Is It Me? Why Does It Seem No One Minds Apple's new Machines Are NOT UPGRADABLE?

[Abazigal]

What exactly makes a Windows product “lesser”?

For me, the shorter battery life and more heat generated as a result of the intel processor, the dearth of preinstalled apps, the lack of integration with my other apple devices, and build quality.

Maybe "lesser" isn't the word I would use, but that's what I prefer about my M1 MBA (8gb ram and all) at any rate.

 

[ader42]

What exactly makes a Windows product “lesser”?

Windows

 

[ader42]

You ever hear of Razer? Origin PC? EK Fluid? That's just off the top of my head. There are plenty of high quality Windows machines out there.

They are not high quality as in build-quality. I like and use Razer products btw for example, but quality they are not. Premium fashion they are.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Windows

Bollocks
.. C'mon

 

[eltoslightfoot]

They are not high quality as in build-quality. I like and use Razer products btw for example, but quality they are not. Premium fashion they are.

Suuuuuuuuure…. I mean, I guess you have some sort of evidence to back that up?

 

[ader42]

Bollocks
.. C'mon

I’ve used PCs from windows 3 upwards (I was programming on SCO-Unix boxes before then).

All Microsoft windows software is cheap and nasty crap compared to the then current version of MacOS.
The current windows is just a pretty front-end on top of nasty rubbish from previous. I thought everyone knew that.

Even Visual Studio was garbage when I had to suffer it compared to XCode.

 

[ader42]

Suuuuuuuuure…. I mean, I guess you have some sort of evidence to back that up?

Evidence?
It’s easy enough to see the build-quality of their PCs compared to MacBook Pros.
Just go into your local PC shop and look at them.

At least Sony Vaio PCs were really good build quality.

As I said, I like the Razer brand and use their products but I am under no illusions - they are over-priced cheaply made products compared to Macs. That’s ok, I can afford it.

 

[bousozoku]

I’ve used PCs from windows 3 upwards (I was programming on SCO-Unix boxes before then).

All Microsoft windows software is cheap and nasty crap compared to the then current version of MacOS.
The current windows is just a pretty front-end on top of nasty rubbish from previous. I thought everyone knew that.

Even Visual Studio was garbage when I had to suffer it compared to XCode.

Windows 1, 2, and 3 were definitely awful. Windows NT 4 is where they finally did better. I often have said that Microsoft spends 100% of their time on 65% of the solution.

Their development environment is just as convoluted as any other. All of them are useful, none of them are intuitive, although I liked CodeWarrior for Mac. Apple's environment for System 7 through Mac OS 9.x was interesting.

Of the current macOS and Windows, I'm okay with both. They both work. Neither are perfect.

Given the Macs on Apple Silicon, it feels as though we're in the early Mac OS X days.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Evidence?
It’s easy enough to see the build-quality of their PCs compared to MacBook Pros.
Just go into your local PC shop and look at them.

At least Sony Vaio PCs were really good build quality.

As I said, I like the Razer brand and use their products but I am under no illusions - they are over-priced cheaply made products compared to Macs. That’s ok, I can afford it.

My surface pro 9 feels just as premium as my M1 Macbook Pro. And actually, when you factor the plastic in, my Acer Predator Helios Neo 16" feels just as premium as well. So, I don't know what to tell you.

These things are subjective, I guess.

 

[bousozoku]

My surface pro 9 feels just as premium as my M1 Macbook Pro. And actually, when you factor the plastic in, my Acer Predator Helios Neo 16" feels just as premium as well. So, I don't know what to tell you.

These things are subjective, I guess.

It is subjective, but perception is often based on experience. e.g., if you haven't seen a $1 million diamond, will you realize any difference from those sold at flea markets?

My ASUS ZenBook Pro was priced below my refurbished M1 MacBook Air but has a Ryzen 7 5800H and RTX 3050Ti. The ZenBook has plenty of metal and isn't as hot as my last Intel machine. The only thing degrading it is the stickers on the palm rest. Contrast that to the Omen by HP machine with a crooked hinge, which was often too hot to use the keyboard.

