Is Apple’s new “Pro = Beefy” design language a mistake?

[heretiq]

I don't really think it's a problem if "Pro" becomes synonymous with beefy. That's exactly what some people want and anyone who's serious knows the Pro name means whatever people want it to mean.

I'm with you on the weight and size though. I love my 16" M1 Pro, but if a 15" Air comes out that's on par with my current M1 Pro, it might be my next driver in 2-3 years when I decide it's time to upgrade again.

I honestly don't care what they call it. They can call the Air the MacBook Noob and I'll still buy that to do my professional dev work on if the specs are suitable.

I don't mind the weight and size of my M1 Pro for the most part, but I do miss how my 2018 15" MBP just seemed to disappear into my pack.

Well said — I love my 16” M1 Mac MacBook Pro, but the difference in weight and size from the 15” MacBook Pro results noticeable regression in experience when used on the go for me. And, like you I’m not fixated on the name — I just want a more portable device with comparable power to the M1 Max MacBook Pro.

 

[heretiq]

I agree. This is why separate product lines exist. I would argue the biggest issue during the butterfly keyboard era was too little differentiation between Pro and “non-Pro” models. Once the 15” Air is released, the MacBook line will be in a condition not seen since the earlier intel days before everything became the same general aluminum design (TBD on if they keep stringing along the Touch Bar model).

Yes — totally agree!! This dreamer is keeping a modicum of hope alive for the TouchBar.

 

[heretiq]

LMAO These devices (MBP, iPad Pro, iPhone Pro) are incredibly thin. How in the world do you consider them "beefy?"
You bought the largest MBP and iPad Pro, they are going to be big. The smaller devices work just as well unless you absolutely need whatever crazy display the 12.9" iPad Pro has.

I do agree that a 12" MBP and iPhone Pro mini would be dope af and I'd buy both in a heartbeat.

Relatively thin is .. relative lol. In my case thinness and weight is relative to the 15” MacBook Pro, the 4th gen iPad Pro and iPhone 10 X — all of which are lighter and more portable than their successors. But you’re right in pointing out that compared to comparable non Apple alternatives ther are indeed relatively thin. 🤓

 

[heretiq]

I think it depends on what you’re doing whether it’s going to match the performance or not. It’s like you can haul a small car on a flatbed tow truck, or a flatbed semi tractor trailer. The tractor trailer has considerably more power and it’s going to burn more fuel to do the same task. I think many people are buying flatbed tractor trailers to haul small cars.

The MacBook Air is more than most people need except screen size. The larger MacBook should be more so if it’s available in a M2 Pro option.

Yes — An Apple Silicon Air with 32 GB RAM and 12 CPU / 32 GPU cores could come close to or match my 2021 M1 Max MacBook Pro performance. That’s what I’m hoping for. 🙏🏽

 

[smirking]

Well said — I love my 16” M1 Mac MacBook Pro, but the difference in weight and size from the 15” MacBook Pro results noticeable regression in experience when used on the go for me. And, like you I’m not fixated on the name — I just want a more portable device with comparable power to the M1 Max MacBook Pro.

My reaction to the weight and size of the 16" M1 MBP really surprised me. I didn't think I'd even notice it. It's only about half a pound heavier and slightly thicker than my 2018 15", but the extra weight and size just nudges it over a tipping point where it starts to feel awkward to handle. I feel like I'm living dangerously if I handle it with one hand whereas I wouldn't hesitate to one hand my 2018.

 

[heretiq]

Seems to me that Number and benchmarks are the only rage now in technology these past 5 or so years
YouTubers get more attention then Macworld, deservingly so.
Number Number Numbers, the more the merrier!
how many numbers does your Lenovo produce, HA!
Dell- HA!

this is a fad that might not go away for some time.

Nailed it! Unfortunately one metric: power per watt seems to have (hopefully temporarily) displaced the equally important but qualitative “will it fit into a Manila envelope” test instead of complimenting it.

Achieving both is difficult; but I choose Apple because they’ve historically held themselves to the higher standard of delivering both.

 

[heretiq]

If you need maximum performance from CPU/GPU, or anything close to your description. The laptop needs a fan and Air most likely doesn’t have one. I would want my 16 Inch MacBook lighter like Air but heck my workstation with 4090 runs circles around it, while it’s warm, not hot. I don’t see how Air with out fan can handle that.

