Other iPhone 14 with 3.5 mm headphone jack and advanced support for high-impedance headphones

[PeteBurgh]

Well, the analogy would work if Apple published that you need to use a floppy drive to install their new OS:

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

I know we are disagreeing a lot here, but to be fair that support document is totally ridiculous and encourages odd conjecture!

So I can now listen to lossless audio on the 2 cm built in speaker on my iPhone and iPad mini! Erm, thanks Apple!

 

[Ram65]

Apple will do whats best for Apple and that’s take everybody‘s money

 

[eyoungren]

I got my wife BT headphones years ago and what was an annoying fact of having to carry her phone around while working in the kitchen went away. She could charge her phone and listen at the same time.

Bone conduction BT headphones which allow the same thing AND to hear the environment around her sealed the deal. She has never requested to go back and lossless is not any term she's familiar with when it comes to music.

So we add the jack back and everyone is happy as OP argues. Except Apple - who's now providing a jack for a majority of people who don't and won't use it (like my wife) because they've moved on.

So, who are we accommodating then? Just how large a percentage of the market for the iPhone is the 'pro' segment? Is that market share more than the one my wife probably represents?

Or is it just that the market segment of 'pros' thinks it should be catered to regardless?

 

[ian87w]

It would be a good business decision for Apple to add a 3.5 mm headphone jack with advanced support for high-impedance headphones (like on new MacBooks) to the new iPhone.

1) Apple would make their product line cleaner by allowing to use the same set of headphones with MacBooks and iPhones.

2) Headphone jack will allow to listen to Apple Music lossless (Bluetooth is not capable of transmitting lossless). Therefore, helping to win a market share for Apple Music.

3) It would be possible to listen to music while charging your iPhone.


What are your thoughts?

No, it's not a good business decision to nudge your customers away from buying more accessories (AirPods) from you. Plain and simple.

Apple is about profits, not whatever your niche use case scenario.

 

[ian87w]

You're probably going to get overwhelming rejection of this concept because the crowd thinks Apple won't go (back) there in spite of investing real time on improving the jack in the new MBpros AND rolling out a version of streaming music that can't fit into the bandwidth of "the future" (bluetooth) option.

But there IS an Apple-made (presumably high quality DAC) inside every iPhone so that it can work as a phone. If it had a headphone jack connected to it, #2 and #3 are fully resolved (again) and the user convenience in #1 should not be overlooked.

Furthermore, it would be a return to thoroughly ubiquitous "just works" instead of relatively niche (computing tech (almost) only). You don't need to (worry about) charge those kinds of headphones. Airlines will give you a set of that kind if you need some for the flight and your buds are dead/lost. Etc.

Those who believe bluetooth and/or dongles are the better way would be unaffected. They can keep using iPhone as they do.

Those who argue against it for fear of water damage seem to overlook the BIGGER hole nearby (lightning jack) and the many small holes (speaker) as if water only wants to sneak in through the one kind of jack.

And- IMOO (in my ongoing opinion) dongles are STUPID! Yes, I could grasp the value of pro-quality dongles for those that need that, but I'm referring to the "how to make it work" dongles picked up by the masses to buy back a feature that used to come included. For example the $10 retail ones branded by Apple almost certainly do NOT have a better DAC in them than the one built inside iPhone/iPad.

However, all that said, it must be hugely profitable to sell set after set of AirPods instead of those interested being able to use various kinds of wired buds/phones that have sometimes held up for a decade or longer. And regardless of how the voting would go here and by all consumers, profit rules decision making in modern Apple above all else.

Personal Note: I picked up iPad Mini 6 recently and the ONE flaw to what I think is a FANTASTIC upgrade is that they removed the headphone jack. So even if one wants to make an argument of the available space inside of iPhone- which has at least some plausibility given the size- I can't imagine any such argument fitting iPad Mini or larger. And yet the jack is gone.

The Macbook Pros and iPhones are completely different segment.

Why should Apple put something in on an iPhone that would discourage people from buying their AirPods? Apple has been bragging about how many Airpods they have been selling. It's printing them money. There's also the reason lightning remains on the iPhone despite everything else (iPads, Macs) have gone USB-C. Money (mfi licenses). iPhones are their main bread and butter that anything that affects the sales of their iPhone accessories can mean a lot of money they are not getting.