I'm remembering when Volkswagen was introducing the Golf Mk IV. They found ways to make it feel more expensive, even though they cut costs. If a company takes time to do things well, the results are easy to see.

 

[gemini62167]

It disgusts me to no end how after Apple has closed its system to future upgrades both by the user as well as Apple itself post sale, that they are hosing its devoted customers by charging $200 per upgrade, per step. Apple states that all and any upgrades have to be ordered at the time of purchase from Apple.

Really?

I've been an Apple customer since 1989 and in the last five to ten years I've seen such a dramatic shift in the company's attitude and business model towards us, and it infuriates me. In fact, I've come to detest Apple as much if not more than I once swore by them. This Apple is not the same Apple of its founder, Steve Jobs. That version of Apple died with him.

My list of grievances is far too long to post, but this ridiculous act of shorting users of what is typically normally offered as standard in the PC world makes me seeth. Internal drives and memory are biggies for starters and I don't care what the excuse is, ARM or not. Do it differently, and don't hide behind a build decision as the reason. Because this has been going on from as far back as late 2012. PC's offer on board SSD sizes (1T or 2T), RAM (16G), and do not eliminate the user's future ability to upgrade either should it be necessary. Yet Apple does, and few seem to have a problem with this. This ridiculous miniscule offering of memory and storage in this day and age has been done for no other reason but to force Apple users into having to subscribe to increasing amounts of iCloud space just to have their libraries available.

Books alone was a crapfest after Apple made it impossible to maintain its library on an external drive when Catalina was released, wjo;e at the same time moving audiobooks to Books (iBooks). That made this scenario worse due to audio file sizes being far larger than pdfs and epubs. This left users with no choice but either having to keep them off your tiny 256G or 512G SSD or purchase increasing amounts of iCloud. Sure it was all marketed by Apple with their typical smiley happy attitude that it makes that library accessible wherever and on whatever device... but that should be a choice by the customer not a requirement. Sorry, I don't fall for smiley happy happy marketing tactics, nor should anyone else.

Now should I kvetch about the lack of ports as well? Nah... I think anyone reading this will either get the point or won't which largely has more to do with blind brand loyalty over logic and pragmatism.

There are so many other greivances I have with Apple and not limited to just the computers, but all their devices. All of which have everything to do with blatent outright price gouging and an utter disregard for its long time Apple customers. I was saddled with one of the earlier iMacs that could not have its RAM upgraded and regretted it immensely.

I really do not how any Apple users today can be so forgiving of such things, I don't care how graceful the OS is. A computer is a computer, it is meant to do just that as well be accessible to future upgrades. This forcing of users into corners leaving them often with no choice but to have to purchase completely new systems every three or four years is obscene. Especially for the prices Apple charges. It doesn't escape me that over these past ten or so years, Apple is giving less and less concern to computing and more towards entertainment, in effect making their machines into nothing more than just television sets and entertainment systems for the anesthetized masses.

Frankly, I don't care how many colors it comes in, how thin it is, or if it is built to withstand a visit from my next door neighbors toddler. Why should it be built like a Sherman tank if it isn't going to be supported for more than four years or so, and quickly become obsolete? What is the purpose of building them to last twenty years then pass that cost on to the customer especially while imposing constant limitations and inabiities to upgrade? All I can ask is are we really that stupid or blithely complacent that we will excuse and apologize for every malfeascense this company continues to enact? If we are, that is terribly sad. Now I think I am finally beginning to understand the statements many from the PC side sling at us as being cultish.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

It disgusts me to no end how after Apple has closed its system to future upgrades both by the user as well as Apple itself post sale, that they are hosing its devoted customers by charging $200 per upgrade, per step. Apple states that all and any upgrades have to be ordered at the time of purchase from Apple.

Really?

I've been an Apple customer since 1989 and in the last five to ten years I've seen such a dramatic shift in the company's attitude and business model towards us, and it infuriates me. In fact, I've come to detest Apple as much if not more than I once swore by them. This Apple is not the same Apple of its founder, Steve Jobs. That version of Apple died with him.