You may be right; but I’m hoping the combination of 3 nm Apple Silicon, larger surface area passive cooling and expectation for “warm” operation, can bring a 2023 Air into the performance ballpark of a 2021 M1 Max MacBook Pro.

 

[Matt Leaf]

What is the difference between the Retina MBP base thickness, and the M1/M2 series?

Something tells me there’s room to shave off a mm or two once we hit m3/m4, hopefully keeping ports but shaving some weight and bulk as the cores become more efficient over time.

 

[heretiq]

In regards to their laptops, absolutely not. Thankfully, there's great consumer choice right now with the performant Air line and the absolute beasts that are the Pro models. The raving reviews for Apple's current MacBook Pros seem to indicate their course correction was what the target market wanted.

A case could be made for the weight of the iPads and iPhones, though. But we don't get to have it both ways: we can slim 'er down but we'll lose the two day battery life (iPhone) that we appreciate. As for the size, well, I think the perfect size is the iPhone mini or iPhone SE. I'd love to see a Pro model in that form factor. Actually, for that matter, I'd like to see an iPhone mini, period (RIP).

The calculus on the laptops is whether there are more people looking for a “beefier” and more expensive MacBook with more power and features than those who would downgrade and purchase a cheaper notebook to get a more compact device.

Total conjecture but latest Apple quarterly report has iPhone sales down 8%, Mac sales down 29% and iPad sales up 30% year over year. Some have cited the delay in the AS Mac Pro as a contributor to the Mac sales decline but that is a relatively low volume device — so I’m inclined to view the overall report as a sign that people are trading down to lighter, cheaper devices due to escalating device heft. Again, I know this is total conjecture — but I’m among friends so putting it out there! Lol

 

[heretiq]

Having gone from a 13" 2012 MBP which was 2.0kg to a 16" M1 Max MBP which is 2.1kg, I probably have a slightly different take which boils down to "what's all the fuss about" 😂

Ha! Masterful. 🙏🏽

 

[heretiq]

I’d say yes. I sold my iPhone 13 Pro at a $350 loss about six months after owning it just so I could switch to a Mini.

Yes, I suspect this is the Apple product substitution equivalent of “quiet quitting” — just trade down and not make a fuss. I think Apple is taking notice — which is why I believe I received that unusual survey after trading down to a mini after years of buying flagship Apple phones.

 

[tcatsninfan]

After exclusively purchasing MacBook Pros, my next Mac is likely to be a MacBook Air — not because I want an Air, but because the MacBook Pro is too damn bulky.

However, this “Pro = Beefy” design language is not relegated to the Apple Silicon MacBook Pros. The issue extends to the M1/M2 iPad Pro and iPhone Pro devices as well.

​

M1 MacBook Pro​

I love my M1 Max 16” MacBook Pro when using it — it’s powerful, quiet, fast, cool and handles anything I throw at it gracefully and reliably; but this love transforms to doubts when hauling it or using it inflight or on anything other than a roomy desk for an extended period of time.

After hoisting my laptop bag to my shoulder, strolling to a gate at the airport or trying to use it inflight my inner talk increasingly turns to “Do I really need the power?” “Can I get away with a thinner, lighter, less powerful Mac laptop?“

The answer today is probably not — I need the 12 core CPU and 32 Core GPU to run discrete event simulations and visualize results as fast as possible. The difference between 30 minutes to run 20 iterations of a one-year complex simulation vs 45 minutes to do the same thing is huge — especially when collaborating with others and relying on simulation results to help others think through problems and solution with each run.

However, that rumored M2/M3 15” MacBook Air is sounding very promising. If it matches or comes close to the performance of my 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro, I’m going for it.

Yes, I’m willing to trade ProMotion, Mini LED display, and 1 Thunderbolt, HDMI and CF ports to eliminate 2 pounds and nearly 1/4 (.22) inch height on my daily driver — and likely pay less for the privilege!