Macbook Pros are different. They're low volume seller, and Apple pushed them to cater for specific segments.

 

[cyanite]

It would be a good business decision for Apple to add a 3.5 mm headphone jack with advanced support for high-impedance headphones (like on new MacBooks) to the new iPhone.

Would it? Just because some people want it, doesn't mean it's enough for it to be a good business decision.

2) Headphone jack will allow to listen to Apple Music lossless (Bluetooth is not capable of transmitting lossless). Therefore, helping to win a market share for Apple Music.

Yeah, but it's a small one. Most people don't care or certainly don't care enough vs. the convenience of wireless.

3) It would be possible to listen to music while charging your iPhone.

That's also the case with Bluetooth, where you can also walk around in the room.

Yes, the difference with 256kbps is subtle, but once you hear lossless you don't want to go back.

You mean "I" and not "you". I'd be careful generalizing to the general you. Also, "256kbps" is not fully meaningful without the codec, which is in this case AAC. I don't know if I can hear the difference or not.. but I am pretty sure that it wouldn't be meaningful enough to give up wireless.

 

[Andrew73875]

iPhones are their main bread and butter that anything that affects the sales of their iPhone accessories can mean a lot of money they are not getting.

Nothing precludes them from selling accessories and having a headphone jack. Those who need mobility more than audio quality will continue using AirPods. Which are the best on the market considering their W3 and H1 chip. People even can have both: wireless for gym and commute, and wired for home (or airplane, etc). They will sell even more headphones.

Yeah, but it's a small one. Most people don't care or certainly don't care enough vs. the convenience of wireless.

Would it? Just because some people want it, doesn't mean it's enough for it to be a good business decision.

You mean "I" and not "you". I'd be careful generalizing to the general you. Also, "256kbps" is not fully meaningful without the codec, which is in this case AAC. I don't know if I can hear the difference or not.. but I am pretty sure that it wouldn't be meaningful enough to give up wireless.

All these would be valid points if Apple didn't already add lossless quality to Apple Music. This means that for Apple there are enough people who care about music quality to justify adding lossless. Also they wouldn't publish this on their website:

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

It's their competitive advantage. And adding lossless audio to a streaming service is not that easy and can't be just done overnight. It requires more bandwidth, more storage etc etc. Spotify couldn't do it for example.

If it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't do it. It's obvious that Apple will implement a headphone jack in upcoming releases. Otherwise they wouldn't even bother with adding lossless to iOS.

 

[iStorm]

Interesting article that was just posted. I don't think the headphone jack is coming back...

More Than Half of Apple Music Listeners Using Spatial Audio, Says Apple Exec

In an interview with Billboard, Apple's vice president of Apple Music and Beats, Oliver Schusser, details the growth of and reaction to Spatial...

www.macrumors.com

...but the challenge is it doesn't play on any headphone in the world over Bluetooth or any wireless connection, and that is by a country mile the number one way how people consume music these days.

Schusser says most people can't tell the difference when Lossless music is played and noted that while it's an important feature to a select niche, it isn't a mass-market product.

 

[Andrew73875]

From the same Billboard article:

Everyone in the industry was really focused on Lossless,” says Schusser. “We have every song in our catalog available in Lossless to us delivered by the industry, but the challenge is it doesn’t play on any headphone in the world over Bluetooth or any wireless connection, and that is by a country mile the number one way how people consume music these days.”

Because they haven't added headphone jack back yet ;-) And they will because:

“Good technology will eventually make it into all places,” he says. “And I think that’s what this is going to be.”

Lossless with a headphone jack will also help Apple to differentiate themselves, making it a competitive advantage (just like spatial audio):

Apple Music’s Spatial Audio push helps the company differentiate itself in a commoditized market. With every major music streaming service maintaining the same catalog of songs, an improved and easily noticeable audio experience would help the company separate itself from its competitors like Spotify. For the labels, remastering catalog music in Spatial Audio can reinvigorate streams around an album or artist and provide new artists with an additional promotional tool alongside the improved listening experience for fans.

