lenses are identically f1,6 across all 4 iPhone 12 models)
b) higher ISO, resulting in faster shutter times, but also more noise/ lower image quality.

As both the standard (= wide) camera and the super wide have the same max aperture on all 4 iPhones, motion blur will NOT be reduced on any.
The only difference is actually on the tele lens where the Pro max has a longer, but *slower* lens resulting (theoretically) in *more* motion blur.

Thanks! in that case i will change the iphone 11 pro to the iphone 12 mini instead the 12 pro.

and the Dual optical image stabilization vs single optical stabilization and the LIDAR how will affect the image quality?

I like to take a lot of photos, but if the difference is minimal (telephoto) I prefer the iphone mini because of its weight.

 

[Samut]

Do you have a source for the absolute sensor sizes? Didn't find any...

There is article on Wikipedia which lists the following Sony sensors for iPhone 11 and iPhone 11 pro.

-IMX503 1/2.55" sensor
-IMX356 1/3.4" sensor for the telephoto
-IMX372 1/3.2" for the ultra-wide

There are also other good resources for the camera module teardowns which include close-ups of the sensors and camera parts. One of these is techinsights: https://www.techinsights.com/blog/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-teardown

One often forgotten feature of the larger sensors combined with large aperture lenses is that they start to have a real background blurring as seen in following video:

This creates much more pleasant subject separation in video. In addition it should be helpful with computational photography as the algorithms already have some subject separation in photos to start with.

 

[Samut]

I really wish they add added this sensor to the reg 12. Next year I guess.

Agreed. Looking at where the competition is going we might well see larger sensors on phone iPhone line next year.

 

[alba63]

In that case i will change the iphone 11 pro to the iphone 12 mini instead the 12 pro.
and the Dual optical image stabilization vs single optical stabilization and the LIDAR how will affect the image quality?
I like to take a lot of photos, but if the difference is minimal (telephoto) I prefer the iphone mini because of its weight.

I doubt the 12 Pro Max really has double stabilization (sensor + lens), I assume it ONLY has sensor stab. However that is enough. Apple says "up to 2s" which is quite insane and only useful in very limited cases.
Lidar is only useful for the AF. Apple says the camera will focus quicker in low light thanks to Lidar detecting the distance towards the object.
The 12 mini of course only has the super wide angle lens and the wide angle. The portrait lens is not present. You can make good full body portraits - and with a bit of experience - half body with the standard wide lens, but the closer you get, the more you will see focal length distorition (closer parts of the face will look disproportionally big, not very pleasing). Honestly, why would you give up the iPhone 11pro? It's camera quality is good, no?

If I were to choose the best compromise between the 4 new models, it would be the 12pro. It is smaller than the 11 standard, and hardly bigger than the 11pro (non max). But what's "too big" resopectively "small enough" is a very subjective question

There is article on Wikipedia which lists the following Sony sensors for iPhone 11 and iPhone 11 pro.

-IMX503 1/2.55" sensor
-IMX356 1/3.4" sensor for the telephoto
-IMX372 1/3.2" for the ultra-wide

Wow, the size of the portrait sensor is dissappointing. So small - even smaller than the one in the ultra wide camera. This makes the "tele camera" much less important for the decision as no high quality results can really be expected from it, specially in less than optimal light. Therefore the even slower lens of the new Pro Max is even a more important factor, the small sensor would have profited from a faster lens or at least of equal lens speed, not from a slower one.
So for the portrait camera they gain at one parameter (focal length) but loose on another one in return. Good example for a technical "side step" rather than a step up. Not so convincing...

 

[Samut]

Wow, the size of the portrait sensor is dissappointing. So small - even smaller than the one in the ultra wide camera. This makes the "tele camera" much less important for the decision as no high quality results can really be expected from it, specially in less than optimal light. Therefore the even slower lens of the new Pro Max is even a more important factor, the small sensor would have profited from a faster lens or at least of equal lens speed, not from a slower one.
So for the portrait camera they gain in one parameter (forcal length) but loose on another one in return. Good example for a technical "side step" rather than a step up. Not so convincing...

