Iphone users who say Flash is dying, or useless, or crappy software...

[plinden]

Aah, the irony. Besides the fact that the video you posted of HTML 5 is... bingo, in flash!

Of course it was. It was on Youtube after all. What's your point?

Did you watch the video though? Are you just interested in Flash because it's Flash, or are you interested in the content it's presenting?

Flash isn't ready for the iPhone. It's not ready for the Mac or Linux (and a couple of months ago I had to deal with a problem with Firefox crashing on my brother's Windows PC - caused by ... can you guess? Hint: It was solved by reinstalling Flash).

Adobe has shown no expertise in getting it ready for any version of OS X. Until it has shown it can make it work, keep it away from the iPhone.

 

[MattWylde]

Flash is a huge loophole in Apple's app-aproval concept.

If they allow Flash, all their rules and standards for the app store instantly become pointless.

That's it. Game over. Never gonna happen.

I read that same thing in an article yesterday. That flash developers would be able to create apps through the web that iPhone users could utilize, thus bypassing the app store. The App store is Apple's cash cow...I agree with you, they will never let this happen.

It is very unfortunate that money is what is going to keep us from enjoying our phones. The fact that every other phone company signed on is re-assurance that this app store theory is valid. Palm Pre and Mytouch the closest thing to the iPhone in terms of functionality and hardware. They were obviously not concerned with the battery drain or performance issues and have agreed to allow flash on those devices. The difference here is that Palm has a far inferior app store....so web applications will not really hurt them financially too terribly (in fact I believe it will help them gain ground in the smartphone market). The App store would no longer be a selling advantage for Apple.

 

[VenusianSky]

According to people on here, the following things are dying:

Flash
optical media
hard disk drives
broadcast TV
newspapers
magazines
Sprint

Haven't you heard that since the coming of the internet, people can now see into the future and have become experts in knowledge of anything and everything.

"I read the internet forums, therefore I am."

 

[Plutonius]

...are all just crying "sour grapes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sour_grapes

/rant.

It's a non-issue. Apple does not want flash in the iPhone / iPod Touch and has stated their position since day 1. If you really need flash, don't get an iPhone or iPod Touch.

 

[STEVESKI07]

What does a song by Leatherface have to do with people complaining about flash?

 

[iPhone 62S]

Flash will be obsolete when HTML 5 is fully developed and embraced by the major browsers.

 

[firewood]

1) You CAN view Flash on the iPhone. Just get an RDP or VNC app from the App store (there are more than a dozen), and remote view your favorite browser with plugins running on a PC or Mac (which requires 1 GB or more of memory to run nicely).

2) Flash wasn't architected or implemented with great battery life in mind and also isn't standards compliant. Stuff with those two characteristics that will eventually get displaced by "greener" and more standard technology (HTML5, etc.).

 

[kdarling]

Apple does not want flash in the iPhone / iPod Touch and has stated their position since day 1.

Just another myth. Apple never said any such thing.

What Jobs said at the shareholders' meeting in March 2008, was that Flash Lite wasn't enough, and desktop Flash was too much to work on today's handheld devices. As many reporters quoted him:

"There's this missing product in the middle," Jobs said. "It just doesn't exist."

And as another person who was present said:

"(Jobs) later reiterated that Apple used Adobe extensively in its Macs and that the relationship was fine, and the iPhone issue was not an Adobe-specific issue because no company had the necessary technology."

These statements were then warped by the usual bunch of headline makers into some huge anti-Adobe sentiment.

I'm not saying that Apple would accept Flash on the iPhone. But they also never said an outright no.

 

[crisg]

It's a non-issue. Apple does not want flash in the iPhone / iPod Touch and has stated their position since day 1. If you really need flash, don't get an iPhone or iPod Touch.

It's a big issue. Apple sells devices it touts as the highest, most advanced mobile devices available. I bought my iPhone on this premise. That they refuse to evolve to support a standard established long before the iPhone was even dreamt up and subsequently cause a huge amount of web content to become unaccesible to the millions of customers who pay a premium for their mobile device is... unacceptable.

Your inability to see this, and your subsequent default to the "Apple says no, always said no, and if you dont like it, dont buy it" attitude is indicative
of lack of free & independent thought and inability to contest authority.
Think of what the world would look like if we all said "if you dont like it, don't buy it/live there/do that."

 

[Rodimus Prime]

It's a non-issue. Apple does not want flash in the iPhone / iPod Touch and has stated their position since day 1. If you really need flash, don't get an iPhone or iPod Touch.