People from creative community will also appreciate it:

There’s a much larger audience for Spatial Audio compared to the early days of the Dolby Atmos Music rollout, when there was more experimentation with the format,” Schusser says. “Now it gets a lot more serious, and now we’re not the only one to make it part of the standard [streaming] plan,” says Schusser. “There’s a real audience now, so people spend more time on it. There’s more knowledge and we know just from the engagement, the conversations that we’re in, that people within the creative community talk about it a lot more.” .

This article only reaffirms the fact that Apple is interested in high quality music.

 

[iStorm]

Good technology will eventually make it into all places.

My interpretation of this statement/article is that they're working on something new. It doesn't have to be a headphone jack.

This topic reminds me of my work in IT and software development. I often hear people say I want X, so I need Y to make it happen (because that's all they know). Not so fast...they may not necessarily need Y. There may be other ways to better accomplish X without using Y.

Wouldn't it be amazing if there is new technology that makes it lossless and wireless? No one wants to be tethered to their device anymore. It's time to think outside of the box and come up with something new instead of limiting ourselves to current technology.

 

[Andrew73875]

Absolutely agree. In the meantime however:

 

[jaytv111]

Absolutely agree. In the meantime however:

View attachment 1959793

In other words, use the Lightning port or USB-C port on some iPads. Even Lightning headphones provide lossless quality!

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

The Macbook Pros and iPhones are completely different segment.

Why should Apple put something in on an iPhone that would discourage people from buying their AirPods? Apple has been bragging about how many Airpods they have been selling. It's printing them money. There's also the reason lightning remains on the iPhone despite everything else (iPads, Macs) have gone USB-C. Money (mfi licenses). iPhones are their main bread and butter that anything that affects the sales of their iPhone accessories can mean a lot of money they are not getting.

Macbook Pros are different. They're low volume seller, and Apple pushed them to cater for specific segments.

Yes, as usual, same old arguments. 3.5 makes perfect sense where Apple includes it and doesn't make any sense where Apple excludes it. It's antiquated, ancient technology where it is deprecated and tech buyers are dumb for wishing new Apple tech would revive it... but Apple is not dumb for including it where they include it... even investing new, valuable time in it to improve it where it is included.

A chunk of us always rationalizes whatever Apple decides- no matter what that is. What is for sale right now is the one and only RIGHT mix of features and benefits for everyone. If enough rumors pile up to make us believe Apple is going to flip on something previously ridiculed, some will start commenting with middling phrases like "I'll need to see it" and "It's kind of growing on me." When Apple rolls out the thing, it's "Shut up and take my money" and "How did we ever get by without this?"

IF Apple were to roll out this hypothetical iPhone 14 and- much like reviving "legacy" (but actually mainstream useful) ports on latest & greatest MBpros- they revived the headphone jack so it would be POSSIBLE to actually hear the lossless music service they are pushing without a dongle, the mountain of those who have spun "antiquated, stupid, useless, needless, 99% don't want/need" and/or seem more preoccupied with maximizing corporate profits than delivering tangible utility for Apple product buyers, would certainly not be calling Apple stupid for the revival. History shows over and over that for many it's simply "whatever Apple wants to choose FOR us." And whatever THAT is, it is the one and only right thing for ALL consumers.

I'm convinced some of the very same people would flip to gushing about how nice it is to have the built-in option to be able to listen to true lossless without needing a dongle... while perhaps shooting some reference to how the stupid people that wanted this can finally shut up about it (I did see a bit of this with the return of useful MBpro ports).

Ironically, IF Apple did it, those who believe either of the other 2 options is superior would be completely unaffected. They could keep listening to audio exactly as they do now. If their favored way is better, they would simply continue enjoying the better way. But that doesn't stop that crowd from passionately arguing against something that is desired by other, fellow consumers... even if it would have zero effect on them.

Those WANTING 3.5 are NOT trying to force those happy with the other options to go wired. That's only a one-way argument on this issue. Those wanting 3.5 simply want a good, handy, "just works" feature revived so that latest & greatest Apple iDevices can do something older Apple iDevices can do without dongles. And no, this has nothing to do with SCSI ports and floppy drives, etc. 3.5 jacks deliver HIGHER QUALITY sound than Bluetooth can. If floppy drives delivered better quality storage & speed than SSD or HDD, I'd get on that revival train too. If SCSI delivered better than today's options, I'd get on that revival train. However, there is NO argument at all about bluetooths inability to deliver full lossless. The bandwidth is simply not there.