M1/M2 iPad Pro​

I love my 12.9” Cellular M1 iPad Pro, but it’s too damn bulky — the M1 and M2 iPad Pro’s 1.51 pounds and .25 inches height vs 1.42 pounds and .23 inches of their 4th gen non M1 predecessor does not seem like a lot until you use it one handed and notice the significantly greater hand stress than the 4th gen iPad Pro .. or haul it around in your laptop bag along with your M1 Max MacBook Pro — that’s a total of 6.3 pounds without the power brick!

Similarly, the 4th gen 12.9” iPad Pro without mini led was fabulous in many ways (screen, performance, battery life, light weight, one-handed operation) .. and in practice the M1 version did not improve my experience as I thought it would — in retrospect I traded comfortable 1 hand operation for beefiness and the hope of future-proofing.

Likewise, I’m willing to trade off mini-LED, ProMotion and other enhancements for reduced weight and bulkiness of a larger screen iPad Air — and likely pay less for the privilege!

iPhone Pro​

The iPhone 12 Pro marked the leap from a 5.8“ screen to 6.1” screen. I reflexively upgraded from my beloved 5.8” iPhone 10 X to the 12 Pro to follow my practice of always purchasing the most feature rich, top of the line iPhone. However, after 2 months of use I realized that the iPhone X to 12 Pro “upgrade” came with a trade off: give up comfortable one-hand operation for better cameras and a bigger screen. This was a downgrade for me — not an upgrade.

I spent months trying to adapt to this change but could not — I simply valued the smaller 5.8” form factor more than better cameras and bigger, better screen. As soon as the iPhone 13 was released, I purchased an iPhone 13 mini and gave the 12 Pro to a family member. I continue to love the iPhone 13 mini’s combination of size, functionality and performance — and definitely paid less for the privilege!

Size matters​

After my iPhone Pro to iPhone mini conversion, I received an in-depth survey from Apple inquiring A. why I chose the iPhone 13 mini over the Pro and other devices (Answer: size), B. what I wanted (Answer: a 5.8” iPhone Pro model) and C. what I would do if the mini was not available: (a) choose another iPhone model, (b) choose a competitor’s mobile phone, (c) something else. Answer: (c) something else ..

The “something else” for me is to ditch the “phone” completely if the iPhone mini is discontinued and instead rely on my Apple Watch for “phone” functionality. I know the watch is not currently capable of untethered operation; but I hope that is the case in the next 1-3 years — as I refuse to buy an oversized phone when I have an iPad Pro and MacBook Pro for occasions when I need a large screen.

I have sympathy for Apple product managers enduring to the stresses and challenges in defining and evolving complex product lines but for me, the recent “Pro = Beefy” trend — first evident in the iPhone Pro, then the iPad Pro, and now the MacBook Pro — is a mistake that will impact the bottom line as it forces those who value compact portable form factors to purchase lighter devices that are often less expensive.

So, I’m wondering if Apple may be making a strategic mistake with this “Pro = Beefy” design approach as it seems to force customers to (a) choose between size and performance — which historically was not mutually exclusive — and (b) pay less for compactness — which historically came at a premium. I may be an outlier in my preference for compactness vs functional overkill; but this feels like a departure from the Apple design culture that saved us from 2 inch bricks masquerading as laptops and made us eager and excited to pay a premium for compactness.

What do you think?

/end-therapy-session/

Your post is too long and all over the place. I think most people would agree that even the 16" MBP isn't "bulky" when you consider how heavy laptops have been in the past and how much performance you get out of it. It is Apple's largest and heaviest laptop, but that isn't saying much. You bought their largest and heaviest laptop and then complained that it's too bulky.

Just buy an Air and be done with it. You said you bought an iPhone Mini, fine. Buy an Air too. Or I dunno, just buy an iPad Mini and only use that and your Apple Watch since you seem to be so concerned with thinness and weight.

 

[heretiq]

Personally the labels are meaningless.

There should be two types of machines, a light one and a beefy one.

If the machine you're looking for fall into anywhere in between, unless the market is sizable enough for it and if Tim Apple decides to gamble on it, then you gotta pick either side. Either pony up the extra or settle for something a bit less. They can't make the perfect machine for every single one of us.

I agree; but Apple has defined 3 categories of portable Macs (MacBook Pro for ultimate performance, MacBook Air for ultimate portability and MacBook for happy medium? / budget conscious?). I’m hoping the Air is defined as the happy medium — though right now it feels like there are only two categories as you’ve summarized.