My list of grievances is far too long to post, but this ridiculous act of shorting users of what is typically normally offered as standard in the PC world makes me seeth. Internal drives and memory are biggies for starters and I don't care what the excuse is, ARM or not. Do it differently, and don't hide behind a build decision as the reason. Because this has been going on from as far back as late 2012. PC's offer on board SSD sizes (1T or 2T), RAM (16G), and do not eliminate the user's future ability to upgrade either should it be necessary. Yet Apple does, and few seem to have a problem with this. This ridiculous miniscule offering of memory and storage in this day and age has been done for no other reason but to force Apple users into having to subscribe to increasing amounts of iCloud space just to have their libraries available.

Books alone was a crapfest after Apple made it impossible to maintain its library on an external drive when Catalina was released, wjo;e at the same time moving audiobooks to Books (iBooks). That made this scenario worse due to audio file sizes being far larger than pdfs and epubs. This left users with no choice but either having to keep them off your tiny 256G or 512G SSD or purchase increasing amounts of iCloud. Sure it was all marketed by Apple with their typical smiley happy attitude that it makes that library accessible wherever and on whatever device... but that should be a choice by the customer not a requirement. Sorry, I don't fall for smiley happy happy marketing tactics, nor should anyone else.

Now should I kvetch about the lack of ports as well? Nah... I think anyone reading this will either get the point or won't which largely has more to do with blind brand loyalty over logic and pragmatism.

There are so many other greivances I have with Apple and not limited to just the computers, but all their devices. All of which have everything to do with blatent outright price gouging and an utter disregard for its long time Apple customers. I was saddled with one of the earlier iMacs that could not have its RAM upgraded and regretted it immensely.

I really do not how any Apple users today can be so forgiving of such things, I don't care how graceful the OS is. A computer is a computer, it is meant to do just that as well be accessible to future upgrades. This forcing of users into corners leaving them often with no choice but to have to purchase completely new systems every three or four years is obscene. Especially for the prices Apple charges. It doesn't escape me that over these past ten or so years, Apple is giving less and less concern to computing and more towards entertainment, in effect making their machines into nothing more than just television sets and entertainment systems for the anesthetized masses.

Frankly, I don't care how many colors it comes in, how thin it is, or if it is built to withstand a visit from my next door neighbors toddler. Why should it be built like a Sherman tank if it isn't going to be supported for more than four years or so, and quickly become obsolete? What is the purpose of building them to last twenty years then pass that cost on to the customer especially while imposing constant limitations and inabiities to upgrade? All I can ask is are we really that stupid or blithely complacent that we will excuse and apologize for every malfeascense this company continues to enact? If we are, that is terribly sad. Now I think I am finally beginning to understand the statements many from the PC side sling at us as being cultish.

You have summed up exactly why I can't bring myself to go back to Mac. It's just easier on the other side. I may miss some Mac-only programs like DevonThink and Ulysses, but not near enough to settle for even 16GB RAM and a tiny 512GB and pay well over $1500 for the privilege. In ye olden days, as you describe above, I could upgrade my RAM and hard drive myself.

 

[Fomalhaut]

It disgusts me to no end how after Apple has closed its system to future upgrades both by the user as well as Apple itself post sale, that they are hosing its devoted customers by charging $200 per upgrade, per step. Apple states that all and any upgrades have to be ordered at the time of purchase from Apple.

Really?

I've been an Apple customer since 1989 and in the last five to ten years I've seen such a dramatic shift in the company's attitude and business model towards us, and it infuriates me. In fact, I've come to detest Apple as much if not more than I once swore by them. This Apple is not the same Apple of its founder, Steve Jobs. That version of Apple died with him.

My list of grievances is far too long to post, but this ridiculous act of shorting users of what is typically normally offered as standard in the PC world makes me seeth. Internal drives and memory are biggies for starters and I don't care what the excuse is, ARM or not. Do it differently, and don't hide behind a build decision as the reason. Because this has been going on from as far back as late 2012. PC's offer on board SSD sizes (1T or 2T), RAM (16G), and do not eliminate the user's future ability to upgrade either should it be necessary. Yet Apple does, and few seem to have a problem with this. This ridiculous miniscule offering of memory and storage in this day and age has been done for no other reason but to force Apple users into having to subscribe to increasing amounts of iCloud space just to have their libraries available.