Those arguing against this consumer want are simultaneously arguing for LOWER QUALITY sound and/or "good enough" sound (OR making a "dongles are good for us consumers" argument)... until, of course, Apple rolls out something that delivers full lossless to our ears. And then the passionate argument to buy that product will roar so we can all hear lossless to the fullest. Until Apple delivers something (probably proprietary), 99% don't need, etc. But when Apple DOES deliver, we'll all need to buy it because "I can easily hear the difference in quality", "it is so much better than crappy old bluetooth", etc.

Cue up some Sonny & Cher: "...and the beat goes on... the beat goes on..."

 

[Andrew73875]

In other words, use the Lightning port or USB-C port on some iPads. Even Lightning headphones provide lossless quality!

In other words, we will see 3.5 mm headphone jack in the next iPhone ;-) Just like on new Macs.

 

[Andrew73875]

And no, this has nothing to do with SCSI ports and floppy drives, etc. 3.5 jacks deliver HIGHER QUALITY sound than Bluetooth can

Those arguing against this consumer want are simultaneously arguing for LOWER QUALITY sound and/or "good enough" sound

Exactly. This standard is simply providing higher quality sound. Software is ready for it as well. Apple also agrees that people like high quality sound and it's good for their business:

“We have every song in our catalog available in Lossless to us delivered by the industry, but the challenge is it doesn’t play on any headphone in the world over Bluetooth or any wireless connection..."

Apple Music’s Spatial Audio push helps the company differentiate itself in a commoditized market. With every major music streaming service maintaining the same catalog of songs, an improved and easily noticeable audio experience would help the company separate itself from its competitors like Spotify.

 

[jaytv111]

In other words, we will see 3.5 mm headphone jack in the next iPhone ;-) Just like on new Macs.

In other words, we will not see 3.5 mm headphone jack in the next iPhone ;-) Just like on new iPhones, iPads, Apple TVs, Homepods, Apple Watches, and Airpods.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Andrew, while I share your passionate wish for a 3.5mm revival, I do not see it happening... even if Apple seems to be talking out of both sides of their mouth in the exhibit you've posted. This is far from the first time that Apple says one thing but then does something else. See "who needs an iPod with a color screen?" and endless ridicule of phablet phone screens while clinging to "perfect" 3.5" and then "perfect" 4" screens, etc.

Why won't they revive 3.5mm?

Very simple: it's more profitable to sell AirPods over and over and/or a proprietary lighting-connection dongle than include a port that readily lets ANY phones/buds from ANY manufacturer "just work"... AND have a better chance at delivering better-quality sound.

So, obviously, I (very passionately) wish right with you- my new iPad Mini 6 would seem pretty much PERFECT to me if it kept the 3.5mm jack that was in prior versions- but I have near zero expectations of a 3.5mm revival in iDevices.

INSTEAD, as rumors already swirl about it, I expect Apple to roll out a proprietary wireless standard with the bandwidth for full lossless and that hopefully addresses the other shortcomings of bluetooth too. And then they will get to very profitably resell everyone on buying replacement AirPods PRO/MAX 3 or 4 to gain features that "just worked" perfectly fine with good old 3.5mm... but could not possibly work with bluetooth. Of course, that (non) "standard" will probably require the purchases of brand new iPhones, iPads, Apple TVs, Homepods and Apple Watches too because it will rely on the "innovative new $1 chip to accomplish this amazing sound, never available before in ANY device."

And the crowd who passionately argues against 3.5mm now- even if its revival would not affect them at all- will then jump right on the new Apple PRO/MAX buds/phones bandwagon by arguing FOR re-buying AirPods/Phones again by putting down exactly what is wrong with bluetooth.

Again, cue up that Sonny & Cher classic.

 

[ian87w]

Yes, as usual, same old arguments. 3.5 makes perfect sense where Apple includes it and doesn't make any sense where Apple excludes it. It's antiquated, ancient technology where it is deprecated and tech buyers are dumb for wishing new Apple tech would revive it... but Apple is not dumb for including it where they include it... even investing new, valuable time in it to improve it where it is included.