 

[kpcboopathi]

To me, extra weight of MBP16 worth carrying given previous Intel MBP15's worst performance due to thermal throttling. The new machine is giving 10X of improvement with only slight increase in weight. My entire team (60 people) is very happy with the performance boost and neglected weight increase.

iPhone use case is different for me . I love small phones, using 12 Mini (Old phone was SE1). As I am keeping phone in pocket unlike MBP, I want it to be more portable and small. I always think the Pro phones are having unnecessary weight just for aesthetic purpose. Weight for performance/better camera is acceptable.

 

[heretiq]

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Apple got here by finally LISTENING to what Pros actually wanted. If you don't understand what was problematic about Apple's previous pro lineup they weren't really for you (or perhaps it's more appropriate to say they weren't really for most "Pros" and were inadequate for even a lot of prosumers.)
I do think the designs will probably slim down a bit over time, and perhaps more "mid range" design language options will be introduced.
(PS: Even by my wordy standards, your post is too long)

Yeah, the post is definitely long. I was trying to highlight what I see as a trend towards defining “Pro” as necessitating bigger across multiple product lines. Part of the challenge is agreeing on who is a Pro (someone who uses their Mac professionally? someone who needs greater performance than the “typical” user? some other definition?).

I use my Mac professionally and travel frequently so I value portability, need lots of memory and high CPU/GPU performance, but don’t need lots of built in ports, CF card slot, Mimi LED or ProMotion — do I qualify as a pro?

The label doesn’t matter to me I simply want a portable device that meets my performance needs. The prior gen 15” MacBook Pro met my portability and performance needs but was noisy and ran hot. The current gen 16” MacBook Pro runs quieter and cooler but is noticeably bulkier and less portable. I love it too, but I’m not sure if it’s an improvement over the 15” MacBook Pro — it simply has different trade offs.

I expect new Apple products to be revolutionary and offer more than different trade offs. The M1 MacBook Pros are close, but I hope the 15” M2/M3 Air can be truly revolutionary by delivering “pro” performance in a more portable form factor.

 

[heretiq]

My reaction to the weight and size of the 16" M1 MBP really surprised me. I didn't think I'd even notice it. It's only about half a pound heavier and slightly thicker than my 2018 15", but the extra weight and size just nudges it over a tipping point where it starts to feel awkward to handle. I feel like I'm living dangerously if I handle it with one hand whereas I wouldn't hesitate to one hand my 2018.

Absolutely! This is the issue and if you’re coming from the 15” MacBook Pro it’s obvious — if not you may be oblivious to it.

 

[heretiq]

What is the difference between the Retina MBP base thickness, and the M1/M2 series?

Something tells me there’s room to shave off a mm or two once we hit m3/m4, hopefully keeping ports but shaving some weight and bulk as the cores become more efficient over time.

The difference is minor on paper; but very noticeable and uncomfortable when experienced. I’m hoping that we start to see weight and size improvements beginning with M3!

 

[Richu]

After exclusively purchasing MacBook Pros, my next Mac is likely to be a MacBook Air — not because I want an Air, but because the MacBook Pro is too damn bulky.

However, this “Pro = Beefy” design language is not relegated to the Apple Silicon MacBook Pros. The issue extends to the M1/M2 iPad Pro and iPhone Pro devices as well.

​

M1 MacBook Pro​

I love my M1 Max 16” MacBook Pro when using it — it’s powerful, quiet, fast, cool and handles anything I throw at it gracefully and reliably; but this love transforms to doubts when hauling it or using it inflight or on anything other than a roomy desk for an extended period of time.

After hoisting my laptop bag to my shoulder, strolling to a gate at the airport or trying to use it inflight my inner talk increasingly turns to “Do I really need the power?” “Can I get away with a thinner, lighter, less powerful Mac laptop?“

The answer today is probably not — I need the 12 core CPU and 32 Core GPU to run discrete event simulations and visualize results as fast as possible. The difference between 30 minutes to run 20 iterations of a one-year complex simulation vs 45 minutes to do the same thing is huge — especially when collaborating with others and relying on simulation results to help others think through problems and solution with each run.

