Is macOS Catalina Apple's Vista?

[redheeler]

They did it incrementally over ten years. I find it difficult to call that premature. We all knew it was coming.

Developers were told 32-bit apps would be phased out in spring 2018, not earlier. Some apps require extensive work to become 64-bit clean and modernized. A couple examples are EyeTV and Inkscape. Both these apps have release versions that are still 32-bit, but the developers are working on 64-bit clean beta versions.

If the announcement had been made earlier, say 2015 or 2016, I might agree with you. Three years is enough time, even for smaller developers without a lot of resources to work with. And any consumer who considered purchasing a 32-bit app during that time would be alerted by MacOS that it would stop working in the future.

Edit: An incremental phaseout would look like this:

1. Apple makes the announcement in 2015.
2. Alerts start appearing in MacOS in 2016.
3. The alerts become more aggressive in 2017.
4. In 2018, MacOS loses the ability to run 32-bit apps without changing a setting or using a simple Terminal command posted to Apple's website.
5. In 2019, finally, support disappears entirely.

 

[fisherking]

Developers were told 32-bit apps would be phased out in spring 2018, not earlier. Some apps require extensive work to become 64-bit clean and modernized. A couple examples are EyeTV and Inkscape. Both these apps have release versions that are still 32-bit, but the developers are working on 64-bit clean beta versions.

If the announcement had been made earlier, say 2015 or 2016, I might agree with you. Three years is enough time, even for smaller developers without a lot of resources to work with. And any consumer who considered purchasing a 32-bit app during that time would be alerted by MacOS that it would stop working in the future.

Edit: An incremental phaseout would look like this:

1. Apple makes the announcement in 2015.
2. Alerts start appearing in MacOS in 2016.
3. The alerts become more aggressive in 2017.
4. In 2018, MacOS loses the ability to run 32-bit apps without changing a setting or using a simple Terminal command posted to Apple's website.
5. In 2019, finally, support disappears entirely.

meanwhile, in the real world, the move to a fully-64 bit OS happened as it happened. and we live in the real world...

 

[wirefire]

At its core you have 2 different philosophies about how computer systems should progress. You have the "if it aint broke don't fix it" and "progress for the sake of progress" camps. The inherent fault in this thinking is that as long as there are people in the "progress for the sake of progress" camp, the "if it aint broke don't fix it" side will ultimately get dragged along for the ride. For example, when windows 10 was released adobe all but ended perpetual licenses for software. So now that everyone is (almost) forced to go to windows 10, that is forcing true adobe users into subscription licenses. not because the old application was bad or didn't work for them, but because of "compatibility" issues between software and OS. This isn't progress to improve the user experience. There may be small benefits but they don't merit the expense or productivity loss of having newer applications. The only place this gets murky is security and if the last 5 years have proved anything, it is that nothing is secure...

Catalina's removal of 32 bit support does little to improve the user experience. if anything it hinders it. Software companies love it... force new purchases on users. Apple marketing loves it. We are the first all 64 bit consumer OS. but the end user pays the price. both in productivity and costs. There is never a good time to make a move like this, and legacy applications are a bitch.

 

[redheeler]

meanwhile, in the real world, the move to a fully-64 bit OS happened as it happened. and we live in the real world...

If the incremental approach differs from reality, then maybe Apple's approach wasn't so incremental...

I don't understand the tendency of people on this forum to defend Apple for moves like this. I even admitted I don't think the current iteration of Catalina is a bad OS in terms of stability / performance, but this phaseout of 32-bit apps was handled improperly by Apple and with a complete disregard for consumers and developers alike. The only way it could've been worse was if support had ended in Mojave instead of Catalina.

 

[fisherking]

Catalina's removal of 32 bit support does little to improve the user experience. if anything it hinders it. Software companies love it... force new purchases on users. Apple marketing loves it. We are the first all 64 bit consumer OS. but the end user pays the price. both in productivity and costs. There is never a good time to make a move like this, and legacy applications are a bitch.

moving tech forward is what tech companies do... regardless of how you personally feel about it.
[automerge]1577290840[/automerge]

If the incremental approach differs from reality, then maybe Apple's approach wasn't so incremental...