A chunk of us always rationalizes whatever Apple decides- no matter what that is. What is for sale right now is the one and only RIGHT mix of features and benefits for everyone. If enough rumors pile up to make us believe Apple is going to flip on something previously ridiculed, some will start commenting with middling phrases like "I'll need to see it" and "It's kind of growing on me." When Apple rolls out the thing, it's "Shut up and take my money" and "How did we ever get by without this?"

IF Apple were to roll out this hypothetical iPhone 14 and- much like reviving "legacy" (but actually mainstream useful) ports on latest & greatest MBpros- they revived the headphone jack so it would be POSSIBLE to actually hear the lossless music service they are pushing without a dongle, the mountain of those who have spun "antiquated, stupid, useless, needless, 99% don't want/need" and/or seem more preoccupied with maximizing corporate profits than delivering tangible utility for Apple product buyers, would certainly not be calling Apple stupid for the revival. History shows over and over that for many it's simply "whatever Apple wants to choose FOR us." And whatever THAT is, it is the one and only right thing for ALL consumers.

I'm convinced some of the very same people would flip to gushing about how nice it is to have the built-in option to be able to listen to true lossless without needing a dongle... while perhaps shooting some reference to how the stupid people that wanted this can finally shut up about it (I did see a bit of this with the return of useful MBpro ports).

Ironically, IF Apple did it, those who believe either of the other 2 options is superior would be completely unaffected. They could keep listening to audio exactly as they do now. If their favored way is better, they would simply continue enjoying the better way. But that doesn't stop that crowd from passionately arguing against something that is desired by other, fellow consumers... even if it would have zero effect on them.

Those WANTING 3.5 are NOT trying to force those happy with the other options to go wired. That's only a one-way argument on this issue. Those wanting 3.5 simply want a good, handy, "just works" feature revived so that latest & greatest Apple iDevices can do something older Apple iDevices can do without dongles. And no, this has nothing to do with SCSI ports and floppy drives, etc. 3.5 jacks deliver HIGHER QUALITY sound than Bluetooth can. If floppy drives delivered better quality storage & speed than SSD or HDD, I'd get on that revival train too. If SCSI delivered better than today's options, I'd get on that revival train. However, there is NO argument at all about bluetooths inability to deliver full lossless. The bandwidth is simply not there.

Those arguing against this consumer want are simultaneously arguing for LOWER QUALITY sound and/or "good enough" sound (OR making a "dongles are good for us consumers" argument)... until, of course, Apple rolls out something that delivers full lossless to our ears. And then the passionate argument to buy that product will roar so we can all hear lossless to the fullest. Until Apple delivers something (probably proprietary), 99% don't need, etc. But when Apple DOES deliver, we'll all need to buy it because "I can easily hear the difference in quality", "it is so much better than crappy old bluetooth", etc.

Cue up some Sonny & Cher: "...and the beat goes on... the beat goes on..."

I don't follow your argument.

It's simple.
Apple wants to sell airpods with every iPhone they sold. Including a headphone jack might nudge people not to buy Airpods as they can just use a cheap wired headset. Ie. Putting back the headphone jack can make less money for Apple from loss sales of Airpods. So Apple will never do it. Apple doesn't care about what you (or I) like. But Apple do like us buying more stuff.

The MacBook Pros are niche laptop targeted towards Professionals, including sound engineers and artists. Thus the higher powered 3.5mm jack. It's for a specific target market, and the low volume of it doesn't move the needle for Apple in terms of accessories sales.

Putting in 3.5mm jack on iphones will make a lot less money for Apple than putting 3.5mm jack on a MacBook Pro. The same reason why iphones are still using lightning instead of USB-C. It makes more money for Apple. What you or I prefer don't matter for Apple, it's all about which way that makes more money.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Very simple, instead of posting based on what is best for Apple, I post on what is best for Apple consumers. As "they don't care about what you (or I) like", I don't care about their drive to maximize every nickel of profitability. When buyers become overly concerned with maximizing the profits of the seller selling them, they are essentially shooting themselves in the foot. Buyers should prioritize the buying "bargain" OVER the seller motivation. It's on the sellers to work the other end of the equation. That doesn't mean Apple shouldn't make a profit, etc. but I generally assume people reading these comments are Apple consumers, not Apple accounting, Apples Board of Directors and/or Apple Executives with bonuses tied to maximizing profitability.

