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simonsi

Contributor
Jan 3, 2014
4,851
735
Auckland
So I maintain that phone cameras will continue to improve until they are too good to tell the difference with human eyes.

This. For most peoples uses we are there with DSLR resolution already, tbh most images taken by any imaging device type (inc DSLRs), don't need to be any more than 6Mp - they are never printed at more than 6"x 4" and provide an acceptable zoom ability when viewed on the taking device.

Given those parameters phone camera's are largely already there and catching up in quality and pseudo-DSLR image features. Yes physics means that DSLRs will always have an advantage but that may become increasingly theoretical and less of a practical advantage as most people who start out with phone cameras will increasingly find they remain "good enough" to make the move to a DSLR an increasingly marginal and relatively expensive choice.
 

v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
925
749
Earth (usually)
Well, the limit does get to be the human interface. the Sony NEX still cameras are very powerful, but the touch screen is nowhere near as useful to me as the knobs on my Nikon. That DF actually looks appealing for the additional knobs for controls I know. It's way better than searching a menu system, in my opinion at least.

Indeed, that seems to be the limit on shrinking phones. They got to a certain size, and then people wanted something bigger for ease of use. It's one of my big questions on smart watches. So how do you address that.

I think they will continue to shrink pixels on screens until it is no longer relevant to people. That 2500 pixel smart phone has to be getting close. Also, when you look at how we see edges and how light acts, anti-aliasing seems like it will be around in some form.

Referencing my Stephen Hawking comment earlier, the whole theory of photons started with the idea that light exists in discreet units of energy. Just as you could eventually cut carbon down to a single atom, you could get a single photon. So, at some level, the universe could be considered digital, but that is well beyond what we could perceive or understand easily as it gets really weird out at the edge. Also, I am not sure if there is some discrete packet of time.

Finally, what about the possibility of sub-quark particles (quarks make up protons, neutrons, electrons and other particles in that neighborhood). Sheldon Glasgow remarked that quarks "felt about right" for the ultimate basic building blocks, but could not rule out the possibility of something below that.

And THAT takes us way, way off target. Astronomically so, in fact. By going small, we got big :)
 

AQUADock

macrumors 65816
Mar 20, 2011
1,049
37
To be honest a lot of what I'm reading is going way over my head! Lets get back to practical examples.

Shot with iPhone 6 plus, edited in LR.

[url=https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3858/15165374247_648f3125e9_b.jpg]Image[/url]IMG_1769 by apple fanboy1, on Flickr

Shot with D7100, 14-24 mm 2.8 and edited in LR

[url=https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3893/15165213190_a30c496910_b.jpg]Image[/url]_DSC7512 by apple fanboy1, on Flickr

What do you guys think?

Both are good but the DSLR has better dynamic range and colour, no banding and more detail. A good comparison shot would be a portrait.
 

Oracle1729

macrumors 6502a
Feb 4, 2009
638
0
What do you guys think?

I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove. It's bright sunlight, easy shooting conditions, a picture without a whole lot of detail, just some light texture. And in the tiny web images, you can't even see the detail of that texture. As Aquadoc says, the DSLR has a very slight edge. If you'd shown me one picture, I couldn't have said which camera shot it. But now how about a shot with less light? Or with a more detailed subject. The colours are quite different between the two images. It doesn't matter on those pics, but how do the two cameras render flesh tones?

Here's a picture I shot with a Nikon D90 and kit lens, camera in "push here dummy" mode, in Spring 2009 with a 100% crop of a small area. I have printed this 20x30 and every drop of dew on the flower stands out. Please post some 100% crops from your sample images and let's see how an iPhone 6 compares to a 2008 model DSLR.

flower_detail.jpg
 

Oracle1729

macrumors 6502a
Feb 4, 2009
638
0
Ok, let me address just this part of your post, first.

Thank you for taking the time to post that. I wasn't aware that digital cameras had ever used multiple filters over a black and white sensor. I've actually used a film writer which creates slides from digital files by displaying the colour channels on a very high res black and white screen and taking 3 exposures with a camera onto slide film through filters. The exact opposite of what you described. It's too bad that now that we have 4k screens cheaply available I don't need to "print" slides anymore.

I'm sorry you had to type so much just so I could learn about the early way to do digital color. I didn't really need the basics, my level of how digital images work is fairly high, my background is actually computer science, not photography. I did learn something though, so your time is honestly appreciated.


In the end, it is the same idea though. Instead of moving pixels, a digital DOF effect might apply gaussian blur based on distance from lens (which could be read from some sci-fi autofocus system or something).