However, that rumored M2/M3 15” MacBook Air is sounding very promising. If it matches or comes close to the performance of my 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro, I’m going for it.

Yes, I’m willing to trade ProMotion, Mini LED display, and 1 Thunderbolt, HDMI and CF ports to eliminate 2 pounds and nearly 1/4 (.22) inch height on my daily driver — and likely pay less for the privilege!

M1/M2 iPad Pro​

I love my 12.9” Cellular M1 iPad Pro, but it’s too damn bulky — the M1 and M2 iPad Pro’s 1.51 pounds and .25 inches height vs 1.42 pounds and .23 inches of their 4th gen non M1 predecessor does not seem like a lot until you use it one handed and notice the significantly greater hand stress than the 4th gen iPad Pro .. or haul it around in your laptop bag along with your M1 Max MacBook Pro — that’s a total of 6.3 pounds without the power brick!

Similarly, the 4th gen 12.9” iPad Pro without mini led was fabulous in many ways (screen, performance, battery life, light weight, one-handed operation) .. and in practice the M1 version did not improve my experience as I thought it would — in retrospect I traded comfortable 1 hand operation for beefiness and the hope of future-proofing.

Likewise, I’m willing to trade off mini-LED, ProMotion and other enhancements for reduced weight and bulkiness of a larger screen iPad Air — and likely pay less for the privilege!

iPhone Pro​

The iPhone 12 Pro marked the leap from a 5.8“ screen to 6.1” screen. I reflexively upgraded from my beloved 5.8” iPhone 10 X to the 12 Pro to follow my practice of always purchasing the most feature rich, top of the line iPhone. However, after 2 months of use I realized that the iPhone X to 12 Pro “upgrade” came with a trade off: give up comfortable one-hand operation for better cameras and a bigger screen. This was a downgrade for me — not an upgrade.

I spent months trying to adapt to this change but could not — I simply valued the smaller 5.8” form factor more than better cameras and bigger, better screen. As soon as the iPhone 13 was released, I purchased an iPhone 13 mini and gave the 12 Pro to a family member. I continue to love the iPhone 13 mini’s combination of size, functionality and performance — and definitely paid less for the privilege!

Size matters​

After my iPhone Pro to iPhone mini conversion, I received an in-depth survey from Apple inquiring A. why I chose the iPhone 13 mini over the Pro and other devices (Answer: size), B. what I wanted (Answer: a 5.8” iPhone Pro model) and C. what I would do if the mini was not available: (a) choose another iPhone model, (b) choose a competitor’s mobile phone, (c) something else. Answer: (c) something else ..

The “something else” for me is to ditch the “phone” completely if the iPhone mini is discontinued and instead rely on my Apple Watch for “phone” functionality. I know the watch is not currently capable of untethered operation; but I hope that is the case in the next 1-3 years — as I refuse to buy an oversized phone when I have an iPad Pro and MacBook Pro for occasions when I need a large screen.

I have sympathy for Apple product managers enduring to the stresses and challenges in defining and evolving complex product lines but for me, the recent “Pro = Beefy” trend — first evident in the iPhone Pro, then the iPad Pro, and now the MacBook Pro — is a mistake that will impact the bottom line as it forces those who value compact portable form factors to purchase lighter devices that are often less expensive.

So, I’m wondering if Apple may be making a strategic mistake with this “Pro = Beefy” design approach as it seems to force customers to (a) choose between size and performance — which historically was not mutually exclusive — and (b) pay less for compactness — which historically came at a premium. I may be an outlier in my preference for compactness vs functional overkill; but this feels like a departure from the Apple design culture that saved us from 2 inch bricks masquerading as laptops and made us eager and excited to pay a premium for compactness.

What do you think?

/end-therapy-session/

Size = performance. Thermals.

Please let me keep it 😭. I’ve been so disappointed when they kept shrinking the pro 😞 was horrible for my workflow

 

[heretiq]

Your post is too long and all over the place. I think most people would agree that even the 16" MBP isn't "bulky" when you consider how heavy laptops have been in the past and how much performance you get out of it. It is Apple's largest and heaviest laptop, but that isn't saying much. You bought their largest and heaviest laptop and then complained that it's too bulky.