If including or not including 3.5mm is strictly driven by Apple wanting to sell more AirPods, it shouldn't be in Macs either... nor should some iDevices be switching to USB-C, nor should "legacy" ports be resurrected in latest MBpros (when Apple could sell us a high-margin Apple dongle instead).

Where I think you are 100% right is that the motivation FOR profit drove killing this jack in iDevices... not for reasons spun at the time. Apple DOES generally seem to have a goal of delivering "better" quality instead of "good enough," which is what one must embrace with this decision in arguing bluetooth > wired. Bluetooths lone (consumer) advantage is no wire. But for that one tangible benefit, we pay a price of better quality of sound, lag, limitations driven by battery life, relatively limited "just works" usefulness beyond computing tech, etc.

Until bluetooth or some other wireless option overcomes all those weaknesses, I- as consumer- can completely share OPs wish of desiring a revival of 3.5mm in Apple iDevices. Do I expect that to actually happen? NO. Why? See post #42. But, given the option as a consumer- not a board member or bonus-hungry executive of a corporation selling this stuff- I'd much rather have it return at least until something TANGIBLY better can be rolled out... especially since consumers who apparently are satisfied with "good enough" quality via Bluetooth would be completely unaffected by that revival.

 

[mectojic]

My iPhone SE 1 with a headphone jack is getting old, but can still manage iOS 15 quite well. But sooner or later, I'll be forced to switch from Apple to something else...

The removal of the 3.5mm standard (standard amongst literally every audio/gaming/portable/monitor/computer device ever made) is a tragedy. Apple wasn't valuing its customers. Promoting Airpods only is greed, I've always said it.

 

[VaruLV]

I wouldnt mind despite all the naysayers being in majority.

Now, one in iPad Pro is a MUST, or at least second USB4/TB4 port to compensate for it.

But its Apple, they love selling us dongles.

 

[Mr_Brightside_@]

Nothing precludes them from selling accessories and having a headphone jack. Those who need mobility more than audio quality will continue using AirPods. Which are the best on the market considering their W3 and H1 chip. People even can have both: wireless for gym and commute, and wired for home (or airplane, etc). They will sell even more headphones.








All these would be valid points if Apple didn't already add lossless quality to Apple Music. This means that for Apple there are enough people who care about music quality to justify adding lossless. Also they wouldn't publish this on their website:

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

It's their competitive advantage. And adding lossless audio to a streaming service is not that easy and can't be just done overnight. It requires more bandwidth, more storage etc etc. Spotify couldn't do it for example.

If it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't do it. It's obvious that Apple will implement a headphone jack in upcoming releases. Otherwise they wouldn't even bother with adding lossless to iOS.

Can I hold you to this?

 

[Andrew73875]

Kanye West's 'Donda 2' Album Not Coming to Apple Music

Kanye West, now known officially as "Ye," does not plan to release his next album, "Donda 2," on streaming services that include...

www.macrumors.com

Kanye West decided not to wait for the next iPhone and made his own player with a 3.5mm headphone jack?

 

[TiggrToo]

it wasn't worth it, they wouldn't do it. It's obvious that Apple will implement a headphone jack in upcoming releases. Otherwise they wouldn't even bother with adding lossless to iOS.

Or they'll create lossless wireless Airpods etc.

 

[engelke2010]

It would be a good business decision for Apple to add a 3.5 mm headphone jack with advanced support for high-impedance headphones (like on new MacBooks) to the new iPhone.

1) Apple would make their product line cleaner by allowing to use the same set of headphones with MacBooks and iPhones.

2) Headphone jack will allow to listen to Apple Music lossless (Bluetooth is not capable of transmitting lossless). Therefore, helping to win a market share for Apple Music.

3) It would be possible to listen to music while charging your iPhone.


What are your thoughts?

I wish they would, but won’t happen. I’ve read rumors that even the lightning port will go away in the next few years.