I understand, but now you need a camera which stores some sort of focus information about the whole frame to then decide what's in or out of focus. Even the best DSRL autofocus systems have 51 sensors, which means you don't have a lot of steps for distance information to put nuances into how you blur. Of course you can make guesses to have it sort of look like a good approximation. But by the time you put all of that into a camera module that has to have a $15 price ceiling, you have to wonder if it's worth it at all. As I said, I think the blurry backgrounds is more of a gimmick and the overall image quality of SLRs can't ever be matched by cell phones.

Just like the first CCD was 100 pixels by 100 pixels by 8 bits (monochrome), and grew into the sensor you love in your Nikon, so do other features. There are still artifacts from that 36 million pixel sensor. They arrange the pixels, they make them scan faster and so on.

The electronics have gotten a lot better over the past 10-15 years, obviously, and likely will continue to do so. But the optics haven't really changed in the past 50 years (save for minor improvements from computer modelling of the lenses and more precise manufacturing). You cannot resolve an image on an iPhone-sizes sensor as well as a 24x36mm sensor and this is unlikely to change in the next several decades without major breakthroughs in physics. Maybe if you shoot the picture under oil?

All of this high end stuff will eventually trickle down to smaller cameras though. Just like the original DSLR stats wouldn't compare well to a cell phone today (1987 1.3 mega pixel sensor)

Here is an image from one http://eocamera.jemcgarvey.com/img/HET2.jpg

Except for possible trouble with the lack of dynamic range, I'd say a 3 megapixel Nikon D1 from 1999 will easily beat an iPhone 6 from 15 years later at making 8x10 prints.

I'm not sure what camera your sample is from, but as you've said at the very beginning, they were very low res and low quality. I remembering going to a trade show around 1996 and seeing digital backs in the $20,000 price range with horrible image quality. Look a few years later to cameras that are still 15 years old and the iPhone hasn't caught up.

So I maintain that phone cameras will continue to improve until they are too good to tell the difference with human eyes. If folks what shallow DOF and Bokeh to go along with that, they will find a way to do so. This, too, will eventually get too good to tell.

Replacing 800 grams of glass with 2 grams of [whatever magic material] is not likely to give you an image that's too good to tell the difference with. And that needs a lot more than a simple innovation and a little research to change.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,009
56,027
Behind the Lens, UK
I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove. It's bright sunlight, easy shooting conditions, a picture without a whole lot of detail, just some light texture. And in the tiny web images, you can't even see the detail of that texture. As Aquadoc says, the DSLR has a very slight edge. If you'd shown me one picture, I couldn't have said which camera shot it. But now how about a shot with less light? Or with a more detailed subject. The colours are quite different between the two images. It doesn't matter on those pics, but how do the two cameras render flesh tones?

Here's a picture I shot with a Nikon D90 and kit lens, camera in "push here dummy" mode, in Spring 2009 with a 100% crop of a small area. I have printed this 20x30 and every drop of dew on the flower stands out. Please post some 100% crops from your sample images and let's see how an iPhone 6 compares to a 2008 model DSLR.

Image

Okay, will do over the weekend. Also I'm not trying to prove anything. Just showing the results in some as you say easy photo taking circumstances.
 

robgendreau

macrumors 68040
Jul 13, 2008
3,471
339
While I agree the phones will improve, I wonder about the glass being the limiting factor. That applies to any digital camera, though. And as phones get better, won't DSLRs and M43s and whatever else pops up?

OTOH every DSLR is a computer. And some are rather crappy compared to phones, and not just with lame filter effects or interface. While a DSLR with good glass and a big sensor might have an advantage in some ways, it's still gotta get from raw 00111s to an image, and that's a computer problem. Who knows whether some of that tech may trump any gains from the glass and sensor size. It's still an approximation of what your brain perceives in any case.
 

v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
925
749
Earth (usually)
In the 19th century, a famous scientist was once asked the, with the breakneck pace the mysteries of the universe were being unraveled, was there anything we would just NEVER be able to answer.

He though about it a moment and then confidently answered that we could never possibly know the composition of the most distant stars. Later that year, spectroscopy was discovered and we did in fact learn the composition of the most distant stars.

Here was a Nobel physicist, in his area of expertise, and his prediction of never didn't even make it to Christmas.

give it 20 years. A lot of the photography stuff is really just getting started for smaller cameras. No one was even TRYING to use a cell phone to outplay a good prime lens with Zeis glass until recently.
 

Symtex

macrumors 6502a
Jan 27, 2005
515
2
Under the best conditions Iphone and DSLR picture can be very similar to the naked eye. Its under low light (high iso) or where you want a very shallow depth of field that you will see the difference. I am not even adding the fact that you have multiple type of lens on a DSLR and faster focusing.