I agree with you. That also explains why there is such a big difference with the ultra-wide, telephoto and the main camera on iPhone.

For someone who is going to upgrade for the better cameras I would therefore recommend the iPhone 12 pro max as in theory it should give the best results for the main camera. Although at this point it is just speculation.

Since we know that Sony makes sensors for Apple I found this interesting article (https://www.dpreview.com/news/85508...epth-look-at-the-sony-xperia-1-ii-camera-tech) on Sony Xperia 1 ii.

If you read it through it sounds surprisingly familiar with the features found on iPhone 12 pro max. Including the 100% focus pixels and usage of Tof sensor for autofocus. It also explains the differences in sensor readout speeds between the different sensors from Sony. I believe that such sensor is needed for iPhone's features such as HDR, HDR video and computational photography.

ps. Sorry I made a typo and according to article it is 1/3.4" for the both of the lenses. I also forgot to include the actual link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exmor) to the list of sensors.

 

[alba63]

Thanks, very interesting links. I really never dived that deep into the phone camera specs. Thing is, the more you do, the more downsides and inconsequent tech design "features" you discover. At the end of the day, the only camera that is really worth of basing the buying decision on is the standard wide camera. The other ones just suck, simply spoken.
So, for the new iPhones, I still don't know. 12 Pro or Pro Max will be my decision. I guess I have to take it into my hands in the Apple Store to know what phone size feels best in my hands.

 

[Protozo]

I doubt the 12 Pro Max really has double stabilization (sensor + lens), I assume it ONLY has sensor stab. However that is enough. Apple says "up to 2s" which is quite insane and only useful in very limited cases.
Lidar is only useful for the AF. Apple says the camera will focus quicker in low light thanks to Lidar detecting the distance towards the object.
The 12 mini of course only has the super wide angle lens and the wide angle. The portrait lens is not present. You can make good full body portraits - and with a bit of experience - half body with the standard wide lens, but the closer you get, the more you will see focal length distorition (closer parts of the face will look disproportionally big, not very pleasing). Honestly, why would you give up the iPhone 11pro? It's camera quality is good, no?

If I were to choose the best compromise between the 4 new models, it would be the 12pro. It is smaller than the 11 standard, and hardly bigger than the 11pro (non max). But what's "too big" resopectively "small enough" is a very subjective question



Wow, the size of the portrait sensor is dissappointing. So small - even smaller than the one in the ultra wide camera. This makes the "tele camera" much less important for the decision as no high quality results can really be expected from it, specially in less than optimal light. Therefore the even slower lens of the new Pro Max is even a more important factor, the small sensor would have profited from a faster lens or at least of equal lens speed, not from a slower one.
So for the portrait camera they gain at one parameter (focal length) but loose on another one in return. Good example for a technical "side step" rather than a step up. Not so convincing...

11 pro wheights too much.
12 pro same weight but improved cameras (I like to take a lot of photos)
12 mini perfect weight but worse cameras than the 11pro and 12 pro.
also if I change I want the MagSafe wallet.

so this year I’m very confused about changing My 11 pro or not

 

[the future]

Lidar is only useful for the AF.

Lidar also enables Night Mode portrait shots, doesn‘t it?

 

[alba63]

12 mini perfect weight but worse cameras than the 11pro and 12 pro.

so this year I’m very confused about changing My 11 pro or not

12mini has one camera less than the pro models, and the main/ standard sensor is smaller than the one in the 12 Pro Max (but same size as 12 pro / non- max).
If I had the iPhone 11 pro with the portrait camera I would keep it probably. Maybe the iPhone 13 will be a bigger step.

Lidar also enables Night Mode portrait shots, doesn‘t it?

Maybe it helps for "cutting out" the person. However the very fine & problematic structures like hair may be too fiine for being detected by Lidar. But who knows. Reviews will tell.

 

[the future]

Maybe it helps for "cutting out" the person. However the very fine & problematic structures like hair may be too fiine for being detected by Lidar. But who knows. Reviews will tell.