Books alone was a crapfest after Apple made it impossible to maintain its library on an external drive when Catalina was released, wjo;e at the same time moving audiobooks to Books (iBooks). That made this scenario worse due to audio file sizes being far larger than pdfs and epubs. This left users with no choice but either having to keep them off your tiny 256G or 512G SSD or purchase increasing amounts of iCloud. Sure it was all marketed by Apple with their typical smiley happy attitude that it makes that library accessible wherever and on whatever device... but that should be a choice by the customer not a requirement. Sorry, I don't fall for smiley happy happy marketing tactics, nor should anyone else.

Now should I kvetch about the lack of ports as well? Nah... I think anyone reading this will either get the point or won't which largely has more to do with blind brand loyalty over logic and pragmatism.

There are so many other greivances I have with Apple and not limited to just the computers, but all their devices. All of which have everything to do with blatent outright price gouging and an utter disregard for its long time Apple customers. I was saddled with one of the earlier iMacs that could not have its RAM upgraded and regretted it immensely.

I really do not how any Apple users today can be so forgiving of such things, I don't care how graceful the OS is. A computer is a computer, it is meant to do just that as well be accessible to future upgrades. This forcing of users into corners leaving them often with no choice but to have to purchase completely new systems every three or four years is obscene. Especially for the prices Apple charges. It doesn't escape me that over these past ten or so years, Apple is giving less and less concern to computing and more towards entertainment, in effect making their machines into nothing more than just television sets and entertainment systems for the anesthetized masses.

Frankly, I don't care how many colors it comes in, how thin it is, or if it is built to withstand a visit from my next door neighbors toddler. Why should it be built like a Sherman tank if it isn't going to be supported for more than four years or so, and quickly become obsolete? What is the purpose of building them to last twenty years then pass that cost on to the customer especially while imposing constant limitations and inabiities to upgrade? All I can ask is are we really that stupid or blithely complacent that we will excuse and apologize for every malfeascense this company continues to enact? If we are, that is terribly sad. Now I think I am finally beginning to understand the statements many from the PC side sling at us as being cultish.

This subject clearly vexes you, because you've posted an almost identical message to your OP on this same thread in March...

The issue I believe, is that the modern concept of a "computer" is now different to what it was when you were younger. I would bet that if you asked most young people (let's say < 25 years old) to draw a computer, they would draw a laptop. The idea of a box containing interchangeable components is now largely relegated to gaming computers and hobbyists.

Similarly, if you asked a wider audience if they had ever changed RAM modules or an HDD/SSD in a computer, only a very small percentage would say yes - and the majority of those would not be young people. The exception would be hobbyists who like to construct their own computers - but this is niche group.

The ability to upgrade consumer electronics hardware, or pretty much any kind of technology or engineering, is no longer common, and that is the result of increasingly complex technology.

My father used to do significant maintenance on his car, with fairly standard and cheap tools. These days many cars are largely closed systems, controlled by embedded computers, and you need expensive specialised tools to work on them. Yet modern cars are better in nearly every performance metric... Part of those improvements are the result of integrating previously discrete user-maintainable functions into embedded systems that are not.

I've also been using computers for over 40 years and have seen a lot of changes. I now see computers as just another appliance amongst the many I use in daily life. I have never felt deprived by the inability to upgrade my TV, dishwasher, washing machine, refrigerator, microwave oven, car...etc.

Try changing your mindset to view a modern computer as black-box appliance that you buy and replace when it either fails or no longer meets your expectations.

You may mourn the passing of the "good old days" when you could play around with computer internals. The good news is that you can still do this! Just not with Apple Mac computers. Perhaps it's time you moved on....

 

[eltoslightfoot]

This subject clearly vexes you, because you've posted an almost identical message to your OP on this same thread in March...