Either way, for most people, its just a lot more convenient to take an iphone to take picture, It does a pretty good job under good conditions. I have 2 DSLR and a tons of lens and I still reach for my phone once in a while to take some quick shot.
 

Oracle1729

macrumors 6502a
Feb 4, 2009
638
0
In the 19th century, a famous scientist was once asked the, with the breakneck pace the mysteries of the universe were being unraveled, was there anything we would just NEVER be able to answer.

He though about it a moment and then confidently answered that we could never possibly know the composition of the most distant stars. Later that year, spectroscopy was discovered and we did in fact learn the composition of the most distant stars.

Here was a Nobel physicist, in his area of expertise, and his prediction of never didn't even make it to Christmas.

Well if he's such a famous scientist, who is he.

Oh yeah. You're talking about Auguste Comte who, in 1842, wrote:
Of all objects, the planets are those which appear to us under the least varied aspect. We see how we may determine their forms, their distances, their bulk, and their motions, but we can never known anything of their chemical or mineralogical structure; and, much less, that of organized beings
living on their surface ...


This was in his book, "The Positive Philosophy". He was not asked a question, and then thought for a while and gave an answer. This is not some scientist giving expert opinion on what will never be known. Auguste Comte was a French Philosopher and one of the earliest sociologists. He was in no way a scientist, had no basis at all for his guesses. The entire quote was pure hyperbole to emphasize a point in a philosophical argument.

Spectroscopy was not "discovered later that year". Issac Newton was doing experiments on Spectroscopy 200 years earlier. 30 years before Comte wrote his quote, there was a flurry of research into flame spectroscopy. And it was Robert Bunson in the 1860's who did major work into identifying specific elements by emission spectra. Again, your quote is off by 20 years.

Steller spectroscopy originated in 1898, so for that, you're off 6 decades from the quote you said was obsolete in a few months....but all distant galaxies show nearly identical compositions because we can't resolve individual stars and clusters of millions of stars taken together are homogenous.

So, as of 2014, it is still impossible to identify the compositions of distant stars. The best we can do is composition of distant galaxies. And that seems unlikely to change for the foreseeable future. So, even if your little story were true, which it's not, the "famous scientist" would still be right that we have no way to know the compositions of most distant stars. Because we can't resolve them.

By the way, the first Nobel Prize was awarded in 1901.

----------

While I agree the phones will improve, I wonder about the glass being the limiting factor. That applies to any digital camera, though. And as phones get better, won't DSLRs and M43s and whatever else pops up?

It's a combination of glass and sensor size. The glass has a certain resolving power, so the larger the sensor the better the image will be from any given lens. Just because the smaller sensor is magnifying the focused light from the lens that much more, the lens has to be that much better to compensate.

While a DSLR with good glass and a big sensor might have an advantage in some ways, it's still gotta get from raw 00111s to an image, and that's a computer problem.

I suppose that could be taken as an argument in favour of shooting raw images, but I really don't think any DSLRs (or iPhones, or P&S cameras) are really that limited by computing power.
 
Last edited:

v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
925
749
Earth (usually)
Ok, so I am recalling from a book I read 25 years ago, so forgive me if I don't quite have it right.

Newton's (or the romans before him) were studying light, not really spectroscopy for elemental analysis. That started with Franhofer, and moved on to Bunsen/Kisrchoff (sp?). William and Margaret Huggins did the first stellar spectroscopy in the 1860s.

I will just feely admit to being totally busted on Nobel prize thing. I got that one wrong. I would swear the reference was to a scientist, not a philosopher. Possibly one that had read Comte though.

-------------------------------------------

BUT
The iPhone 6+ camera is better than the iPhone 5 camera, which is better than the iPhone 3GS camera. Right?

So these cameras are getting better all the time. Right?

If they keep getting better every year, and humans do not develop super vision, then some day, camera phones will be better than human eyes, right?

Or is the other side of this argument that development is just going to stop someday soon? Because humans have been looking for better ways to capture images as far back as we have data on humans. This side of the zombie apocalypse, I do not see that changing.

Glass has a limit to resolving power in visible light. Who says the lens has to be glass? Who says we have to use visible light to gather data? Who says the only way to do this is on a CCD/CMOS style sensor?
 

Razeus

macrumors 603
Jul 11, 2008
5,358
2,054
The quality is in the size of the pixels, not the photos you take. iPhone quality is ok for what it is. DSLR, crop or full frame, is vastly superior, but vastly cumbersome. I've seen great photos come out of an iPhone. I've seen crap photos come out of a DSLR.
 

unplugme71

macrumors 68030
May 20, 2011
2,827
754
Earth
The best camera is the one you have on you.