Just buy an Air and be done with it. You said you bought an iPhone Mini, fine. Buy an Air too. Or I dunno, just buy an iPad Mini and only use that and your Apple Watch since you seem to be so concerned with thinness and weight.

I’ll accept your perspective if it is formed from your experience with using a 15” MacBook Pro, then switching to a 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro. If you haven’t please recognize that opinions based on theory are not equivalent to those arrived at through experience.

 

[heretiq]

Size = performance. Thermals.

Please let me keep it 😭. I’ve been so disappointed when they kept shrinking the pro 😞 was horrible for my workflow

Ha! I don’t want you to lose it — I just want a 15” Air with 32GB RAM and near 2021 M1 Max CPU/GPU performance. Is that really too much to ask for? 😥

 

[heretiq]

To me, extra weight of MBP16 worth carrying given previous Intel MBP15's worst performance due to thermal throttling. The new machine is giving 10X of improvement with only slight increase in weight. My entire team (60 people) is very happy with the performance boost and neglected weight increase.

iPhone use case is different for me . I love small phones, using 12 Mini (Old phone was SE1). As I am keeping phone in pocket unlike MBP, I want it to be more portable and small. I always think the Pro phones are having unnecessary weight just for aesthetic purpose. Weight for performance/better camera is acceptable.

I appreciate your experience and recognize that the MBP value equation is different from person to person and I’m glad to see that your team is seeing such productivity gain from the AS MacBook pros! If it didn’t come through please know that I love my 16” MacBook Pro — the performance and quiet operation has improved my productivity and quality of work life tremendously. I just wish it didn’t feel so bulky while lugging it around.

 

[ian87w]

The “beefy” design is apt and necessary for the MacBook Pros. Unlike previous MacBook Pros, which were simply ultra premium laptops, the current MacBook Pros (14” and 16”) are basically in the class of portable workstation. And by that intent, they are appropriately designed as they have to maintain higher threshold for heat dissipation and the number of ports. They’re still “slim” when compared to a typical workstation PC laptops.

As for the iPhone, the Pro simply means true flagship/premium. Their size and dimensions are the same with the regular non Pro counterparts, only added weight due to stainless steel material.

Back to the MacBook Pros, imo it’s not a mistake. It’s an appropriate choice considering the segment they’re targeting, portable workstations.

The actual mistake imo is the cost cutting methods by halving the NAND chips (as such halving the SSD speed) and using smaller heat sink on the M2 Pro/Max models of the MacBook Pros. That’s just cheap on Apple’s part considering g these are actual premium machines.

 

[heretiq]

The “beefy” design is apt and necessary for the MacBook Pros. Unlike previous MacBook Pros, which were simply ultra premium laptops, the current MacBook Pros (14” and 16”) are basically in the class of portable workstation. And by that intent, they are appropriately designed as they have to maintain higher threshold for heat dissipation and the number of ports. They’re still “slim” when compared to a typical workstation PC laptops.

As for the iPhone, the Pro simply means true flagship/premium. Their size and dimensions are the same with the regular non Pro counterparts, only added weight due to stainless steel material.

Back to the MacBook Pros, imo it’s not a mistake. It’s an appropriate choice considering the segment they’re targeting, portable workstations.

The actual mistake imo is the cost cutting methods by halving the NAND chips (as such halving the SSD speed) and using smaller heat sink on the M2 Pro/Max models of the MacBook Pros. That’s just cheap on Apple’s part considering g these are actual premium machines.

Great points Ian. Your characterization of the new Pros as workstations vs premium laptops helps to put the whole package into perspective. I’m hoping that a 15” M2/M3 Air sets a new performance standard for premium laptops! Thanks for the instructive perspective.

 

[SamRyouji]

I kinda see Apple going this way the same as camera manufacturers. The biggest gets all the bells and whistles. The more tech you put inside, the more room you need to allow better heat dissipation and put more juice in it.
It's indeed a beef, as in a beefcake. But hey, I love myself a beefcake just for the sheer raw power in it (if money is no objections) lol.

 

[spiderman0616]

The M1/M2 Macbook Pros are what power users have been asking for since about 2012. The thin Intel Macbook Pros with garbage keyboards and loud fans are definitely not. The M2 MacBook Air seems to be the machine you need.