I don't understand the tendency of people on this forum to defend Apple for moves like this. I even admitted I don't think the current iteration of Catalina is a bad OS in terms of stability / performance, but this phaseout of 32-bit apps was handled improperly by Apple and with a complete disregard for consumers and developers alike. The only way it could've been worse was if support had ended in Mojave instead of Catalina.

am not defending apple, merely stating facts... which, in the real world, take precedence over opinions, rants, whining.. and theories. just saying!

 

[honestone33]

As others have stated, Apple provided PLENTY of notice about the dropping of support for 32 bit apps. The 32 bit software I actually miss the most is Quicken 2007. Very, very easy to use. Quicken 2017 is OK, and it does the job.

 

[KALLT]

Developers were told 32-bit apps would be phased out in spring 2018, not earlier. Some apps require extensive work to become 64-bit clean and modernized. A couple examples are EyeTV and Inkscape. Both these apps have release versions that are still 32-bit, but the developers are working on 64-bit clean beta versions.

Developers were made aware in June 2017. Apple announced at the WWDC that High Sierra would be the last macOS with uncompromised 32-bit support. That is more than two years before the release of Catalina.

Just to make another point: Inkscape has a very slow development. The current stable version still requires X11/XQuartz which has not been included in macOS since Mountain Lion. The removal of 32-bit code is not even the only problem here.

At its core you have 2 different philosophies about how computer systems should progress. You have the "if it aint broke don't fix it" and "progress for the sake of progress" camps.

You also have the “reduce code complexity where possible”, “prioritise maintenance and improvement of newer code over older, obsolete code”, “use software to get the most out of the hardware” camps (I could come up with more).

Removing old code can ease the burden of the developer to maintain and test the software. It can also free up resources for other things, such as development, maintenance, improvement and testing of newer code. Sometimes, keeping backwards compatibility can hinder new technology when both cannot be reconciled. 32-bit code in particular has been nothing but a compatibility layer since 64-bit has been available across the board on macOS (kernel, libraries and apps).

 

[loby]

If the incremental approach differs from reality, then maybe Apple's approach wasn't so incremental...

I don't understand the tendency of people on this forum to defend Apple for moves like this. I even admitted I don't think the current iteration of Catalina is a bad OS in terms of stability / performance, but this phaseout of 32-bit apps was handled improperly by Apple and with a complete disregard for consumers and developers alike. The only way it could've been worse was if support had ended in Mojave instead of Catalina.

There are people who will defend Apple, including Marketing paid people who are on forums to support products and even Apple...but there are some who are more so concerned with misrepresentation as far a technology and its progress since it is an important part of their lives (some work related).

The move to all 64-bit is an eventual progression, including with all of its many benefits. Yes, companies will take the advantage of having the chance to charge for upgrades, but people have to remember that companies or developers are in the business to earn a living or make money creating great software. Not all software can be "free" and most companies and developers have to stay in business to continue to produce their software.

I am not a defender of Apple by far, but Apple has given plenty of warning concerning this. They did not have to start technically maybe with El Capitan (probably earlier with Lion) to slowly make the transition, but they gave plenty of time for everyone to adjust. Human nature will wait until the last minute and scramble to make the changes (also human nature kicks in with complaining too).

With any kind of major transition in software it comes with its many headaches, bugs and issues. I think Apple did a great job with the transition and minimized the issues. Yes, there were issues and I had mine as well (some major), but this was expected of course in the process of new things.

Overall, macOS Catalina is ok and not Windows Vista and should improve over its course of updates.

 

[TETENAL]

A couple examples are EyeTV and Inkscape. Both these apps have release versions that are still 32-bit, but the developers are working on 64-bit clean beta versions.

The 64-bit version of EyeTV is complete.

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[ProTruckDriver]

I never ran Windows Vista. I went from Windows XP to Windows 7 and now Windows 10.
As for problems running macOS Catalina 10.15.2, I don't have any problems at all. Everything running smoothly and no glitches.