Sounds like the same BS excuse I heard before for something else
*Cough* MMS *Cough*

 

[Consultant]

Wirelessly posted (Iphone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7C144 Safari/528.16)



Its not going to go anywhere. The iphone must evolve to support flash... As the websites that use it, as well as the computers that support it, presently, far outnumber iphone users.

Wrong.

The only reason flash becomes popular is because when Apple introduced quicktime, MS didn't have their own licensable software, so MS pushed flash.

Now MS has its own thing, MS will try to push its own thing. For example there is NO FLASH on Microsoft latest portable media player.

If you do HTML5 it's platform independent.

 

[crisg]

Wrong.

The only reason flash becomes popular is because when Apple introduced quicktime, MS didn't have their own licensable software, so MS pushed flash.

Now MS has its own thing, MS will try to push its own thing. For example there is NO FLASH on Microsoft latest portable media player.

If you do HTML5 it's platform independent.

what, precisely, about my statement is wrong? It seems you quoted me but went onto talk about something else.

My statement: iPhone must evolve to support a standard used by a ton of websites.

Your statement: ________________?

 

[BaldiMac]

what, precisely, about my statement is wrong? It seems you quoted me but went onto talk about something else.

My statement: iPhone must evolve to support a standard used by a ton of websites.

Your statement: ________________?

Do you believe that HTML 5 will eventually be a better solution than Flash for most of it's current uses?

Some people do. And blocking Flash through addons such as ClickToFlash on Safari and FlashBlock on Firefox (7 million+ downloads), in addition to major companies such as Apple not supporting Flash on their devices, will hasten the transition. Simply, saying "HTML 5 is not fully supported now, so everyone should use Flash" is shortsighted if you want the benefits of HTML 5 in the near future.

That said, I do not think that Apple has a philosophical problem with Flash, except as an application runtime. I just think they do not believe it is currently good enough for the iPhone.

 

[kylos]

I develop and produce panorama websites and content. Apple has dropped the ball with QT support of panoramas (not in QT 10 in Snow Leopard (requires running QT 7), no iphone support for their own tech and very bad Windows Vista 64 bit support, including non-playing panos) has caused me to switch to Flash-based panos. Javascript solutions are plain ugly and applets are on their way out, so Flash is really the only option. I'd love to see a good HTML5 pano player, but until that happens and there is 95% market penetration of HTML5, I'm sticking with flash. Unfortunately, I don't see either condition being met anytime soon, so that leaves presentation on a popular mobile platform a lost opportunity.

Some of these arguments against flash on the iphone border on the ridiculous. Flash is used for annoying adverts? And yet you long for the day when HTML5 canvas + js apps put Flash down for good? So apparently HTML5 will have the magic ability to distinguish between annoying content and useful content. That's good to know. Truth is, advertisers will simply use the most widely adopted multimedia platform for their annoying adverts. Some even use z-index and javascript to target an even wider consumer base.

And when IronLogik claims that standards and HTML5 mean better cross-platform support when compared to proprietary plugins, I think they've missed a good portion of internet history. The problem with standards is that each implementor has the capability (and often, financial motivation) to not fully adopt the standard. IE, Netscape, Firefox, Safari, etc. all fail to conform to standards at some point (some much more than others), and even when they do conform, ambiguities in the standards can cause differing interpretations and presentation of content. Developing with HTML and CSS can be a nightmare when trying to create a semantically simple, non-bloated site that is cross-browser compatible. For all the problems with Flash, Adobe being the sole implementor makes Flash one of the most consistent web development platforms across browsers and operating systems.

 

[kylos]

Do you believe that HTML 5 will eventually be a better solution than Flash for most of it's current uses?

Some people do. And blocking Flash through addons such as ClickToFlash on Safari and FlashBlock on Firefox (7 million+ downloads), in addition to major companies such as Apple not supporting Flash on their devices, will hasten the transition. Simply, saying "HTML 5 is not fully supported now, so everyone should use Flash" is shortsighted if you want the benefits of HTML 5 in the near future.

That said, I do not think that Apple has a philosophical problem with Flash, except as an application runtime. I just think they do not believe it is currently good enough for the iPhone.