Yeah, of course we don‘t know how good it will actually work. But still, night mode portraits are a function that only the Pro models have at all, because of the Lidar sensor.

 

[Samut]

Yeah, of course we don‘t know how good it will actually work. But still, night mode portraits are a function that only the Pro models have at all, because of the Lidar sensor.

If iPhone 12 pro's have the same lidar as iPad pro it will mostly help with the subject distance for the night portraits. According to following website (http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2020/03/techinsights-finds-sony-tof-sensor.html) the Lidar used by Apple is not as accurate as the one used in FaceID.

Some websites suggest that this is because it is optimized for the longer distance as opposed to resolution.

iPad's lidar

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KsIQkbL8U-4/Xn9rSYW77JI/AAAAAAAAdzo/vm2P5RxJPSAwvPo4HHJlGIQ9WxNPjNkrgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/iPad%2Bpro%2BLiDAR-5.JPG

Face ID

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UVMNMQ1ZE24/Xn9pBQl8UjI/AAAAAAAAdzU/dTQl-jgqgLIlJ0bCTfqwf5WNkM1Y_o8gACLcBGAsYHQ/s400/iPad%2Bpro%2BLiDAR-3.JPG

 

[richard371]

I hate apple did this. I really want to go a little smaller but being into photography I want the best cams. My 12 pro arrives Friday. I’ll start the return process online on day 14 pro get a return label. They usually give you 14 days or return after you get the label Nov 5 giving me to about the 18th to return it. I’ll order the max for delivery on the 13. if there is no obvious difference between the cameras I’ll keep the pro otherwise I’ll go with the max. Had the pro been 5.8 I would not touch it but 6.1 seems like the perfect size.

 

[alba63]

I’ll start the return process online on day 14 pro get a return label. They usually give you 14 days or return after you get the label Nov 5 giving me to about the 18th to return it. I’ll order the max for delivery on the 13.

Why not just wait for the first reviews and detailed online samples? You order two, knowing that in any case you will return one of them. Apple will have to sell the returned one for a reduced price...

 

[jfeathe]

Apple effectively has 3 tiers of phones this year: 1) the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 mini, 2) the iPhone 12 Pro, and 3) the iPhone 12 Pro Max.

I don't see how anyone is going to want the 12 Pro. You don't get the affordability of the 12 and 12 mini nor the most significant camera improvements that the 12 Pro Max is getting.

Apple should have gone $899 for the 12 Pro and $999 for the Pro Max. A $200 gap between the models is completely unjustifiable.

Well, after writing that with such certainty, I myself have pre-ordered an iPhone 12 Pro. When I went to study the phones in depth before buying, I realized 3 important factors that changed my decision: 1) my soon-to-be $799 purchase was actually $829 (don't like how that wasn't highlighted in the key note); 2) the Pro phones start with 128GB of storage (not 64GB); and 3) the Pro phones have an additional 2GB of RAM.

Although the 12's are going to be more than capable with 4GB of RAM, I am someone who will keep my phone for at least 4 or 5 years. My last purchase was a 6s and the only reason I've had it as long as I have was because it had 2GB of RAM as opposed to the previous year's 6's 1GB. 2GB of RAM was excessive for the 6s but that future-proofing has allowed it to perform fantastically on the current operating system. I think 6GB is overkill for what iOS does now, but I also feel secure in my upcoming phone's longevity and am excited to see it perform flawlessly for 5 or 6 or even more years.

I really think think Apple should have discussed the boosted RAM in the Pro Series. To me, and I'm sure others, that is far, far more valuable and exciting than any camera improvements and could have been a massive selling point. I still think it was a huge mistake to market the Pro iPhones exclusively as photography and filmmaking phones and then further differentiate the Pro models by the sole feature they were promoting. It gave the 12 Pro no identity when in fact there was a big selling point there all along with the 50% increase in RAM capacity.

 

[richard371]

Awe poor Apple. I spend so much on Apple products. They are a 2 trillion dollar company for a reason. They could care less if I return something.

Why not just wait for the first reviews and detailed online samples? You order two, knowing that in any case you will return one of them. Apple will have to sell the returned one for a reduced price...