The issue I believe, is that the modern concept of a "computer" is now different to what it was when you were younger. I would bet that if you asked most young people (let's say < 25 years old) to draw a computer, they would draw a laptop. The idea of a box containing interchangeable components is now largely relegated to gaming computers and hobbyists.

Similarly, if you asked a wider audience if they had ever changed RAM modules or an HDD/SSD in a computer, only a very small percentage would say yes - and the majority of those would not be young people. The exception would be hobbyists who like to construct their own computers - but this is niche group.

The ability to upgrade consumer electronics hardware, or pretty much any kind of technology or engineering, is no longer common, and that is the result of increasingly complex technology.

My father used to do significant maintenance on his car, with fairly standard and cheap tools. These days many cars are largely closed systems, controlled by embedded computers, and you need expensive specialised tools to work on them. Yet modern cars are better in nearly every performance metric... Part of those improvements are the result of integrating previously discrete user-maintainable functions into embedded systems that are not.

I've also been using computers for over 40 years and have seen a lot of changes. I now see computers as just another appliance amongst the many I use in daily life. I have never felt deprived by the inability to upgrade my TV, dishwasher, washing machine, refrigerator, microwave oven, car...etc.

Try changing your mindset to view a modern computer as black-box appliance that you buy and replace when it either fails or no longer meets your expectations.

You may mourn the passing of the "good old days" when you could play around with computer internals. The good news is that you can still do this! Just not with Apple Mac computers. Perhaps it's time you moved on....

Except I just did those very things you call outdated a few months ago. Doubled my RAM to 32GB and added another 1TB SSD. So....you can do it. You just can't do it with Mac. Ah well. Saved about $1200 over what the upgrades would have cost me if it was a mac as well--given it was a 16 inch gaming laptop.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Except I just did those very things you call outdated a few months ago. Doubled my RAM to 32GB and added another 1TB SSD. So....you can do it. You just can't do it with Mac. Ah well. Saved about $1200 over what the upgrades would have cost me if it was a mac as well--given it was a 16 inch gaming laptop.

That's great, and I'm not complaining about the ability to do it on some computers, albeit with the minor compromises that this entails.

Generally the issues are space, reliability, speed, power-consumption and assembly costs.

Replaceable components like RAM & SSD require sockets and these are simply larger than non-socketed alternatives. In the Apple world of "light and thin" this is important. In a gaming computer that already weighs a ton and is quite thick, this added bulk of sockets are insignificant.

I'm pretty sure that soldered RAM etc. is more reliable than a socket that has mechanical contacts. I can't think of any case where my RAM or SSD has come loose, but it's a point to consider.

In the case of SoC solutions, there is clearly a performance advantage in getting everything physically closer to the CPU, and this precludes socketed DIMM for RAM. It may also be the case that socketed RAM varieties use more power (not sure if LPDDR5X is available in socketed versions?)

Lastly, it's probably cheaper to make computers that don't have precisely manufactured sockets in addition to placing them on the motherboard.

An outlier consideration is that you put the onus on consumers to know what they are doing. Do you have the right type of RAM? Is your SSD compatible with your firmware etc.? Apple likes to lock down the variables in order to maintain their brand. Imagine if someone upgrades their Mac with slow RAM and a sub-par SSD and then posts a load a poor benchmark results? It sounds petty, but in these days of social media hype and misinformation, controlling the narrative is very important.

In any case, however much I wish Apple had done something else, the fact is that they didn't. Nothing I say will change that and getting upset about it will only lead to unhappiness.

I have spent a *lot* of time as an IT professional fiddling around with computer hardware and software, and while it was educational and saved me some money, perhaps I could have spent the effort better in actually using the machines to do something more useful.

I definitely get a bit sour when I see the upgrade prices that Apple charges, but also realise that they are positioning themselves as a "premium brand" that is driven by profit. They are charging what they think their market will bear - just Capitalism 101 at work. I could just vote with my wallet and choose a Windows or Linux computer. The problem is that Apple computers are also pretty good and on-balance work better for me than other options (and I've used a lot of others over the years). So I just suck up the price and get on with life.