You're asking developers to abandon existing technologies when there isn't a suitable replacement? Not going to happen. These ideological technology wars only end up hurting developers and users. I and my clients really didn't like it when QT, an established platform, suddenly stopped displaying panos without warning, resulting in broken pages. I would love to have a better solution than flash, but for the time being I don't, and popping up a big blue box in place of my content is frustrating. HTML5 will come online eventually, and if it's good it will see widespread adoption, but for the time being, I'd really like my content to work.

 

[detoxguy]

Any web developers who believe Flash is a "standard" don't know what they are talking about. It is a plug in and is dependent on users having the plug-in. The fact that most browsers include a version pre-installed does not qualify it as a standard.

Flash is tool that adds to the bloating of browser size, slows the viewer experience by over-using system resources, and actually inhibits design. If a website has a purpose other that pure entertainment then relying on a non-standard browser plug-in just shows poor planning and a lack of vision.

My personal opinions on Flash aside, the writing is on the wall, with the increasing percentage of users accessing the internet on netbooks and smartphones, and even MIDs it is clear that the way people are getting this information is changing and delivering your message/commerce in a bloated resource hogging manner is short sighted. In the near future the majority of internet users will not be sitting at home in front of a ridiculously over-specced desktop or laptop but will be using low power/mobile devices....get with the program.

Lastly, any developer with any sense of UI design will throw in a quick flash detection script and provide their content in an alternate format...anything less is just inexcusable...

 

[Konz]

I love how the thread starter is being a big crybaby while attempting to call other people out, and he STILL hasn't demonstrated any knowledge of HTML 5 vs. Flash...

Classic forum BS

 

[Rampant.A.I.]

My god, this thread reads like a maternity ward.

My head hurts.

 

[BaldiMac]

You're asking developers to abandon existing technologies when there isn't a suitable replacement? Not going to happen. These ideological technology wars only end up hurting developers and users. I and my clients really didn't like it when QT, an established platform, suddenly stopped displaying panos without warning, resulting in broken pages. I would love to have a better solution than flash, but for the time being I don't, and popping up a big blue box in place of my content is frustrating. HTML5 will come online eventually, and if it's good it will see widespread adoption, but for the time being, I'd really like my content to work.

When did I ask "developers to abandon existing technologies when there isn't a suitable replacement?" I was talking about something that an end user could do to hasten the deployment of HTML 5. I don't expect developers to abandon Flash if Flash is the best tool for the job. Sometimes it is, which is why I use the two flash blocking plugins I mentioned. One click and I can see the content.

It is definitely not the best tool for displaying video. It's only advantage is its ubiquity. What are the other main uses for Flash? Games? Most are not geared towards a touch screen anyway. Ads? Flash or HTML 5 makes no difference. Block them either way. Interactive menus? Already possible through existing web standards.

And then we have legitimate uses for Flash, such as your panoramas. Even you would have to admit that it's a pretty fringe use. Sucks for you that it's not supported on the iPhone, but it's not a problem I have come across as a user of mobile Safari. The 3 or 4 times that I have come across Flash content that I have wanted to display and couldn't in the two years that I have had an iPod touch could have been done in current web standards.

I'm not trying to say my use case fits everybody. I'm just responding to the OP as to why I personally do not demand that the iPhone OS support flash. It's not sour grapes or fanboyism. I've been blocking flash since before the iPhone, because it's often misused and a detriment to an open web.

 

[crisg]

I love how the thread starter is being a big crybaby while attempting to call other people out, and he STILL hasn't demonstrated any knowledge of HTML 5 vs. Flash...

Classic forum BS

The "thread starter" doesn't need to demonstrate knowledge of a format war.

I stated that those who are saying no flash for iPhone is a good thing are really just rationalizing the reason a huge amount of web content isn't available to them.

Any attempts to shift the discussion toward whether flash is better than html5 is misguided and downright annoying.

Did I say one was better than the other? Did I say anything, OTHER, than "flash = sour grapes" to those who respond to its absence from the iPhone as "a good thing"?

I have made my opinion clear: the iPhone should not be a battleground for the html5 vs flash "war"; flash websites simply won't go away, and I won't stop using them, nor will the rest of you, anytime soon.... so Apple, make it HAPPEN.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Do you believe that HTML 5 will eventually be a better solution than Flash for most of it's current uses?

Some people do. And blocking Flash through addons such as ClickToFlash on Safari and FlashBlock on Firefox (7 million+ downloads), in addition to major companies such as Apple not supporting Flash on their devices, will hasten the transition. Simply, saying "HTML 5 is not fully supported now, so everyone should use Flash" is shortsighted if you want the benefits of HTML 5 in the near future.