DSLR's are big and bulky. I sold mine because I was satisfied with my iPhone 5S pictures. I also always carry my iPhone around.
 

VI™

macrumors 6502a
Aug 27, 2010
636
1
Shepherdsturd, WV
The photo is not the gear, is the photographer.

True, but it's more than saying a good photographer can take good pictures no matter what they use. If that was the case, we'd all be walking around with disposable cameras. A good photographer can take better pictures with better gear.
 

Symtex

macrumors 6502a
Jan 27, 2005
515
2
True, but it's more than saying a good photographer can take good pictures no matter what they use. If that was the case, we'd all be walking around with disposable cameras. A good photographer can take better pictures with better gear.

as long as you operate within the limits or dynamic range of an cell phone camera sensor, you will have very good result. A bigger sensor will always yield a better result but most people don't have the eye to see the difference. Another difference is with DSLR, you can control the depth of field better and change lenses. There is a reason why you don't see wedding photographer shooting with an iphone...
 

VI™

macrumors 6502a
Aug 27, 2010
636
1
Shepherdsturd, WV
as long as you operate within the limits or dynamic range of an cell phone camera sensor, you will have very good result. A bigger sensor will always yield a better result but most people don't have the eye to see the difference. Another difference is with DSLR, you can control the depth of field better and change lenses. There is a reason why you don't see wedding photographer shooting with an iphone...

A DSLR and DSLR like mirrorless cameras also have hotshoes and manual controls. You can use a flash or 100 flashes with a DSLR to capture photos you'd never be able to create using an iPhone. The only way that would be possible would be to use some very heavy editing and even then it may not be possible.

7060374169_3e710cf63b_b.jpg
 

dollystereo

macrumors 6502a
Oct 6, 2004
907
114
France
Finally, I think the phones are replacing the PS market, and would eventually completely replace it. For the pro / prosumer Real optics (glass) market, is not happening ever.
I think DSLR will be replaced by mirror less at some point tho...
 

Menel

Suspended
Aug 4, 2011
6,351
1,356
Finally, I think the phones are replacing the PS market, and would eventually completely replace it. For the pro / prosumer Real optics (glass) market, is not happening ever.
I think DSLR will be replaced by mirror less at some point tho...


This. Smartphones are a very adequate PS replacement for most consumers.

Mirror-less can/will replace DSLR as their are many pro's and few cons. But some companies are going to have to risk being disruptively innovative if they want to stay in front of this wave.
 

VI™

macrumors 6502a
Aug 27, 2010
636
1
Shepherdsturd, WV
This. Smartphones are a very adequate PS replacement for most consumers.

Mirror-less can/will replace DSLR as their are many pro's and few cons. But some companies are going to have to risk being disruptively innovative if they want to stay in front of this wave.

I'm interested in trying the Sony Alphas, but right now it seems size is more of a factor to manufactures and usability. The control scheme of my Canons (except the rebel line and even mostly the rebel line) are easier to get around where as each button has a function and I don't have to remove my eye from the finder. On the Olympus OM-D, changing the focus to the button other than the shutter had you using a tiny button with a bad tactile response that I had to awkwardly press with the tip of my thumb and changing other options required menu changes rather than just turning a wheel or pressing a button.

Once a mirrorless camera can provide the usability in the whole package it'll become even more enticing to DSLR users.
 

v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
925
749
Earth (usually)
This. Smartphones are a very adequate PS replacement for most consumers.

Mirror-less can/will replace DSLR as their are many pro's and few cons. But some companies are going to have to risk being disruptively innovative if they want to stay in front of this wave.

Yeah, I can agree with this. I like looking through the lens, but an EVF could do the trick. The big thing I would want is more physical controls. Navigating a touchscreen menu is slower, and I can FEEL my way to aperture or shutter adjustments, for example.

Photography isn't gear, but it helps by giving you access to features the lesser equipment does not have ( which is why we pay for better equipment. It isn't because we're gear addicts - it only seems that way :) )
 

The Bad Guy

macrumors 65816
Oct 2, 2007
1,141
3,539
Australia
A DSLR and DSLR like mirrorless cameras also have hotshoes and manual controls. You can use a flash or 100 flashes with a DSLR to capture photos you'd never be able to create using an iPhone. The only way that would be possible would be to use some very heavy editing and even then it may not be possible.

Image

This.

If you're only taking photos of your cat, then the iPhone is awesome. If you need something, well…I dunno, adequate, please tell me how to shoot with an eight light setup with a phone.
 
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