 

[tommiy]

For myself, I have a number of issues that started with 10.14.6 supplementary updates. Catalina 10.15.0 & 1 fixed some of those but created 4 more for myself. (external monitor resolution, polling, internal display brightness) and an inability to utilise some free public wifi hotspots (look for public wifi issues). 10.15.2 resulted in kernel panics and reported issues associated with IPv6 address auto assignment after wake. The lack of quality and stability in the last releases provided by Apple is poor as they are creating more general issues than it appears they are solving. At least for myself. I've had Apple engineers engaged on a few of my issues as they are repeatable. However, I'm tired of waiting months for a fix only to find one thing corrected and 3 more new issues. When I get to the next release that actually works when using the MAC for business I'll be no longer upgrading. I simply can not afford the time and effort needed to dedicate to Apple to resolve their quality problems.

 

[fireboy60013]

Not as bad as vista no, but for the largest company in the world, expected to be focused on attention to detail, ios13/catalina both feel pretty rushed to me.

Almost worse is, it's not as if they really pushed the envelope on new stuff either. I mean the pace of windows 10 updates is pretty amazing and they really are adding significant stuff regularly.

For years I defended my mac book pro buying decisions with "best hardware, best OS so I'll spend the money"... but now I'm looking at my thermally throttled MBP, with noisy fans that kick in doing normal work, with a keyboard which is just awful to type on, a touchbar that removed my physical escape key, no magsafe power, no usb A and no SD slot. All that comes with a very slow to evolve OS.

Thing is, it still has good looking fonts, works properly on high dpi monitors and doesn't currently nag me about wanting to login to the cloud to do anything. (although that could be changing too).

iPadOS just isnt there for me to use as a day to day driver yet no matter how much they want me to

I have not upgraded my MacBook or iMac yet to Catalina yet, but I have just got a 12.9 inch iPad Pro and it has iPadOS 13.3 and i have a 9.7 inch first generation iPad Pro that I upgraded to iPadOS as well as my iPhone XR to iOS 13.3 and so far I love iOS 13, the only issue I have with it is the occasional mail bug where emails do nit show up, but only in my work email account and that is ok with me, I use my iPad for my job only, i will not use the supplied Microsoft surface pro at all, i cannot stand windows or anything Microsoft has.

 

[harriska2]

The 64-bit version of EyeTV is complete.

Eyetv by Geniatech: Premium TV Plattform Apple|TV|Mobile|PC

Direct from Manufacture & Designer: EyeTV Products, News, Blog, Forum & Support. Eyetv the smart TV platforms for Apple (macOS|iOS|tvOS), TV, Android & PC

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Is there hardware that runs with eyetv that takes rca for vcr and rg6 coaxial for over the air?

 

[TETENAL]

Is there hardware that runs with eyetv that takes rca for vcr and rg6 coaxial for over the air?

I don't know. Try asking the Geniatech support or ask in the EyeTV 4 beta thread in the support forum.

Eyetv 4.x for Mac 64 - bit (public beta + preview)

Blog 10: Eyetv Software for macOS 2019-12-18, Aachen - Shenzhen - Indianapolis DONE: Thank you very much for all your patience, the extraordinary support and criticism during the trial period. Today, Thursday 18.12.2019, after 15 months of development, we release our new macOS software Eyetv 4 (6...

eyetvforum.com

Some people seem to have been able to run EyeTV 4 with hardware that is not on the officially supported hardware list (which is currently quite short, but hopefully might grow over time).

 

[Aquaporin]

I am going to sound old here, but I have not been excited about a macOS update since OS X Snow Leopard back in 2009.

 

[fisherking]

I am going to sound old here, but I have not been excited about a macOS update since OS X Snow Leopard back in 2009.

not old, but sad.

advancements (both under the hood, and with apps, and functionality) are a good thing...