That said, I do not think that Apple has a philosophical problem with Flash, except as an application runtime. I just think they do not believe it is currently good enough for the iPhone.

The only reason Flashblockers are so popular is not because of flash sucks but because of flash adds. First it was adblockers and the advisers had to get around that so they went to flash. Flash is not why people block but more it is to deal with the damn annoying flash adds. Easier to block all flash than it is to figure out which are flash ads and which are not.

 

[IronLogik]

And when IronLogik claims that standards and HTML5 mean better cross-platform support when compared to proprietary plugins, I think they've missed a good portion of internet history. The problem with standards is that each implementor has the capability (and often, financial motivation) to not fully adopt the standard. IE, Netscape, Firefox, Safari, etc. all fail to conform to standards at some point (some much more than others), and even when they do conform, ambiguities in the standards can cause differing interpretations and presentation of content. Developing with HTML and CSS can be a nightmare when trying to create a semantically simple, non-bloated site that is cross-browser compatible. For all the problems with Flash, Adobe being the sole implementor makes Flash one of the most consistent web development platforms across browsers and operating systems.

Standards compliance is a lot more popular now than it was. The only major web browser that isn't compliant in most ways, or doesn't aim to be standards compliant is internet explorer.

Firefox, Safari, Opera and all other web browsers that use WebKit or Gecko are ready and waiting for HTML 5 implementation.

The past isn't the future isn't the present. Right now, standards compliance is a huge deal. In terms of consistency. I think we'll always find at least some minor issue or gripe. Fact is, it's better for CONSUMERS to have open technology. It means we aren't tied to one company. Do you think web browsers would be as advanced as they are now without Firefox putting up a fight against IE? Could Firefox have even remotely come close to beating IE in the first place had it not been for the fact that anyone could download it and have it work with their websites? That's standards compliance at it's best.

We wouldn't be where we are now if it wasn't for open standards causing competition in that segment of the market.

Edit: oh and by using open standards YOU have options. Maybe not on the iPhone but you can switch to Firefox, Safari, Opera, and maybe even some new web browser out there and expect your websites to be viewable. Flash isn't open, it might be "standard" but it isn't something ANYONE can implement. As such, it's not Apple you should be mad at, it's Adobe and the websites that use it. If they had chosen an open standard way of doing their website navigation you wouldn't be having this argument at all.

 

[IronLogik]

The only reason Flashblockers are so popular is not because of flash sucks but because of flash adds. First it was adblockers and the advisers had to get around that so they went to flash. Flash is not why people block but more it is to deal with the damn annoying flash adds. Easier to block all flash than it is to figure out which are flash ads and which are not.

I block Flash using ClickToFlash because flash crashes Safari more often than not. The removal of annoying advertising is pretty awesome though.

 

[kdarling]

For all the problems with Flash, Adobe being the sole implementor makes Flash one of the most consistent web development platforms across browsers and operating systems.

Which, ironically, is one of the commonly heard arguments for Apple keeping a closed system as well.

Any web developers who believe Flash is a "standard" don't know what they are talking about. It is a plug in and is dependent on users having the plug-in. The fact that most browsers include a version pre-installed does not qualify it as a standard.

The fact is, it's far more prevalent and cross-platform than anything else out there. That alone makes it a "standard".

I'm for HTML 5. But they wasted a half decade working on it while browsers passed it by. Very similar to the way Microsoft worked too slowly on Windows Mobile, thinking they had plenty of time.

 

[BaldiMac]

The only reason Flashblockers are so popular is not because of flash sucks but because of flash adds. First it was adblockers and the advisers had to get around that so they went to flash. Flash is not why people block but more it is to deal with the damn annoying flash adds. Easier to block all flash than it is to figure out which are flash ads and which are not.

Obviously, it's not the only reason. I, for one, block Flash for the reasons I specified in my previous post. Adblock works just as well for Flash ads as image ads, so the addition of Flashblock is not necessary if all you care about is avoiding ads.

According to Apple, Flash is the number one crasher of Safari. The opinion that Flash sucks is not pulled out of nowhere. To me, the biggest problem with Flash is that it is misused by developers. Full flash websites are the worst. Poorly accessible. Inconsistent navigation. Not properly indexed by search engines.

And then Flash bypasses browser security settings. It stores its own cookies. Maintains its own cache. Private browsing mode is ignored.