 

[Stoomkracht]

Yes it seems Catalina is Apples Vista including overuse of badly designed permission dialogs. UAC on windows, permissions on macOS. And worse, no way to decently manage these in a network. No whitelisting based on path or hash. And Apple forcing code signing and app approval also feels wrong. Closing an open platform. Throwing 32 bit away just for the heck of it also is a no go. Causes issues for WINE too.

 

[fisherking]

Yes it seems Catalina is Apples Vista including overuse of badly designed permission dialogs. UAC on windows, permissions on macOS. And worse, no way to decently manage these in a network. No whitelisting based on path or hash. And Apple forcing code signing and app approval also feels wrong. Closing an open platform. Throwing 32 bit away just for the heck of it also is a no go. Causes issues for WINE too.

"Throwing 32 bit away just for the heck of it also is a no go"; thanks for explaining this...

 

[honestone33]

I am going to sound old here, but I have not been excited about a macOS update since OS X Snow Leopard back in 2009.

Yes, that is my belief also. Snow Leopard is often described as the best Mac OS ever, and that is certainly accurate. No matter which new version of the Mac OS has been released since Snow Leopard, I have seen nothing that is earth shattering, or must have.

 

[vaugha]

I agree that catalina is apple’s vista. The buggiest macos as far as I remember. They were overly ambitious w/ this release.

 

[fisherking]

Yes, that is my belief also. Snow Leopard is often described as the best Mac OS ever, and that is certainly accurate. No matter which new version of the Mac OS has been released since Snow Leopard, I have seen nothing that is earth shattering, or must have.

but for those of us who want icloud sync with our data, or a streamlined music app, or a photos app that can handle large libraries... or compatibilty with modern versions of 3rd-party apps... the present is a good place to be.

snow leopard was a great moment in mac os history, but that was then, this is now...

 

[honestone33]

I agree that catalina is apple’s vista. The buggiest macos as far as I remember. They were overly ambitious w/ this release.

Again, I'll say that I am not having any issues at all with Catalina (OS 10.15.2) on either of my Macs. And that has always been the case for me. Of course, as I have said before, I typically have to wait until the .2 (and in one case, the .3) release of the new OS. But that's fine, as there is nothing earth shattering in the new OS that I must have. And Apple also irons out a lot of the bugs in the initial release.

Also, for just about every release of a new Mac OS, I see the same issues, complaints, etc. from so many folks. Yes, few of them might be due to some third party applications not behaving well, but for the majority of them, that is not the case. Also, so many of those issues are due to poor planning on the move to the new Mac OS.

 

[||\||]

I use Snow Leopard at work. It’s fine, but it feels like a toy OS in 2019. I like El Cap. It has most of the new features that matter to me. It’s pre-Siri and predates the bloat of recent releases. I like the small footprint. It can idle on about 2GB of RAM. The best of all worlds.

 

[vaugha]

Again, I'll say that I am not having any issues at all with Catalina (OS 10.15.2) on either of my Macs. And that has always been the case for me. Of course, as I have said before, I typically have to wait until the .2 (and in one case, the .3) release of the new OS. But that's fine, as there is nothing earth shattering in the new OS that I must have. And Apple also irons out a lot of the bugs in the initial release.

Also, for just about every release of a new Mac OS, I see the same issues, complaints, etc. from so many folks. Yes, few of them might be due to some third party applications not behaving well, but for the majority of them, that is not the case. Also, so many of those issues are due to poor planning on the move to the new Mac OS.

B/c you're not having issues doesn't equate to others' experiences. If you're fine, keep it that way. Just to be clear, I have not complained about any macos releases so far since 2012 except the catalina. All previous releases have been solid for me. Not this time around unfortunately. Catalina is the buggiest macos since I started using macos.

 

[Plutonius]

I think that High Sierra was the equivalent of Windows Vista until later in the cycle when Apple fixed all the problems with it.

I'm sure that Apple will also eventually fix all the issues with Catalina.

I think that the issue is more that Apple seems to be using early adopters as Beta testers of its software.

Unless people absolutely need a feature, I find it works best to delay upgrading till Apple has released multiple updates for a new version.